Interesting you bring it up, because I actually just finished reading a book on the culture of heavy metal that was released in the early 2000s (I think). It mostly talked about the lifestyle that was common in the eighties and nineties, which at the time, I think LGBT was far less acceptable in the community.

Toxic masculinity is bullshit because alot of the traits that (presumably) define it aren't inherently bad/negative since it depends all on context, which of course gets ignored.
Then again neither homophobia or violence are an exclusively male trait. But that's just obvious.

I've explained why it's inconsistent

I often wonder why we don't hear much about toxic femininity when women are really cruel to each other. Honestly I wish people would label shitty behavior as just shitty behavior but that's just me.

I often wonder why we don't hear much about toxic femininity when women are really cruel to each other. Honestly I wish people would label shitty behavior as just shitty behavior but that's just me.

I often wonder why we don't hear much about toxic femininity when women are really cruel to each other. Honestly I wish people would label shitty behavior as just shitty behavior but that's just me.

it's not uncommon to come across prejudice scum

The only issue I have with it is that bands can talk and lyricize about killing infants and raping god knows what, and people look to it as "lol brutal", but as soon as a band that espouses National Socialism or wanting to preserve traditions and whatnot, everyone goes bat shit crazy.

It's the age old question of seperating the artist from his music. People will talk on Varg all they want and lie about what he has to say and create a false impression, while at the same time defending the "shock" in a lot of grindcore/brutal death metal bands as "br00tal man !!"

Personally I don't give a shit what the band does or thinks or writes in their lyrics, or how they live their lifestyles, but I am willing to point out the hypocrisy that if a band is remotely right wing in their lyrics the community regards them as being "evil" for legit nothing

Indeed. And it wasn't Varg that created some sort of anti-alternative sexuality sentiment in metal. His music is not political. Honestly, neither is most NSBM. I mean, if a band's lyrical themes consist of exalting in native traditions and landscapes (in other words, nationalistic in an apolitical sense), or if they have a very prideful and pagan feel to their music, or if their lyrical themes consist of Heideggerian philosophy or something of that nature, they're going to be called Nazis. The vast majority of what's called NS is not Hitlerian or openly political in any sense. Now, if critics want to go down the whole personal history and political affiliation rabbithole, the problem is that it's usually coming from Westerners looking admonishingly at Eastern European bands. This is a particularly arrogant Western trait - applying our moral and political standards to others, and it appears especially arrogant to me when those attitudes are being directed against people from countries that have actually endured Communism! I just feel like telling some of these people that Estonians and Ukrainians are not going to have the same social and political sensitivities as Canadians, so do let's try to understand where people are coming from and get off your high horse.

No, if anyone in the scene created hostility toward gays, it would probably be guys like Nodveidt who murdered one for no reason! And nobody calls Dissection an NS band. Hell, they don't even call them homophobic! But I'd bet they are. And, if you start surveying the social opinions of bands from, say, Indonesia, I'm sure you'd hear many opinions that modern Westerners would consider transgressive.

By the way, has anyone considered the possibility that someone could be both gay AND a Nazi? I'm kinda making a joke here, but Gaahl definitely has some strong anti-egalitarian opinions.

I like how in his attempts to say that toxic masculinity is bullshit, he ends up just defining the traits of toxic masculinity. Yeah, it's mostly stuff that in certain contexts is OK, that's kind of the point. It's certain aspects of "masculinity" that have been twisted and become toxic, hence the name.

I like how some bad behaivours (which *AGAIN* are not male exclusive) magically became "certain aspect of masculinity".
The point is is that those behaivours are not gender specific.

I like how some bad behaivours (which *AGAIN* are not male exclusive) magically became "certain aspect of masculinity".
The point is is that those behaivours are not gender specific.

