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brocashelm
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:02 am
Posts: 13
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:05 pm 
 

I was wondering about how it's decided what metal bands of elder eras can be included in the encyclopedia, and under what logic some are not or rejected. It's pretty much widely held by a lot of fans and writers on metal as a subject that bands such as the Stooges, Dust, MC5, Cactus etc. are important to the genre, and were as metal as anything else was during their particular era. Yet these bands don't appear on this site, and when I've tried to add some of them, they've been rejected with the reason being that they are "not metal." While I personally disagree with this view, I want to respect the rules and opinions of the site moderators. With that in mind, some sharper guidelines as to what you folks consider to be a legitimate "early" metal act would be helpful. There's plenty of bands that could be addded, but I'm loath to waste my time doing the work if the stuff is going to be rejected. And just a quick note...if a band like Skylark is considered metal, then the MC5 are the most crushing, devastating, heaviest band to ever exist by comparison. This dichotomy, friends, is where my confusion arises from.

Peace...

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PhantomOTO
Exterminator 666 Does Not Answer

Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:19 am
Posts: 3242
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:06 pm 
 

I've asked Morrigan about adding bands like Blue Cheer, Josefus, and Blue Öyster Cult, but the idea always gets rejected.

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brocashelm
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:02 am
Posts: 13
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:58 pm 
 

Couldn't agree more that Blue Cheer should be listed in the encyc. If there's something approaching a good reason why these bands get rejected, I'd like to know what it is. Most modern stoner bands are maybe AS heavy as Blue Cheer, though certainly not by any substantial margin.

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Evenfiel
Heavy Metal Hunter

Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 9:50 am
Posts: 6144
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:19 pm 
 

I've always considered them to be just plain rock, without much influence in the metal realm.

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oVerCaffeinated
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:59 am
Posts: 764
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:08 am 
 

URIAH HEEP!

Anyway... I THINK the Hard Rock/Metal bands on this site are here because they were submitted before the guidelines got stricter. Either that or bias.
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brocashelm
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:02 am
Posts: 13
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:51 pm 
 

Yes, Uriah Heep was a very curious rejection ineeed. I hope we can get this issue better clarified soon. For example, Sir Lord Baltimore, a band w/two early seventies albums is on the encyc, and they should be! But surely if they are allowed, other similar (and heavier) bands from the era should be as well. If it doesn't hurt the credibility of the encyc. to include lots of bands who seem to only have a demo tape out, then it surely can't hurt to include early bands in the genre who are well respected and have a legacy of recorded items.

Thanks to all who gave feedback

Peace

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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
Posts: 9562
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:47 pm 
 

Evenfiel wrote:
I've always considered them to be just plain rock, without much influence in the metal realm.


Pentagram (US) cite them as their biggest influence.
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Evenfiel
Heavy Metal Hunter

Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 9:50 am
Posts: 6144
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:48 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Evenfiel wrote:
I've always considered them to be just plain rock, without much influence in the metal realm.


Pentagram (US) cite them as their biggest influence.


That's why I said "without much", not "without any".

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MMisantropo
Magnificient Degluter of Yummy Ants

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:19 pm 
 

To answer the original question: basically all 70's bands in the archives either show influence from Sabbath's doomier moments, or were already modern metal in a proto-NWOBHM fashion. Exceptions are probably lesser known bands that were overlooked by the moderators.

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Gutterscream
The Last Old Schooler in Town

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:59 pm
Posts: 1419
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:08 am 
 

brocashelm wrote:
Yes, Uriah Heep was a very curious rejection ineeed. I hope we can get this issue better clarified soon. For example, Sir Lord Baltimore, a band w/two early seventies albums is on the encyc, and they should be!


