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Orbitball
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:44 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:47 pm 
 

Hey freaks!

How many of you picked up Death's "Spiritual Healing", "Human", "Symbolic" and "The Sound of Perseverance" albums? I'd say that they're way more captivating than the originals. A friend told me it seems like Death is more popular with Chuck being dead than being alive. I think that's true. A self-made musician that just defined death metal entirely. The earlier days i.e. "Scream Bloody Gore" and "Leprosy" I'm not that big on, just everything after that. "Spiritual Healing" right now is a favorite. I think that ITP is the best album lyrically speaking and it's remastered version gave it some justice.

Death got me into death metal way back in the 80's when I was just a teenager. It gave me a whole new realm in the perspective of a time in life when years seemed to stand still as he said in some of his lyrics. I'm not big into totally extreme bands anymore because most of them don't sing about things that don't require much thought. Sure I like Deicide's first 2 albums, but after that they got lazy and the anti-Christian and Satanic lyrics just get old. It doesn't take a lot of cognitive digesting to spew out lyrics relating to God or the devil. Who cares about that shit, can people really relate to it?

Not every band I understand can right about positive things when anger and hatred of mankind is present, this is a good thing to write about because this 21st century is full of selfish and self absorbed people. People that aren't really people, my friend and I call them "zombies" because they're so much into their phones and technology. It takes away from humanity and Death was always focused on yes, what's wrong with the world and how to solve problems with people like this way back into reflecting on "Spiritual Healing." Chuck always knew what was wrong with the world and metal bands that put out mindless lyrics.

What are your thoughts?

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AppleQueso
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:53 pm 
 

We had a thread pretty recently that talked about this:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=99916

Also, as much as I do like Death, Spiritual Healing's lyrics were baaaaad.

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androdion
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:54 pm 
 

A version of an album that has been remastered and remixed, removing elements that were part of the album and modifying many others as well, isn't how the original album sounded like. It's just the way the masses think (but do they?) the album should sound. I've heard the Relapse reissues of Human and ITP and they're fucking awful!

But that's like, you know, my opinion! :p
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Against Such Things
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:13 pm 
 

I have the Relapse Remaster of Individual Thought Patterns (2011, if there are multiple ones). It's an album that I like, but don't understand why. I'm not a stickler to what issue something is, because to me, it's about the songs. Who performs them or what the production is is of secondary importance to how it sounds.
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:23 pm 
 

The remasters are some of the better remasters I've heard recently. They retain the same feel and aura of the originals while making the albums sound clearer and more discernible. Special mention goes out to the remaster of Human, which is now my preferred way to listen to that album. They're certainly much better remasters than the Megadeth reissues, which just brickwall the shit out of the records and make them almost completely unlistenable.
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wEEman33
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:38 pm 
 

Production was never a problem on any Death album.

Following the exact same compositional structure for every song over their entire career -- minus two instrumentals -- was the problem.

Death were always talented musicians but mediocre composers.

It also doesn't help that for every different "style" of Death album, there are dozens of other bands making far superior music in that same style.

Death is a nice introductory band for people who've never listened to extreme metal, but once you've experienced the best that extreme metal has to offer, your Death albums will be collecting dust.

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Rykov
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:46 pm 
 

wEEman33 wrote:
Death is a nice introductory band for people who've never listened to extreme metal, but once you've experienced the best that extreme metal has to offer, your Death albums will be collecting dust.

Uh, speak for yourself there, buddy. I like to think of myself as 'experienced' when it comes to death metal, and I still spin The Sound of Perseverance, Human, Symbolic, and Scream Bloody Gore all the time. They're definitely not collecting any dust.
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Riffs
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:50 pm 
 

wEEman33 wrote:
Production was never a problem on any Death album.

Following the exact same compositional structure for every song over their entire career -- minus two instrumentals -- was the problem.

Death were always talented musicians but mediocre composers.

