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Europedday
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:36 pm
Posts: 20
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:54 am 
 

Now I know this is a very heated subject but in my opinion in this category is Black Sabbath why? Because of their heaviness and dark subject matter. Type away metalheads

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Razor_Shark
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:55 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:59 am 
 

According to Metallum it is Deep Purple.
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DeathForBlitzkrieg
A Dead Man's Robe

Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:23 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:05 am 
 

Razor_Shark wrote:
According to Metallum it is Deep Purple.


Just because they formed a year earlier? Don't be ridiculous. Deep Purple's most metal albums came significantly later than Black Sabbath's debut.
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Razor_Shark
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:55 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Albania
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:09 am 
 

DeathForBlitzkrieg wrote:
Razor_Shark wrote:
According to Metallum it is Deep Purple.


Just because they formed a year earlier? Don't be ridiculous. Deep Purple's most metal albums came significantly later than Black Sabbath's debut.


I guess I should have gone into more detail, I honestly think that the Kinks made the first heavy metal song, and that Blue Cheer was the first metal band.
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Void_Eater
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:09 pm
Posts: 577
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:12 am 
 

Razor_Shark wrote:
DeathForBlitzkrieg wrote:
Razor_Shark wrote:
According to Metallum it is Deep Purple.


Just because they formed a year earlier? Don't be ridiculous. Deep Purple's most metal albums came significantly later than Black Sabbath's debut.


I guess I should have gone into more detail, I honestly think that the Kinks made the first heavy metal song, and that Blue Cheer was the first metal band.


Blue cheer may have been far heavier then any bands of their time, but I never hear actual metal riffs in their songs.
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Young_Metalhead wrote:
Yeah, what's not to love about them? That's like the most metal thing to be, a little satanic animal worshipping the antichrist.

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WebOfPiss
Myopic Void

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:17 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:15 am 
 

That's because they're a blues rock band.

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Oxenkiller
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:18 am 
 

Blue Cheer, along with The Stooges, the MC5 and maybe one or two other bands, were the PRECURSORS to what would evolve into heavy metal. These bands weren't metal in and of themselves, but heavy metal would evolve from the sound that these bands pioneered. Led Zeppelin were of course instrumental in the evolution of metal, without being a metal band themselves, per se.

First ever? I would have to agree that would be Black Sabbath. With the exception of a couple hugely underground (and largely unheard) compositions that came out in the late 1960's, "Black Sabbath" (the song) was by far the heaviest, most intense music in existance at that time. Deep Purple are also at the forefront of the heavy metal timeline. They may have formed before Black Sabbath but their first album that could be classified as metal ("In Rock") did not come out until after the first Sabbath album.

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WebOfPiss
Myopic Void

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:17 pm
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Location: Presidio Modelo
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:20 am 
 

The title track still really isn't a metal song and the debut is not a metal album.

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Void_Eater
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:09 pm
Posts: 577
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:23 am 
 

WebOfPiss wrote:
The title track still really isn't a metal song and the debut is not a metal album.


How is the title track to Black Sabbath's debut not metal?
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Young_Metalhead wrote:
Yeah, what's not to love about them? That's like the most metal thing to be, a little satanic animal worshipping the antichrist.

iamntbatman wrote:
Oblarg wrote:
Fuckin' irony; how does that work?

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WebOfPiss
Myopic Void

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:17 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:24 am 
 

Where are the metal riffs? That's the heart of metal and the tritone one alone doesn't account for it.

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AblackanatioN
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:36 am
Posts: 156
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:25 am 
 

Black Sabbath. This discussion has been done to death, but I think that most metalheads would agree. It's always interesting to hear the evolution of metal from early hard rock bands though. Chances are if you're a fan of Sabbath you will enjoy some of the other bands mentioned already.

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MercyfulKing
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 384
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:26 am 
 

Lucifers Friend :)
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Orange_Gem
Eats fæces for YOUR freedom

Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:52 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:33 am 
 

WebOfPiss wrote:
Where are the metal riffs? That's the heart of metal and the tritone one alone doesn't account for it.


It's the template doom metal riff. First metal= Black Sabbath by Black Sabbath.

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WebOfPiss
Myopic Void

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:17 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:46 am 
 

No. The tritone is used pretty sparingly (in comparison to blues and minor riffs) throughout the classic doom bands. I mean, hell, Sabbath never really featured it so prominently after that one example. Hardly what one could call a template if it's rarely followed.