SLB were just inducted a few months ago, showing there's still hope for Heep and a select few others.
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brocashelm
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:02 am
Posts: 13
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:04 pm 
 

Yes, and it is the recent addition of SLB that made me scratch my head. If we could get SLB (an awesome band to be sure) on here then why not Blue Cheer, Cactus, Randy Holden, Uriah Heep, Mountain, Groundhogs, Stooges, MC5, Bloodrock, Hawkwind, Warhorse (the British band w/ex Deep Purple members), Bang, Buffalo (the Australian band), Dust, Leafhound, Taste, Free, Spooky Tooth, Amboy Dukes, Atomic Rooster etc.? I'm sure the folks who would contribute the articles and review would be quick to stress the band's general level of overal metal content, and not try to exagerate the band's individual worth. How about it moderators? I'm not willing to hear back that only bands influenced by Sabbath and/or directly influenced the NWOBHM should be considered. Surely the stoner rock generation would argue in favor of more seventies heavies being allowed in, and I agree!

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Gutterscream
The Last Old Schooler in Town

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:59 pm
Posts: 1419
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:56 pm 
 

As far as I can deduce, there are 3 ways a '70s act can get inducted:

1. By transcending the seventies and evolving into something more metallic in the eighties. Obviously the band's whole discography has to be listed and would include the heavy rock early stuff i.e. Scorpions, Lucifer's Friend, Thor, Budgie, even Sabbath and Judas Priest if you don't think their early stuff is metal enough.

2. By simply being heavy enough in the seventies to warrant inclusion, of course at moderator discretion: J. Priest, Sabbath, Sir Lord Baltimore, Deep Purple, Night Sun, Flower Travellin' Band,

3. By directly influencing what would become regarded as heavy metal without actually being metal i.e Rainbow and Rush.

Needless to say, there are several bands that fall into one or more of these points that aren't on the site, and two or three members saying that a seventies band is heavy enough to be considered metal isn't going to change anything. The proof is the music, so if the moderaters haven't heard Josefus, Horse, or Power of Zeus or have only heard softer tracks by U. Heep, then there's a creek those bands are up paddleless. Apparently, someone with clout finally got around to hearing Sir Lord Baltimore and gave them a green light.
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brocashelm
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:02 am
Posts: 13
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:37 pm 
 

I think you're right on the money. And if the moderators haven't heard some of these bands, I'd be very pleased to send 'em some MP3's or encourage them to pick up certain representative discs. Some of the stuff is pretty damn rare, but thanks to the current re-issue mania lots of it is coming back into print. I think for this encyc to be as comprehensive as possible, there needs to be some give and take on this issue.

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brocashelm
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:02 am
Posts: 13
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:39 pm 
 

I think you're right on the money. And if the moderators haven't heard some of these bands, I'd be very pleased to send 'em some MP3's or encourage them to pick up certain representative discs. Some of the stuff is pretty damn rare, but thanks to the current re-issue mania lots of it is coming back into print. I think for this encyc to be as comprehensive as possible, there needs to be some give and take on this issue.

Note: I haven't heard Power Of Zeus or Horse yet, but I have heard of 'em. There was actually an interesting article on Power Of Zeus in a recent MOJO magazine issue.

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chaossphere
Metal Lunatic

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 11:49 pm
Posts: 2514
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:35 pm 
 

Gutterscream wrote:
As far as I can deduce, there are 3 ways a '70s act can get inducted:

1. By transcending the seventies and evolving into something more metallic in the eighties. Obviously the band's whole discography has to be listed and would include the heavy rock early stuff i.e. Scorpions, Lucifer's Friend, Thor, Budgie, even Sabbath and Judas Priest if you don't think their early stuff is metal enough.



Anyone who thinks early Sabbath or Priest isn't metal is a fucking retarded cocksucking nigger faggot assfucking dickwad who should fucking kill themself right now. Grr.
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PhantomOTO
Exterminator 666 Does Not Answer

Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:19 am
Posts: 3242
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:44 pm 
 

chaossphere wrote:
Gutterscream wrote:
As far as I can deduce, there are 3 ways a '70s act can get inducted:

1. By transcending the seventies and evolving into something more metallic in the eighties. Obviously the band's whole discography has to be listed and would include the heavy rock early stuff i.e. Scorpions, Lucifer's Friend, Thor, Budgie, even Sabbath and Judas Priest if you don't think their early stuff is metal enough.