It also doesn't help that for every different "style" of Death album, there are dozens of other bands making far superior music in that same style.

Death is a nice introductory band for people who've never listened to extreme metal, but once you've experienced the best that extreme metal has to offer, your Death albums will be collecting dust.


You forgot to provide a list of extremely shitty bands that you mistakenly think are superior to Death along with your delusional post to make it standard issue.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:51 pm 
 

Yeah, really - I find that a lot of the times people who complain about "mediocre composition" usually don't know anything. Death is a good band, they broke new ground and made consistently thought provoking, interesting stuff. If you're going to tell me any modern tech death is better, well I'd just laugh at that.
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AppleQueso
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:08 pm 
 

wEEman33 wrote:
Following the exact same compositional structure for every song over their entire career -- minus two instrumentals -- was the problem.


sequence of 3-4 riffs > guitar solo > same sequence of 3-4 riffs > end

There's a bit of variation, sometimes there's an intro, sometimes there's a bridge around the guitar solo, but yeah. Very common in Death's stuff.

Once I started noticing it it kinda started driving me crazy.

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sourlows
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:54 pm 
 

Only TSOP was obvious enough in its repetitive song structures to actually annoy the hell out of me. I like all their other albums to varying degrees. I thought the Human remaster was cool, I'm not sure it's "better" than the original, but if you've been listening to the old versions since you were 15 like me, hearing a decent remaster is interesting if nothing else. I would be interested in hearing the other remasters too.

As far as Death's lyrics go, I've never been a fan.
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HenryKrinkle31
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:56 pm 
 

My only complaint = the drums on the remastered Individual Thoughts Patterns sound like fucking shit.
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Spiner202
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:04 pm 
 

I bought the ITP remaster because it's the only Death album that I couldn't enjoy because of the production. The remastered version sounds way better to me, and things are a lot clearer. I'm sure Human benefitted a lot too, but I haven't picked that one up.

Spiritual Healing has one of my favourite productions ever (as does Leprosy; snare drum and all), and I'd be a bit worried to hear how those turned out. For me, I have no reason to buy an album twice, and certainly not buying an entire band's catalogue twice. ITP was an exception only because I know the songs were great, I just wasn't enjoying them much.

sourlows wrote:
Only TSOP was obvious enough in its repetitive song structures to actually annoy the hell out of me. I like all their other albums to varying degrees.

I agree. Chuck was a brilliant songwriter, but his lack of variation in song structure really hurt the band as the songs began to get longer and longer. I still like TSOP a lot, but the songs are a bit long.
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The Lions Den
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:04 pm 
 

Please stop with this threads.

We talk about this shitty reissue just one week ago.
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HenryKrinkle31
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:13 pm 
 

Spiner202 wrote:
I bought the ITP remaster because it's the only Death album that I couldn't enjoy because of the production. The remastered version sounds way better to me, and things are a lot clearer.


The original ITP was perfect. Loved how loud the bass is in the mix.

The remaster is so bad, if I purchased it, I would literally throw it away.
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AYearInExile
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Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:47 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:25 pm 
 

wEEman33 wrote:
Production was never a problem on any Death album.

Following the exact same compositional structure for every song over their entire career -- minus two instrumentals -- was the problem.

Death were always talented musicians but mediocre composers.

It also doesn't help that for every different "style" of Death album, there are dozens of other bands making far superior music in that same style.

Death is a nice introductory band for people who've never listened to extreme metal, but once you've experienced the best that extreme metal has to offer, your Death albums will be collecting dust.


Very nicely put. The exact thoughts that I had about the band. After listening to most of their discography I tend to disagree with the last point you made though. I'm glad nobody introduced Death to me when I started out.

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Smalley
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:59 pm 
 

HenryKrinkle31 wrote:
The original ITP was perfect. Loved how loud the bass is in the mix.