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TheUglySoldier
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 3:44 am
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:53 am 
 

I hate this question. Defining the first metal band is like defining the first rock n' roll song, it's all largely problematic. Part of this is that everyone has their own opinion on it, and part of it being that music doesn't just pop into existence but gradually evolves over time. Defining the very point it stopped being blues or rock n' roll or whatever and started being metal is almost unanswerable, and why does it really matter? What's more important is who was YOUR first metal band.

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MercyfulKing
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 384
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:10 am 
 

TheUglySoldier wrote:
I hate this question. Defining the first metal band is like defining the first rock n' roll song, it's all largely problematic. Part of this is that everyone has their own opinion on it, and part of it being that music doesn't just pop into existence but gradually evolves over time. Defining the very point it stopped being blues or rock n' roll or whatever and started being metal is almost unanswerable, and why does it really matter? What's more important is who was YOUR first metal band.
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DrommerOmDod
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:40 am
Posts: 522
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:22 am 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
With the exception of a couple hugely underground (and largely unheard) compositions that came out in the late 1960's.


Would you mind posting a few of those, if there's any available on youtube or whatever? I have a huge interest in that kind of thing (as do 90% of the people on this board, I've noticed).
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KingMaker
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:30 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:44 am 
 

History will say (and already has basically said) Black Sabbath, so what you all think is irrelevant :p
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Last edited by KingMaker on Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DunnRiffHorror_EHSB
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:47 pm
Posts: 489
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:50 am 
 

DrommerOmDod wrote:
Oxenkiller wrote:
With the exception of a couple hugely underground (and largely unheard) compositions that came out in the late 1960's.


Would you mind posting a few of those, if there's any available on youtube or whatever? I have a huge interest in that kind of thing (as do 90% of the people on this board, I've noticed).


Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exYgyajkjsI

Ton of excellent bands in that vid.
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Orange_Gem
Eats fæces for YOUR freedom

Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:52 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:04 am 
 

WebOfPiss wrote:
No. The tritone is used pretty sparingly (in comparison to blues and minor riffs) throughout the classic doom bands. I mean, hell, Sabbath never really featured it so prominently after that one example. Hardly what one could call a template if it's rarely followed.


It might not always (or usually) be the tritone, but the riffing style and timbre is a template for doom. Some songs by bands like Angel Witch and Trouble do seemingly direct variations of that exact riff, as well.

Also, on the debut you have The Wizard, another pretty metallic song.

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Musick
Wicker Mantis

Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:43 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:14 am 
 

its 2011!

learn to recognize a troll you wannabe intellectual noobs! :roll:
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WebOfPiss
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:17 am 
 

Could've used Saint Vitus's "H.A.A.G." to back yourself up, but even that that's one of a very limited number of times that they used it in comparison to not using it.

Do you even know what timbre and riffing style are? To say the timbre and riffing style of that song is representative of a style of music is a farce. Not all doom is slow, not all is comprised of an arpeggiated melody, not all is wah inflected, not all is mostly treble based tone...

The Wizard may have that one riff (again!) (I'd argue it's a hard rock riff [the fills, phrasing, and little notes popping up here and there are even more indication]), but even so, claiming the debut is the first metal album is inane. Master of Reality is the starting point for their metal work and even that is interrupted by interludes.

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fetalfeast
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:08 pm
Posts: 1573
Location: Logan, UT
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:20 am 
 

KingMaker wrote:
History will say (and already has basically said) Black Sabbath, so what you all think is irrelevant :p

History(according to the mainstream) will also say that Slipknot was the greatest metal band of our generation. Do you believe them?
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MrMcThrasher
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:04 pm
Posts: 95
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:48 am 
 

Universally it's Black Sabbath.
You could argue for Blue Cheer though. Their first couple of albums were heavy for their time.

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WebOfPiss
Myopic Void

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:17 pm
Posts: 2907
Location: Presidio Modelo
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:52 am 
 

Heavy=/= metal.

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Orange_Gem
Eats fæces for YOUR freedom

Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:52 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:01 am 
 

WebOfPiss wrote:
Could've used Saint Vitus's "H.A.A.G." to back yourself up, but even that that's one of a very limited number of times that they used it in comparison to not using it.

Do you even know what timbre and riffing style are? To say the timbre and riffing style of that song is representative of a style of music is a farce. Not all doom is slow, not all is comprised of an arpeggiated melody, not all is wah inflected, not all is mostly treble based tone...

The Wizard may have that one riff (again!) (I'd argue it's a hard rock riff [the fills, phrasing, and little notes popping up here and there are even more indication]), but even so, claiming the debut is the first metal album is inane. Master of Reality is the starting point for their metal work and even that is interrupted by interludes.


Yeah, I know what I'm saying.

