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Noctir
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:17 am
Posts: 376
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:02 pm 
 

During the course of another thread, I mentioned Quorthon admitting to being influenced by Venom and someone asked for proof. I finally found the interview I was looking for, which was much earlier than I thought it was.

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/pa ... ilight.htm

The particular quote that seems to make this obvious is this:

"I don't think there are any similarities musically between Venom and Bathory at all. But I do think 'Black Metal' - which I heard for the first time 3 months after we formed Bathory - is one of the best albums ever made because it has genuine feeling. At that time there was no speed or thrash around, so Venom were very unique, even though they wimped out later on and spoiled the whole thing. I mean 'At War With Satan' and 'Possessed' are shit compared to Black metal'.

Earlier in the same interview, when asked when the band was formed, he said March 1983. Okay, three months after March 1983 would have been June 1983. So, here, in an interview from 1987, he is saying that he heard Venom for the first time, before recording the first Bathory album. It wasn't until June 1984 until the band entered the studio to record the self-titled debut. This was a full year after hearing Venom for the first time and deciding that Black Metal was one of the best albums ever made.

Also, here is an excerpt from a 1988 interview:

"Well, I listened to Motorhead and Venom. Venom call us dickheads you know, but that doesn't bother us, 'cos we're bigger. The comparison comes from the fact that there are 3 of us, 2 have black hair and one is blond, and we wear leather and chains."

It isn't as if any of this is news. I mean, anyone with a brain can see the song titles, like "Sacrifice" and "Raise the Dead", that were lifted from Venom, as Quorthon said, he heard Black Metal a year earlier and was fully aware that these song titles had been used by Venom. Let's not forget "In Conspiracy With Satan" which is, of course, inspired by Venom's "In League With Satan". It isn't a bad thing to be inspired by Venom. Many bands were. Many of them went on to be influential in their own rights, such as Slayer, Hellhammer and so on. It just always seemed ridiculous, in the earlier interviews, when he claimed to know nothing of Venom until long after the first album. Bathory took what Venom created and perfected it, and Quorthon should have been proud of that achievement. At any rate, I think it was later on that the claim changed to not hearing them until after the debut was released, which is quite different than what was said a decade and a half earlier.

And, just for the Hell of it, here's more plagiarism from the first Bathory album:

"I gasp for air
I scream for sight
and fight against torment and dread
Calling the vengeance
I tear at the lid and
promise to raise from the dead"

- Bathory, 1984

And the original source for this:

"My lungs gasp for air, my eyes scream for sight
I promise the rise of my body this night"

"I tear at the lid, my fingers they bleed"

- Venom, 1982
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Last edited by Noctir on Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Nolan_B
In League With Nolan

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:17 pm 
 

Wow, never noticed the lyric similarities. Let it be known that Bathory was NEVER a Venom clone, though. I've heard many people say that the first album was exactly the same as Welcome to Hell.

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LordOfTerror
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 7:33 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:23 pm 
 

Nolan_B wrote:
Wow, never noticed the lyric similarities. Let it be known that Bathory was NEVER a Venom clone, though. I've heard many people say that the first album was exactly the same as Welcome to Hell.


I agree, Bathory basically took what Venom was doing and took it to the next level on the S/T (and The Return as well).

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Nolan_B
In League With Nolan

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:29 pm 
 

LordOfTerror wrote:
Nolan_B wrote:
Wow, never noticed the lyric similarities. Let it be known that Bathory was NEVER a Venom clone, though. I've heard many people say that the first album was exactly the same as Welcome to Hell.


I agree, Bathory basically took what Venom was doing and took it to the next level on the S/T (and The Return as well).


I'd go as far as to say that Bathory were not even that much influenced by Venom. Maybe they were influenced by the extremity of Venom, but I hear much more Motorhead in Bathory than Venom.

Venom were NWOBHM, Bathory were undisputably black metal.