Anyone who thinks early Sabbath or Priest isn't metal is a fucking retarded cocksucking nigger faggot assfucking dickwad who should fucking kill themself right now. Grr.

To be fair, Rocka Rolla is about as heavy as contemporary Rush albums.

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MMisantropo
Magnificient Degluter of Yummy Ants

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:14 pm 
 

brocashelm wrote:
I'm not willing to hear back that only bands influenced by Sabbath and/or directly influenced the NWOBHM should be considered.
Then I can ensure you will be disappointed. I'm not familiar with Sir Lord Baltimore, but from the comparisons you've made I'm guessing their acceptance was a fuckup and they will be voted out. You wanted "Some Guidelines For Adding Seventies Metal Acts", you've got that already.

Personally I don't miss Detroit rock bands such as MC5 or The Stooges here. They are loud and distorted and fuzzy, but their legacy and heritage is almost exclusively felt on the punk and alternative rock scenes. I'd rather see included bands that emphasize riffs over sheer volume - UFO and Ted Nugent, for starters.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9476
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:01 am 
 

MMisantropo wrote:
I'm not familiar with Sir Lord Baltimore, but from the comparisons you've made I'm guessing their acceptance was a fuckup and they will be voted out.

Er, no. I added them because they are as heavy as Sabbath. Period.

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MMisantropo
Magnificient Degluter of Yummy Ants

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:43 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
MMisantropo wrote:
I'm not familiar with Sir Lord Baltimore, but from the comparisons you've made I'm guessing their acceptance was a fuckup and they will be voted out.

Er, no. I added them because they are as heavy as Sabbath. Period.
hah! yeah, that changes a lot. I hadn't notice it. :)

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Peregrin
Cricket Bat of Longinus

Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:09 am
Posts: 1888
Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:44 pm 
 

Blue Öyster Cult should be included for the sole reason that they were the first band to actually classify their own music as "Heavy Metal", even if they did not sound like what people later on associated with that term.

In other words - if Venom are Black Metal, then BÖC are Heavy Metal.
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brocashelm
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:02 am
Posts: 13
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:07 pm 
 

Judging from the replies I've gotten it seems that BIAS rules the day here. If it sounds like Sabbath, they're in...if not then bug off. And by the way, the Stooges and the MC5 have been tagged as punk influences for a long time by journalists who were trying to DENY that the "big" name bands like Black Sabbath or Led Zeppelin had any influence on anyone (when they so obviously did). If you listen to their actual music, you'll find it, especially the Stooges FUNHOUSE record to be incredibly dense riff-wise. And for that matter, HIGH TIME by the MC5 has almost ZERO to do with punk on any level, mainly in the departments of groove and dynamics. Do us all a favor and forget the hype and just listen to the music. If you fail to see how HEAVY the Stooges music is, then you are beyond all hope and are probably more concerned with image and group opinion than actual sound. If that's the case then that's too bad for you.

I just wanted some guidelines...not lectures or some snotty bias towards music you don't personally care for. I can see it's not worth wasting my time with this issue any further so I'm officially dropping it.

Peace

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Evenfiel
Heavy Metal Hunter

Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 9:50 am
Posts: 6144
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:57 pm 
 

Peregrin wrote:
In other words - if Venom are Black Metal, then BÖC are Heavy Metal.


I would never classify them as black metal...


Brocashelm: Just upload those albums to rapidshare and let people judge if they're indeed metal or not.

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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
Posts: 9562
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:51 pm 
 

brocashelm wrote:
Judging from the replies I've gotten it seems that BIAS rules the day here.