It seems very strange that if you reject the debut as metal, you would jump to Master of Reality as their first metal release. What about Paranoid? Pretty overtly metal album right there, admittedly much more so than most the debut after the first song.

And since when does having interludes make something less metal?

But anyway, think about it. Doesn't 70's Black Sabbath fit perfectly right next to Pentagram, Witchfinder General, Pagan Altar, Trouble, etc.?

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ENKC
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:28 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:53 am 
 

Sabbath weren't alone at that time in having metal moments (Led Zep, SLB, Purple etc), but they were the only one to be undeniably metal for the majority of their recorded output. Hell, Sabbath defines what heavy metal is for freak's sake.
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Twin_guitar_attack
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:27 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:11 am 
 

DunnRiffHorror_EHSB wrote:
DrommerOmDod wrote:
Oxenkiller wrote:
With the exception of a couple hugely underground (and largely unheard) compositions that came out in the late 1960's.


Would you mind posting a few of those, if there's any available on youtube or whatever? I have a huge interest in that kind of thing (as do 90% of the people on this board, I've noticed).


Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exYgyajkjsI

Ton of excellent bands in that vid.


Fucking hell that post is amazing! Thanks so much for that, nearly all of those bands are fantastic.
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plasticpope
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:02 am
Posts: 318
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:38 am 
 

Oh if I had a dollar...
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AngelWitch666
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:38 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:44 am 
 

In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida

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Maddolis
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:44 am
Posts: 73
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:58 am 
 

WebOfPiss wrote:
Where are the metal riffs? That's the heart of metal and the tritone one alone doesn't account for it.


So what about the drone-doom songs that have no riffs whatsoever?

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Twin_guitar_attack
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:27 am
Posts: 1400
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:59 am 
 

Maddolis wrote:
WebOfPiss wrote:
Where are the metal riffs? That's the heart of metal and the tritone one alone doesn't account for it.


So what about the drone-doom songs that have no riffs whatsoever?


I wouldn't count drone doom bands at metal. Sunn o))) and Boris for example are heavy as fuck but theres bugger all thats metallic about it, in my view anyway.
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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
Posts: 9725
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:55 am 
 

WebOfPiss wrote:
Master of Reality is the starting point for their metal work and even that is interrupted by interludes.

Whoa now, I was more or less with you up until this point, but Paranoid is definitely a metal album.
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AmonKnight
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:28 am
Posts: 122
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:19 pm 
 

"Sister Ray" by The Velvet Underground from the White Light/White Heat album.

Though it may not be the first heavy metal band, "Sister Ray" definitely is the best, most heavy proto-heavy metal song from their time, in my opinion. It makes "Helter Skelter" sound like fucking elevator music!
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Twisted_Psychology
Veteran

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:11 pm 
 

Didn't the Scorpions form in 1965? That makes them the oldest metal band in my eyes, even if they didn't release a metal album for a while.
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KingMaker
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:30 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:18 pm 
 

fetalfeast wrote:
KingMaker wrote:
History will say (and already has basically said) Black Sabbath, so what you all think is irrelevant :p

History(according to the mainstream) will also say that Slipknot was the greatest metal band of our generation. Do you believe them?


No, it wont. Slipknot was pretty obviously a fad and will be forgotten in another 5 years at most.
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Gelal
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:42 am
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Location: Spain
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:36 pm 
 

KingMaker wrote:
fetalfeast wrote:
KingMaker wrote:
History will say (and already has basically said) Black Sabbath, so what you all think is irrelevant :p

History(according to the mainstream) will also say that Slipknot was the greatest metal band of our generation. Do you believe them?


No, it wont. Slipknot was pretty obviously a fad and will be forgotten in another 5 years at most.


People said that 5 years ago too. Just saying.
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Gelseth_Andrano
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:38 pm 
 

KingMaker wrote:
fetalfeast wrote:
KingMaker wrote:
History will say (and already has basically said) Black Sabbath, so what you all think is irrelevant :p

History(according to the mainstream) will also say that Slipknot was the greatest metal band of our generation. Do you believe them?


No, it wont. Slipknot was pretty obviously a fad and will be forgotten in another 5 years at most.


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AngelWitch666
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:38 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:59 pm 
 

Meh...
I'd rather listen to the 1980s crossover band of the same name. At least that one was better.

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MetalHeadNorm
Metalhead

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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:07 pm 
 

It's obviously sabbath. Their debut is a masterpiece stuck somewhere between blues, psychedelic rock and (what was yet to be) metal and they quickly followed it up with Paranoid which was what I think what most people could agree the first LP that was metal through and through.

Discussion over.
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