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HowDisgusting
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:30 pm 
 

Meh. Bathory didn't really hit their stride and establish an identity for themselves until Under the Sign, anyway.
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Third_of_the_Storms
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:30 pm 
 

Come on, "Sacrifice" is Venom worship if anything is.
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Nolan_B
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:46 pm 
 

Third_of_the_Storms wrote:
Come on, "Sacrifice" is Venom worship if anything is.


Sacrifice is one of their more Motorhead worshipping songs. You could say that it was Venom worship because Venom were definitely influenced by Motorhead as well. The style of the verse was very much like the style found on tracks like Overkill, Ace of Spades, and The Hammer.

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PenialTyrant
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:58 pm 
 

Quorthon guide:

"I hated band X" = Quorthon loved the band.

"I didn't hear band X until year Y" = Subtract 1 or 2 years.

"We were not influenced by band X" = Quorthon stole their riffs and/or lyrics.

"Vvornth and Kothaar" = Drum machine.
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awm
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:02 pm 
 

Yeah right, Quorthon, At War With Satan is awesome.

And Quorthon never said that there weren't any lyrical similarities.

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Gravemarker
The Bloody Heartland

Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:32 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:29 pm 
 

PenialTyrant wrote:
Quorthon guide:
"I hated band X" = Quorthon loved the band.
"We were not influenced by band X" = Quorthon stole their riffs and/or lyrics.


:lol: sig-worthy stuff.

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LordOfTerror
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:50 pm 
 

Nolan_B wrote:
LordOfTerror wrote:
Nolan_B wrote:
Wow, never noticed the lyric similarities. Let it be known that Bathory was NEVER a Venom clone, though. I've heard many people say that the first album was exactly the same as Welcome to Hell.


I agree, Bathory basically took what Venom was doing and took it to the next level on the S/T (and The Return as well).


I'd go as far as to say that Bathory were not even that much influenced by Venom. Maybe they were influenced by the extremity of Venom, but I hear much more Motorhead in Bathory than Venom.


There's definitely a lot of Motorhead in Bathory's music, but there's a good deal of Venom too, in the music and especially in the image, atmosphere, and lyrical content.

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Noctir
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:59 pm 
 

And, just to clarify, I never intended to imply that one band being influenced by another somehow means that they are a simple clone. One can be influenced by something and show no obvious signs, whatsoever. In this case, it is obvious that there was a relation, but certainly not a clone situation. I have nothing but the utmost admiration for Quorthon and what he achieved and, as a huge Bathory fan, I'm very glad for whatever influenced him to begin making music, whether it be Black Sabbath, Motorhead, GBH or Venom.
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ShoresOfLakeHuron
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:30 pm 
 

I noticed this years ago and pretty much everyone said I was crazy. I'm glad you found that quote from Quorthon because anyone I've talked to also said he never said this.

Bathory's first album and lyrics on a few of the following albums range from Venom-influenced to Venom-rip off. I remember reading those lyrics and immediately not liking it because it was just what Venom had done a year/year and a half earlier.

I've had a real odd relationship with Bathory. That first album put me off for a long time. In fact, I didn't listen much to any other Bathory again until the mid to late 90's, and then it was the viking stuff and I wasn't too fond if it because other bands were doing it by that time, and doing it better than Bathory, IMO. I know Bathory started the genre, but like I said, by the time I had listened to Viking styled Bathory, Mithotyn, Einherjer, Falkenbach and others were out doing it better.

At this point in time, I like Bathory a lot. I still know the debut album is a ripoff, but it's good in its own right. The next few albums are in my opinion where the more total black metal sound comes from. And while I find Quorthon's vocals corny at times, the viking era albums are damn good, especiall Nordland. All in all, a band that started off with nothing unique to offer, but ended up inventing and inspiring two forms of music. And that's always to be respected.
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ferknight
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:50 pm 
 

I would like to know WHO in the metal scene wasn't even minimally influenced by this band. :roll:

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Nolan_B
In League With Nolan

Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:05 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:22 am 
 

PenialTyrant wrote:
"Vvornth and Kothaar" = Drum machine.