The remaster is so bad, if I purchased it, I would literally throw it away.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the ITP remaster was BAD, just pointless; even now 2 decades later, the original master of that record sounds absolutely, crystal-perfect to my ears. It really can not be any more perfect, and any changes at all are just fated to make it worse in one way or another.
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wEEman33
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:10 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:
You forgot to provide a list of extremely shitty bands that you mistakenly think are superior to Death along with your delusional post to make it standard issue.

"Death/Thrash" style

Demos/Scream Bloody Gore < Possessed "Seven Churches"
Leprosy < Morbid Angel "Altars of Madness"

"Mid-Paced Death Metal" style

Spiritual Healing < Obituary "Cause of Death"

"Progressive Death Metal" style

Human < Cynic '90 - '91 demos
Individual Thought Patterns < Atheist "Unquestionable Presence"

"Progressive Heavy Metal" style

Symbolic < King Diamond "Abigail"
Sound of Perseverance < Voivod "Dimension Hatröss"

Compositionally, all of those albums run circles around the standard Death songwriting formula that never changed, even as the band's collective instrumental skill grew.

It also doesn't help Death's listenability that the quality of Chuck's vocals was never the greatest, with the vocals becoming more annoying and more grating with each Death album.

Death would have benefited greatly from hiring a full-time vocalist and letting Chuck focus on guitars. That way the band's vocal phrasing could have advanced beyond simply being chained to the riffs' rhythm all the time.


Last edited by wEEman33 on Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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HenryKrinkle31
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:22 pm 
 

That was hilarious.
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Brutality_Junkie
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Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:04 am
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:14 pm 
 

wEEman33 wrote:
Leprosy < Morbid Angel "Altars of Madness"


You didn't just compare 'Altars Of Madness' to 'Leprosy'. You couldn't have. I mean...really?

This; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P8jQMfnOaU

Sounds nothing like this, compositionally or otherwise; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYYUR21_G9c

That's like criticizing 'Dawn Of Possession' for not sounding enough like 'Onward To Golgotha'.

wEEman33 wrote:
"Progressive Death Metal" style

Individual Thought Patterns < Atheist "Unquestionable Presence"


Another completely bullshit comparison. 'Individual Thought Patterns' sucks because it isn't soaked in jazz-fusion influences like Atheist? Get serious.

wEEman33 wrote:
"Progressive Heavy Metal" style

Symbolic < King Diamond "Abigail"


:durr:

OK, that does it. Anyone who thinks 'Abigail' and 'Symbolic' are in the same style of metal is deaf, retarded, a troll or all three simultaneously.

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androdion
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:22 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
The remasters are some of the better remasters I've heard recently. They retain the same feel and aura of the originals while making the albums sound clearer and more discernible.

Historical revisionism much?!

I'd go as far as to say that the remaster of ITP is that bad. In fact it's so unbearably wrong that I just can't understand why people like that. Maybe it's because it has a clinically clean sound. No, it's because it sounds sterile. Wait, maybe it's because it sounds lifeless. Nah, it must be because they lowered the level on the guitars.

I could go on for a while but I'll leave it at that.

By the way wEEman33, one word for you: :getout:
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dreadmeat
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:40 pm 
 

I'm flicking off some represses at the moment, I’m not 100% sure they aren't remastered too though :scratch:
If I get some originals while I still have these I’ll be able to compare them, they do seem a bit louder but I have no basis for comparison.
Actually I just sent the remastered reissue Digipak of Spiritual Healing to someone as part of a trade deal, killer album! my favourite of theirs :metal:
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XcKyle93
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:53 pm 
 

I can't believe that some people would write off a remaster without giving it an honest shot, i.e. not thinking it's going to suck from the outset. Perhaps this is because I am not an audiophile, but sometimes I have great difficulty discerning between an original and remaster, besides the obvious fact that the latter is usually at least slightly louder.

