I think that I've heard some Catholics in Greece saying that it didn't happened. But they are surely a minority. Most Christians in Greece just think that the Crusades were done in order to save mankind and Europe from Moslems and such stuff.

Darwazeger, I really do not care about the numbers. For me it doesn't matter if they were killed 400,000 people or 1,000 people. The fact is one. People were killed for having the "wrong" ideology and for belonging in the "wrong" race.

You also have to accept that the NSDAP took bribes by wealthy Jews in order to spare them their lifes. That way they helped the Zionist movement to grow. If the NSDAP never existed the situation in Middle East would be better. You're the ones to blame for the massacres in Gaza. Poor Palestinians die because of the idiocy of the NSDAP.

Ah, they don't die because of the genocide that Israel commits against them. Thanks for info, I didn't know that the ones to blame for what is happening are not the murderers who are killing those people everyday but a political party who existed 70 years ago.

I didn't said that. The fucking Israeli state kills Palestinians. I just blame the NSDAP for the creation of this state.

That is factually incorrect. A nation state was a Zionist option from the start of Zionism in the late 19th century.

After the tensions between Jews and Arabs mounted in the first half of the 20th century (with immigration to Palestine during WWII actually restricted to 75,000 Jews), the UN approved a partition into a Jewish and an Arab state. If you believe Wikipedia, further immigration after the war was triggered in part by a Polish pogrom in 1946 that helped to convince Jews that even after the Holocaust and after the Nazi regime was over there was no future for them in Europe. Before that, Palestine did not seem terribly attractive to many European Jews; it was half-desert country, the Arab neighbors were inhospitable, living conditions were largely rural and rather rough.

Fast forward to today, I'd say that Israelis killing Palestinians (and let's not forget, Palestinians killing Israelis) is the result of a long and complicated chain of events including many, many mistakes on both sides, too complex to discuss here. Your allegation, however, is wrong. There is no direct causality between the Holocaust and the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine.

Mors

I have an question for you

If I understand right, you believe that every nation is have a right to independence.

So, why do you think that jews are doesn't deserve their own state ?
This is the whole idea of Zionism that unites all fractions in Zionist movement.

Yes, I belong to the hebrew nation and live in Israel, so I doesn't claim from being objective to this matter.

I was a Zionist in the past, mainly in the matter that Jews have the right to their own nation.

Novadays, I'm not consider myself as a Zionist, since the novadays Zionist movement turned into complete money and power worship, blind extreme right patriotism (Yes, there are extreme right jews, unfortunaly, their power is became bigger and bigger, therefore the army actions in Gazza became harsher and harsher).

So, Mors, I agree with you that IDF actions is unproportional and in some cases are brutally unfair. But, unlike you, I think that the poor situation in Azza is because Hammas goverment that interested to keep situation as it is in order to promote their agenda. So there is not just "Oh these fuckin Israelis", there is also another side of the coin.

For all Israelis here, Happy Independence day.

If the NSDAP had never came to power, I doubt that a Jewish state could be established in Palestine.

Yes, I believe that every nation has the right to be independent. And that's exactly why I want all states to be abolished.

Actually you are both right and wrong. While the idea of a Jewish state existed for a while before WWII (Theodor Herzl, who is considered to be the seer of Zionism and one of the first to suggest a Jewish state, died in 1904), the Holocaust was one of the main triggers for executing the idea of Jewish independence. Most Jews realized that after such tragedy they could never go back to living in Europe, and started with the Aliyah Bet illegal immigrations, while constantly operating for the establishment of a Jewish state.

I'm not an Israel-lover by any means, but the nation itself was started much like any other. The United States was started by conquest, yet I see only no one calling for the United States to be given back to the American Indians (not even the American Indians claim it should though). Britain began after the Romans conquered it, and then the Saxons invaded and conquered that, and the Celts and Saxons formed several nations. Gaul was started when the Frankish tribes united. Greece began when Macedon united the city states. All of the above was achieved through force. Need me to continue?

Claiming one nation is more or less valid than another is stupid and is generally only stated by equally stupid people.

The Israeli/Palestine conflict should probably be made into a new thread.

True. I never said that a state is more valid than another state. All states for me are not valid and thus deserve abolition.

We've had this conversation before. It's not going to get anywhere.

I'm not trying to open a different conversation as I don't want to hijack the thread. I'm just saying on what grounds I want the abolition of the state of Israel.

Done. A split thread from a split thread, how about that.

And if we continue that way we'll need dozen of other split threads.

What about "nation states". Ethnically defined nations, able to define their own infrastructure and whatnot...

I don't mind Israel, kind of biased cos I know more Israelis and Jews in general, but I don't like that America has this big hand in it and all that.

This is by far the most retarded statement I've ever seen.

Nation states may be ethnically defined (never homogenous though) but still supress the nation. What is the difference of a "free" nation state and an occupated nation state? The nationality of the ruler. Nothing more. When a nation wins independence unfortunately we are not led in the abolition of rulers. They just switch rulers.

As long as states exist, the nations won't be free.

Mors

Your line of thinking is somewhow, let's say.. utopic

Total anarchy is just no realistic by any means.

Another thing, perfars you are right and there is no goverment and complete anarchy around the world, the situation would be better ?