I've always thought that the drums on Hammerheart and Twilight were fake. Is this 100% true?

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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:37 am 
 

PenialTyrant wrote:
Quorthon guide:

"I hated band X" = Quorthon loved the band.

"I didn't hear band X until year Y" = Subtract 1 or 2 years.

"We were not influenced by band X" = Quorthon stole their riffs and/or lyrics.

"Vvornth and Kothaar" = Drum machine.


hahahah ... true and well said.
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invoked
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:03 am 
 

ferknight wrote:
I would like to know WHO in the metal scene wasn't even minimally influenced by this band. :roll:

Varg claims to have never heard Venom, except perhaps on one occasion.

Whether or not that's true, I am aware of plenty of bands that weren't influenced by Venom, at least not directly.
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Nolan_B
In League With Nolan

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:07 am 
 

invoked wrote:
ferknight wrote:
I would like to know WHO in the metal scene wasn't even minimally influenced by this band. :roll:

Varg claims to have never heard Venom, except perhaps on one occasion.

Whether or not that's true, I am aware of plenty of bands that weren't influenced by Venom, at least not directly.


Varg was probably influenced by Mayhem, and they were definitely Venom influenced. So yeah, indirectly.

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Bezerko
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Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:50 am
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:13 am 
 

invoked wrote:
ferknight wrote:
I would like to know WHO in the metal scene wasn't even minimally influenced by this band. :roll:

Varg claims to have never heard Venom, except perhaps on one occasion.


Point invalid. ;)

I think it's usually agreed that the early Burzum stuff like War is much more directly influenced by Bathory. The Venom influence is less direct in Burzum (and non-existent later on of course), however indirectly it's there, as Nolan pointed out.

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VampireKiller
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:21 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:03 am 
 

ShoresOfLakeHuron wrote:
I've had a real odd relationship with Bathory. That first album put me off for a long time. In fact, I didn't listen much to any other Bathory again until the mid to late 90's, and then it was the viking stuff and I wasn't too fond if it because other bands were doing it by that time, and doing it better than Bathory, IMO. I know Bathory started the genre, but like I said, by the time I had listened to Viking styled Bathory, Mithotyn, Einherjer, Falkenbach and others were out doing it better.


Manowar were the true creators of Viking metal IMO. Their first song that dealt with Vikings, Gates of Valhalla, came out before Bathory had even released their first album

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Shawnathan_Mory
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:21 am 
 

I love both bands, and I also posted a link in the Black Metal Help thread where Quorthon talks about being influenced by Venom.

I still don't know why he lied about being influenced by Venom. I do know that Quorthon hates Celtic Frost.

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Adriankat
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:57 am 
 

Shawnathan_Mory wrote:
I do know that Quorthon hates Celtic Frost.

So Quorthon loves Celtic Frost?
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Noctir
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:17 am
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:30 pm 
 

Shawnathan_Mory wrote:
I do know that Quorthon hates Celtic Frost.


He must have spoken to Mr. Fischer. That's enough to open your eyes and disgust you with the man and his work.

VampireKiller wrote:
Manowar were the true creators of Viking metal IMO. Their first song that dealt with Vikings, Gates of Valhalla, came out before Bathory had even released their first album


Manowar? I thought Led Zeppelin started that, with "Immigrant Song".
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TheTarantula
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:59 pm 
 

invoked wrote:
ferknight wrote:
I would like to know WHO in the metal scene wasn't even minimally influenced by this band. :roll:

Varg claims to have never heard Venom, except perhaps on one occasion.



Where did you read this? I've seen a few pictures with Varg wearing a Venom "Black Metal" t-shirt. Why would he wear the t-shirt of a band he never listened to?