Are you okay with the talibans and the average people in Saudi Arabia? After all, they don't have the same sensibilities like Western Europeans. Maybe it's okay the way they treat women and lgbt people. Who are we to tell them what to do? You can call me an arrogant but I don't fall to that double standard argument. If it's not okay in Canada, it's not okay there too. Do you really think that people in those place have that kind of double standard? No, they think that the west is decadent and they will be happy if the west fall. Yes, some were gays and Nazi. One of the chiefs of the SA was gay but he was executed by Hitler. But I don't think it's the majority of the lgbt are Nazi because usually they are persecuted by them. Sure some are on the right economically but it's no different than cisgender heterosexual people.

I suppose if you thought NSBM was just Skrewdriver with Black Metal riffing, maybe you could make this analogy to the Taliban. But when bands like Drudkh and Hate Forest are lumped into the NSBM label when there's absolutely nothing political or hostile to any ethnic group or sexual minority in their messaging, it sure seems like a stretch to me. I think you're missing my point. I was saying that when people call those bands NS, they're not referencing their music, but rather their political associations and personal history. I'm saying that the personal history and political affiliations of the members of bands like those are going to differ significantly in the Ukraine from the types of political associations the average person would have in the West. It's not exactly going to be very difficult to find Eastern Europeans who have personal associations with those of far right wing opinions, without actually having those opinions.

Hate Forest used to sell a shirt with the face of Roman Shukhevych who was a one-time ally of Nazi Germany and one of the organizers of the Halych-Volhyn massacre in which 100,000 poles were assassinated. I'm sorry but you are wrong about the "nothing political or hostile to any ethnic group or sexual minority" part of your post.

When I hear LGBT, what comes to my mind is a person obsessed with materialism. An obsession with perversion and what they are called. Should we also hold up foot fetishists as great overcomers of adversity?

I will ask, "On what basis should I care about these LGBT people in metal?" I say that without a standard by which to judge the good from the bad, the truth from the lies, all we have is propaganda, and I wish it to stay in the confines of crappy generic pretenders.

When I hear LGBT, what comes to my mind is a person obsessed with materialism. An obsession with perversion and what they are called. Should we also hold up foot fetishists as great overcomers of adversity?

I will not celebrate a community full of thought policing, mutilation, and brainwashing.

Then there's something horribly wrong with you and you're either a troll or an incredibly broken person. Either way, you should probably not post stuff like this because of how obviously terrible it is.

I fail to see even more why this should be discussed on a metal forums main board anyways.

Unlike yourself ;-P just because someone doesn't approve or like something, for whatever reason, bad experiences, prejudice, religion, whatever, labeling them scum, without actually knowing their reasons makes you pretty ignorant yourself. Do you only have friends who agree on everything? It's the same simplistic outlook that some of the people you call scum have really.

Just so we're clear - blatant homophobia isn't permitted here. Like for racism and misogyny, I do not consider these "viewpoints" worth debating. I do not consider the humanity and dignity of women, minorities and LGBT people to be debatable. If you feel otherwise, feel free to fuck off to some alt-right cesspool somewhere. There's plenty of places like that all over the internet, but this ain't one of them.



No. There is no excuse in this day and age to be homophobic. Especially not someone with an internet connection.

To explore the reasons why people have issues with homosexuality isn't the same as excusing it. It's actually necessary if you want to change someone's mind to understand the reasons for their thinking. To simply call them scum, millions of people, large parts of the planet really, isn't exactly going to open them up to one's ideas.

You generally don't get people to abandon their homophobia by arguing with them over the internet, and we have no obligation to lower the quality of our forum experience by keeping these people around so that maybe they'll change their minds.

it's not all that helpful, nor does it make you look much better than the people that you have an issue with, if you label them all scum, even if there are millions of them, many different reasons and some might not even consciously choose to feel weird about homosexuality (as they were brought up that way, have issues with sex, might have issues with having gay phantasies but can't allow them due to their upbringing, religion, etc). It's just more generalizing, which we generally don't see as the way to go these days. I'm not a Jedi but it may well be the path to the darkside.