I don't think so, mainly because the world with no law means no protection to the person and life of the human being will worth nothing at all. Personaly, I know no person who will accept to live in the world witchout any rules.

Shut the fuck up with your inane politics.

anathema, this thread is not about my beliefs. So, please if you want that discussion to continue just send me a PM. I don't want to hijack the thread give the chance to Morrigan to ban me.

Leaders may grant certain liberties...

And keep others for themselves or ban them as a whole. No thanks. I seek total freedom. Not a piece of it.

Now, back on topic or PM me

I think the Jews have every right to a state, but why Jerusalem? It was surely one of the stupidest decisions of all time. So much conflict could of been avoided if they'd been given a piece of Europe instead (Germany? Poland?). After all why have a Jewish state in the holy land of Christians, Muslims and Jews? It's beyond ridiculous.

Well it is their 'ancestral home,' besides isn't it even worse if they were to stick around in Europe? I mean it's post-WWII, giving them a piece of Europe would trigger WWIII (well maybe)! Regardless maybe the Jews should not have been given Jerusalem, it should be a separate state. That way everybody would be happy...or not.

But of course, let petty wars over territory begin, for no nation should have a state.
States reduce the numbers of excuses a nation has to attack another state/nation.

Actually I'm not sure giving the Jews a separate state at all was a good idea anymore. But I still think land in Europe would of been a better idea than the middle east.

Yeah because if your people had just been the target of a mass genocide I am sure you would want to stay in that country as well.

Israel is a great ally to the United States, If the shit ever hits the fan with Iran you will be glad that they are there to.

Firstly no one is going to fuck with Israel not with the amount of nuclear weapons they have. And after the whole 3rd Reich ended, wouldn't that mean it's far less likely to happen again? In most of Europe post WWII I'm sure there wasn't massive amounts of Anti-Semitism (except Russia) so better to stay there rather than go to Palestine and piss of a whole bunch of new people.

I am sure there were probably quite a few bitter people left in Europe, Not to mention I doubt many people wanted to deal with the situation so they thought it best to start somewhere new.

It opened up another can of worms sure, but I can honestly say that it does not bother me what they are doing to the Palestinians. Israel uses many tactics I would love seeing incorporated into the war on terror.

Ha, I can honestly say I don't agree in any way with what Israel is doing in Palestine it's every bit as horrific (if not more so) than any terrorism, kids with rocks versus Israeli tanks...fucking shocking (of course there are cases were it's not that uneven, but still). Does it make it better that they are wearing uniform and on 'are' side whilst carrying out murder? I don't think so.

It goes back into collective punishment, I see no problem with them dropping a cluster bomb in a down town area being used as a spawning point for mortar attacks on Israeli settlements, even if civilians are in the area. Israel has always had a very strong policy of an eye for an eye, something that I respect greatly.

Allthough I'm not a Zionist. I must say in deffendece of my country. At least my country not killing the citizens by intention to kill. The problem is that hammas and other terrorist organisation are using intentiously the civilians to their purposes. At least Israel not trying to blow busses in the territories.

In many cases, I disagree with my country's policy. Since I think power politics does not work and collective punishment is not effective and it lacks strong moral basis.

It's not eye for an eye when your killing and harming innocents, it's indiscriminate. Palestinian terrorists have an eye for an eye policy..do you respect them? Just because you live amongst it does not mean all these people condone the actions of the Palestinian terrorists just in the same way everyone in Israel isn't going to support cluster bombing. And fancy that Jews using old testament rules!

It is fair justification in my opinion to target civilians when your enemy does the same. Terror tactics have uses and I see no reason why we or our allies should extend courtesy to an enemy who would not show us the same. Having rules to war is something I find quite absurd.

Israels past policy of human shields,cutting off power and water, bull dozing houses of suicide bombers that targets Israeli personal and so on are all things I consider viable military tactics.

The ends justify the means.

But what is the end result of a total war? In this case simply more violence which hasn't justified anything. Bombing civilians gives the terrorists more recruits...and it just continues. Does all these measures the Israeli's undertake make them turn against the terrorists? Apprantely not. And its alienating more of their own people too.

Following that line of thinking, you'd approve the nuking of half of your country for all of the unjust wars it has commited in recent future.

If I was a terrorist sure, but I am not I am a United States citizen. If you were to ask me if I approved of more less then desirable tactics in the war on terror I might have something to say about that. And before we even go there no I would not support the use of nuclear weapons in the middle east. Chemical weapons especially those meant to demoralize and create great pain such as the blister agent lewisite I would be ok with.

On a side note I do not consider the wars unjust and support them 100%, It is all a matter of opinion. Alas however this is a topic about Israel and its woes not of my views on the war on terror. So back on topic and what not.

Um, Count? The IDF does not officially have a policy of "an eye for an eye", in most respects.

Straight off Wikipedia,

I'm must disagree with you, priest

Yes... this is a right code. I served in IDF so I know it.

But, there is a huge but.... There is slight difference between what expected from soldiers behaviour from this current moral code and between reality. In reality you can often see the untreatment and discrimination of simple Palestinian workers. In this reality isn't surprising that soldiers in the various check points are often develop sadistic hate to the local population.

Unfortunaly I'm in minority on this subject in my country