:roll:
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Seriously, why ban me??????? That topic had nothing wrong with it! Theres something wrong with you i can tell you! You're immoral banning of my account! Anyways, i'm creating my own metal arcives.

http://extrememetalencyclopedia.webs.com/

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PhantomOTO
Exterminator 666 Does Not Answer

Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:19 am
Posts: 3242
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:24 pm 
 

Peregrin wrote:
Blue Öyster Cult should be included for the sole reason that they were the first band to actually classify their own music as "Heavy Metal", even if they did not sound like what people later on associated with that term.

In other words - if Venom are Black Metal, then BÖC are Heavy Metal.

I give BÖC some respect for that, especially with a lot of their peers, like Robert Plant, trying to avoid the "heavy metal" label.

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Gutterscream
The Last Old Schooler in Town

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:59 pm
Posts: 1419
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:47 pm 
 

I wish there was a site for all the stuff, say from '62-'63 til about '76, that resembles the archives - reviews, forum, trading, full discographies. The closest place I could find over the past few years was a site run by Vernon Joynson (easily the foremost intelligence on the beat, psyche, R&B, rock, folk, garage, & surf eras from '63-'76) out of Borderline Productions...

http://www.books-by-isbn.com/1-899855/

...where his four books - Tapestry of Delights (bands only from England, Ireland, and Scotland), Fuzz Acid & Flowers (US bands), Dreams Fantasies & Nightmares (Canada, Latin America, Australia, New Zealand bands), and another that dealt with newer bands - could be accessed. I have the paperbacks of Tapestry... and Dreams Fantasies..., but only the update for Fuzz Acid & Flowers. To give you an idea on how many bands he covers - Tapestry... is 720 pages, Dreams... is 474 pages, and the full Fuzz... book is 406 pages with the update another 150 or so pages -all small print, smartly written, and with a sense that he's heard 80% or so of it. That's around 1700+ pages that hasn't even touched on bands from the rest of Europe and acts from Japan and other Asian countries. He's since taken his portion of the site down, much to my woe
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hraormet
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:01 am
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:13 am 
 

So the strictening of the guidelines is why major influences on the genre, like KISS, Alice Cooper, Van Halen, Aerosmith, Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, Mountain, and Grand Funk Railroad aren't on this site?

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electric27
hurr hurr i post whiel drunk

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:03 pm
Posts: 975
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:00 pm 
 

hraormet wrote:
So the strictening of the guidelines is why major influences on the genre, like KISS, Alice Cooper, Van Halen, Aerosmith, Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, Mountain, and Grand Funk Railroad aren't on this site?

No, because the aforementioned bands were NEVER permitted. Strictening of the guidelines has nothing to do with it.
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orionmetalhead
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:54 am
Posts: 2453
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:46 pm 
 

Is it just me or would other people like to see other stuff associated with heavy metal on here aside from music... for example Metal Documentaries, magazine listings, books, Movies such as Airheads, Waynes World, Spinal Tap etc that are based in the metal culture?

How great would it be to include listings of magazines with references, similar to scholarly journal sites such as ebscoHost.

I agree though, there should be early bands listed that arent. If ambient bands can be listed and folk bands listed, then those early bands should also. I'm still surprised that Led Zeppelin isnt listed but im perfectly ok with that. Blue Cheer should be though along with other listed bands...

I tend to view this site as a reference point for fans but also scholars interested in studying and writing about metal. Including a vast array of mediums would be an excellent resource.

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ordoabchao
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:13 pm
Posts: 106
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:31 pm 
 

oVerCaffeinated wrote:
URIAH HEEP!

Anyway... I THINK the Hard Rock/Metal bands on this site are here because they were submitted before the guidelines got stricter. Either that or bias.


I was honestly going to post that before I read anything in this thread. There is a video in Norsk where it shows Fenriz (Dark Throne) jamming to a Uriah Heep record. Awesome.

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PhantomOTO
Exterminator 666 Does Not Answer

Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:19 am
Posts: 3242
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:47 pm 
 

This thread was almost a year old.

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