I haven't listened to all of the Death remasters, but I may say, as a bassist, I was very satisfied with Human. The bass is up there in the mix like it was originally supposed to be, so I have no qualms about "inauthenticity" or whatever qualms some of you guys have. Of course, this is simply my opinion :).
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androdion
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:58 pm 
 

I see what you did there. ;)

I don't have issues with remasters per se, but remixes?! That's a whole different thing. The whole deifying of those remixes (let's call them that) is something that's beyond me. That's all. I think it was Turner who made an extensive post in the other thread, but he (she?) was basically saying that if you're hearing a remix of an album then you're not listening to its original form. A remaster is just louder or less muddy, but a remix changes the way the album actually sounds.

Homework for you will be to hear the original version of Arcturus' Aspera Hiems Symfonia and compare it to the remixed version present in this compilation. Come back to me after you did that and we can talk further. :p
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:44 pm 
 

I think the Human, Symbolic and TSOP reissues were good to excellent. Human in particular benefits from higher bass on the mix, more balanced mix and better drum sound overall. Even if I have every Death album in its original release, I consider Human now to be superior in terms of sound that the original one (and I was there when it came out and I own it ever since), since the album retains its heaviness and atmosphere but upgrading some stuff.

Also, the bass and drums tracks added on the 3rd disc are fucking awesome.

androdion wrote:

Homework for you will be to hear the original version of Arcturus' Aspera Hiems Symfonia and compare it to the remixed version present in this compilation. Come back to me after you did that and we can talk further. :p


That album received a similar treat than the Death reissues; it was remixed, remastered and even they used some pieces recorded but discarded from the original sessions AND re-recorded some stuff (like the cleans on Wintry Grey, the last paragraph of Who Thou, the entire Bodkin and the Quietus, etc).
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dreadmeat
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:46 pm 
 

I suppose the vinyl reissues sound different again, right?
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XcKyle93
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:54 pm 
 

Whoops, I fudged remasters vs. remixes! Sorry! Unless you consider remaster to be an all-encompassing term...
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:46 pm 
 

wEEman33 wrote:
"Death/Thrash" style
Leprosy < Morbid Angel "Altars of Madness"


You really think that the sluggish crawl mixed with mid-paced death metal of Leprosy is stylistically comparable to the chaotic, really thrashy style of Altars of Madness? You couldn't possibly come up with a more far-fetched comparison without trying to just be ridiculous... or maybe...

wEEman33 wrote:
"Progressive Heavy Metal" style
Symbolic < King Diamond "Abigail"


:lol:

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Zero_Nowhere
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:44 pm 
 

androdion wrote:
I see what you did there. ;)

I don't have issues with remasters per se, but remixes?! That's a whole different thing. The whole deifying of those remixes (let's call them that) is something that's beyond me. That's all. I think it was Turner who made an extensive post in the other thread, but he (she?) was basically saying that if you're hearing a remix of an album then you're not listening to its original form. A remaster is just louder or less muddy, but a remix changes the way the album actually sounds.


That isn't always a bad thing though.

There's a number of albums out there where even the band themselves thinks the result sucks compared to the later remix (Nevermore's Enemies of Reality is the big example everyone goes back to, but by no means the only one).

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AppleQueso
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:20 am 
 

I was gonna say that you could definitely make a strong case for something like Atheist being better than Death's more proggy/tech-y stuff, but comparing Leprosy to Altars? What?

Call me crazy, but I can honestly kind of see the Symbolic/King Diamond comparison. Not just because of Andy LaRocque either.

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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:21 am 
 

androdion wrote:
A version of an album that has been remastered and remixed, removing elements that were part of the album and modifying many others as well, isn't how the original album sounded like. It's just the way the masses think (but do they?) the album should sound. I've heard the Relapse reissues of ITP and they're fucking awful!



Agreed. Maybe one reason why I hate it was that I heard the original. On the remastered the drums are way too fucking loud.

I have the original versions of...actually all of them except Symbolic and they all sounded damn good as is. Hell the only thing you need to do them is louden them up alot so they can compete with the kiddies Job For A Cowboy and Slipknot and what have you. I haven't listened to Symbolic in a while but I never noticed how the drums bury everything else in the mix.