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DaBuddha
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:11 pm 
 

Apparently he only wore that shirt cause it said black metal on it.
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LordOfTerror
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:26 pm 
 

Then again, it is Varg, so it's quite possible that he was a fan at one point, then changed his story when he decided that black metal is "nigger music". Venom certainly doesn't fit into his modern ideology, what with their drinking, drugs, and whoring.

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Gravemarker
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:27 pm 
 

DaBuddha wrote:
Apparently he only wore that shirt cause it said black metal on it.


What a terrible excuse...
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VampireKiller
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:21 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:43 am 
 

Noctir wrote:
Shawnathan_Mory wrote:
I do know that Quorthon hates Celtic Frost.


He must have spoken to Mr. Fischer. That's enough to open your eyes and disgust you with the man and his work.

VampireKiller wrote:
Manowar were the true creators of Viking metal IMO. Their first song that dealt with Vikings, Gates of Valhalla, came out before Bathory had even released their first album


Manowar? I thought Led Zeppelin started that, with "Immigrant Song".


Well, the thing with Led Zeppelin is that they, to my ears at least, play hard rock instead of metal

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HeavyMetalSteve
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:23 am 
 

Shawnathan_Mory wrote:
I still don't know why he lied about being influenced by Venom. I do know that Quorthon hates Celtic Frost.


I remember reading somewhere that Quorthon said that Bathory was offered a tour with Celtic Frost and Destruction in the early years but he didn't have a lineup so he didn't do the tour. I've never read or heard that he hated Celtic Frost, do you have a source for that?

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Arek
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:33 am 
 

Noctir wrote:
During the course of another thread, I mentioned Quorthon admitting to being influenced by Venom ...


Two tracks from "Scandinavian Metal Attack" compilation - Bathory sound's like Venom from "Black Metal" LP. For me... this 2 tracks sounds better than first Bathory LP (better sound and production).

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ENKC
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:01 pm 
 

VampireKiller wrote:
ShoresOfLakeHuron wrote:
I've had a real odd relationship with Bathory. That first album put me off for a long time. In fact, I didn't listen much to any other Bathory again until the mid to late 90's, and then it was the viking stuff and I wasn't too fond if it because other bands were doing it by that time, and doing it better than Bathory, IMO. I know Bathory started the genre, but like I said, by the time I had listened to Viking styled Bathory, Mithotyn, Einherjer, Falkenbach and others were out doing it better.


Manowar were the true creators of Viking metal IMO. Their first song that dealt with Vikings, Gates of Valhalla, came out before Bathory had even released their first album

And if you want to really amuse yourself, hunt down the interview where ol' Quorthy ripped the hell out of Manowar. It's most entertaining.

And hey, Venom, Bathory and Hellhammer/Celtic Frost all played a very similar style that we'd now identify as blackened thrash. It's clear though that Venom did it first, and were a titanic influence on every genre of extreme metal to come (unless you count doom subgenres, which would be a stretch to compare with Venom).
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undergroundthrasher
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:46 pm 
 

VENOM ALL THE FUCKIN WAY FUCKERS!!!!!!!!
P.S: some ppl tell that manowar they r a huge great band and that they created viking metal well i will tell u tha tmanowar is a commerical shity band im nt talking aobut msuic they have some great songs n there music is (y) nt bad but there attitude they r commerical band tht they talk about viking n thoes things but in the end they show up with $$$ stufff!!!! hope u guys got it!!!

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Nolan_B
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:58 pm 
 

I remember Quorthon saying that he used to talk shit about bands like Celtic Frost and Kreator without ever hearing them. Just to create a rise. Kreator is always dismissed in black metal discussions, by the way. Along with Bathory's debut, Endless Pain pretty much invented black metal vocals.

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RageW
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:14 pm 
 

undergroundthrasher wrote:
VENOM ALL THE FUCKIN WAY FUCKERS!!!!!!!!
P.S: some ppl tell that manowar they r a huge great band and that they created viking metal well i will tell u tha tmanowar is a commerical shity band im nt talking aobut msuic they have some great songs n there music is (y) nt bad but there attitude they r commerical band tht they talk about viking n thoes things but in the end they show up with $$$ stufff!!!! hope u guys got it!!!