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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:44 am 
 

sourlows wrote:
Only TSOP was obvious enough in its repetitive song structures to actually annoy the hell out of me. I like all their other albums to varying degrees.


Funny, Symbolic was where I really started noticing the repeated structures but I also had the bias of The Sound of Perseverance being my first Death album. Either way, the riffs and vocal lines were generally good enough on all of their albums for me to not care about it. I gave Leprosy a good listen earlier this week but Perseverance and Human are easily my favorites.
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BarryLamarBonds
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:56 am 
 

AppleQueso wrote:
I was gonna say that you could definitely make a strong case for something like Atheist being better than Death's more proggy/tech-y stuff, but comparing Leprosy to Altars? What?

Call me crazy, but I can honestly kind of see the Symbolic/King Diamond comparison. Not just because of Andy LaRocque either.


LaRocque was on ITP, not Symbolic.

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AppleQueso
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:34 am 
 

BarryLamarBonds wrote:
AppleQueso wrote:
I was gonna say that you could definitely make a strong case for something like Atheist being better than Death's more proggy/tech-y stuff, but comparing Leprosy to Altars? What?

Call me crazy, but I can honestly kind of see the Symbolic/King Diamond comparison. Not just because of Andy LaRocque either.


LaRocque was on ITP, not Symbolic.


:durr:

Oops, you're right. Still, I can kinda see the comparison.

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joppek
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:25 am 
 

i think i'm a lot more indifferent to these than most here seem to be
sure the human reissue sounds a bit better than the original, but it's not like the original had an actual problem with the production - none of the original death albums do, apart from leprosy; i'm really looking forward to hearing that album with the snare fixed
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MagnusTheRed
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:19 am 
 

I have the Symbolic remaster, which I find to be nice. The remasters does well with their later work. Remastering Scream Bloody Gore however I'm not so sure about. I'd prefer that to stay raw considering the style of the album.

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androdion
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:26 pm 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
androdion wrote:

Homework for you will be to hear the original version of Arcturus' Aspera Hiems Symfonia and compare it to the remixed version present in this compilation. Come back to me after you did that and we can talk further. :p


That album received a similar treat than the Death reissues; it was remixed, remastered and even they used some pieces recorded but discarded from the original sessions AND re-recorded some stuff (like the cleans on Wintry Grey, the last paragraph of Who Thou, the entire Bodkin and the Quietus, etc).

Well yeah, that was my whole point right there. Anyone who has heard the original AHS recording should feel offended by that butchering they did later on. I know I do!
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:53 pm 
 

androdion wrote:
Well yeah, that was my whole point right there. Anyone who has heard the original AHS recording should feel offended by that butchering they did later on. I know I do!


(OT) I like the 'new' grim vocals. They sound way more vicious, just like he did on Borknagar's The Olden Domain. If he re-recorded those vocals, there was no point on not screaming on The Sham Mirrors and asking Ihsahn to do it for Radical Cut (it was Sverd's request to feature Ihsahn-like vocals on that song, so Garm called him instead doing the job by himself). AHS 2002 sounds more metal and less atmospheric for sure.
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Dudemanguy
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Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:19 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:57 pm 
 

I never really got the complaints about Death recycling their same song structure. Sure, it may not be ideal for progressive band, but tons of metal bands use the same basic song structure repeatedly anyways. Death's cycle of riffs were always fresh and sounded great to me, so hearing them being repeated again is not an issue for me by any means.

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Jasper92
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Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:39 am
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:39 pm 
 

I think I like the cycle of riffs. Nice, progressive riffs with some odd time signatures but still grooving and a bit predictable in terms of the cycles. I like that.
I've got Human and Spiritual Healing as remasters. I think they are pretty good. Especially the SH imo.
I've got ITP as an original. And I don't think I want to get the remaster because I think it already sounds excellent.
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