Yeah...something like that.
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cataclysm69
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:55 pm 
 

venom.. bathory.. bah who cares who copies who, they are still different bands with different songs, the more of this stuff the better i say...

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Eurnonymous
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:20 pm 
 

Bathory > Venom

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brightfield
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:03 pm 
 

Noctir wrote:
During the course of another thread, I mentioned Quorthon admitting to being influenced by Venom and someone asked for proof. I finally found the interview I was looking for, which was much earlier than I thought it was.

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/pa ... ilight.htm


I was interested to read this (since I mentioned a while back on the forum about the song titles being copied), but it seems the link isn't working.
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Noctir
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:52 am 
 

brightfield wrote:
Noctir wrote:
During the course of another thread, I mentioned Quorthon admitting to being influenced by Venom and someone asked for proof. I finally found the interview I was looking for, which was much earlier than I thought it was.

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/pa ... ilight.htm


I was interested to read this (since I mentioned a while back on the forum about the song titles being copied), but it seems the link isn't working.


For some reason, the link seems to go to the main page of the site. Click it again and then go to the Interviews, found in the menu on your left. Once you get the list of interviews, it is about midway down, the one that says "INTERVIEW FROM METAL FORCES MAGAZINE, 1987".

Regarding his views on Celtic Frost, here's what he had to say in a 1985 interview. It was saved on my pc, so I'm not sure if there's a link for it or not.

"I have heard Slayer's first and a few from bands such as Sodom, Destruction, Wimphammer / Celtic Compost, and I think they all suck. I don't even listen to black metal, death metal, satanic metal, or thrash metal at all. It's mostly crap. I don't say that Bathory is the best or anything, just that I don't like any of these bands mentioned. It's all up to the kid who buys our albums. I may think that Wimphammer / Celtic Compost is the biggest load of horseshit I've ever heard, but I respect them and wish them the best of luck in the future. Slayer may have tracks faster than Bathory but what the hell... on the third album, I'll beat them all when it comes to speed."
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overkill666
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:43 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:12 am 
 

Noctir wrote:
brightfield wrote:
Noctir wrote:
During the course of another thread, I mentioned Quorthon admitting to being influenced by Venom and someone asked for proof. I finally found the interview I was looking for, which was much earlier than I thought it was.

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/pa ... ilight.htm


I was interested to read this (since I mentioned a while back on the forum about the song titles being copied), but it seems the link isn't working.


For some reason, the link seems to go to the main page of the site. Click it again and then go to the Interviews, found in the menu on your left. Once you get the list of interviews, it is about midway down, the one that says "INTERVIEW FROM METAL FORCES MAGAZINE, 1987".

Regarding his views on Celtic Frost, here's what he had to say in a 1985 interview. It was saved on my pc, so I'm not sure if there's a link for it or not.

"I have heard Slayer's first and a few from bands such as Sodom, Destruction, Wimphammer / Celtic Compost, and I think they all suck. I don't even listen to black metal, death metal, satanic metal, or thrash metal at all. It's mostly crap. I don't say that Bathory is the best or anything, just that I don't like any of these bands mentioned. It's all up to the kid who buys our albums. I may think that Wimphammer / Celtic Compost is the biggest load of horseshit I've ever heard, but I respect them and wish them the best of luck in the future. Slayer may have tracks faster than Bathory but what the hell... on the third album, I'll beat them all when it comes to speed."


Quite a large ego he has.
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DrommerOmDod
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Posts: 522
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:16 am 
 

Wow. Referring to CF and Hellhammer as whimpy, can't say I've ever heard that one.
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SharpAndSlender, on the Big Four Tour wrote:
The last good album released by ANY of those bands is like bare minimum two decades back. This is a loud version of Antiques Roadshow.
last.fm

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