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AurvandiL
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 1000
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:05 pm 
 

It often occurs that the genre indicated on many bands' pages is incorrect.
The "report" fonction is an incomplete option because there is no discussion; just a post and a mod.
I suggest we use this thread to discuss and debate over genre errors.

To begin: Bombstrike is listed as brutal death metal, but it is a mixture of black metal riffs / atmosphere and straigt-up crustcore. Nowhere near the indicated genre.

etc...


Last edited by AurvandiL on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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oneyoudontknow
Cum insantientibus furere necesse est.

Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 6:25 pm
Posts: 5310
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:08 pm 
 

I have started to create a text file on all the bands whose genre needs to be changed some time ago... there are some; Heidrain, Utarm and also Moloch Ukr when I remember it right.

I have written several reports on the issue some weeks ago and nothing has happend so far.
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AurvandiL
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 1000
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:14 pm 
 

That's what I'm talking about. It is sometimes hard to trust blindly the "reporter", and I can understand that mods have no time to lose to listen to extracts.

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MMisantropo
Magnificient Degluter of Yummy Ants

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
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Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:52 pm 
 

I support the idea.

Two small tips:
1. Whenever possible provide either samples or a few links to reviews. Sites like Myspace and Youtube are preferred over full albums on Rapidshare, because it's faster for a quick listen.
2. Try to have a grasp of the band's whole career first. What seems to be a flat out wrong genre description might be simply outdated.
3. Don't use this space for nitpicking, such as " Band X is not death metal, it's brutal death metal!".

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SssThsss
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:36 am
Posts: 32
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:08 pm 
 

It's true, there ARE 3 types of people...

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Snowgrave
Under The Plaintive Sky

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:31 pm
Posts: 2641
Location: U.S.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:30 pm 
 

MMisantropo wrote:
3. Don't use this space for nitpicking, such as " Band X is not death metal, it's brutal death metal!".

Would saying a band is melodic death metal, not death metal, be nitpicking?
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MMisantropo
Magnificient Degluter of Yummy Ants

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
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Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:47 pm 
 

No, it wouldn't. Despite the similar names, those two genres are miles apart from each other.

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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
Posts: 9592
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:52 pm 
 

There are also a lot of bullshit genres out there, like "melodic metal" and "traditional metal" which are adjectives rather than actual genre names. One time I even came across "melodic traditional/classic metal" or some horrible thing like that. It's "Heavy Metal" or "Power Metal", dammit!
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Reaper43
Painsponge

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:39 am
Posts: 625
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:03 pm 
 

Modern Extreme Metal was one of the more idiotic ones i've seen lately.
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caspian
Wanderer of the Wastes

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:29 pm
Posts: 6101
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:18 pm 
 

Ladies and gentlemen, I present the stupidest one of them all:

Pelican.

"Progressive Melodic Drone Sludge/Post-Hardcore".

I mean, seriously. That goes a bit too far.

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ThrashingMad
Skanky

Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:47 pm
Posts: 2353
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:08 am 
 

Sudden Death (US). I don't know about their first effort but Unpure Burial is in no way related to heavy metal or thrash metal.

MA page: http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=6623

Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/suddendeath6

This is definitely more towards groove/metalcore than anything else.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:14 am 
 

Reports for Protest the Hero


March 1st, 2008
Posted at 23:37

PTH should probably be labeled "Technical and/or Progressive Metal" rather than metalcore. I can see a *little* hardcore influence, but most of their influence seems to come from thrash, speed, death, and progressive metal (especially on "Fortress"). Calling them metalcore is not only limiting; it's somewhat insulting.
----

This only to demonstrate, how to leave the genre tags mostly in the hands of users would lead to hell.

The band in question is technical, but to give them the same genre as Fates Warning or Dream Theater.

Besides that, their punk/hardcore fundament is clearly hearable. The Fortess is their most metal album up to date, but that is it.

So please, report only genres that are completely and utterly wrong.

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Helvede
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:28 pm
Posts: 1418
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:41 am 
 

http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=11102

- Contemporary Rock?

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:44 am 
 

helvede wrote:
http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=11102

- Contemporary Rock?

:lol:

This is obviously a side project, but still I cannot imagine anything under such genre tag.

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AurvandiL
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 1000
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:50 am 
 

Witcher wrote:
Reports for Protest the Hero


March 1st, 2008
Posted at 23:37

PTH should probably be labeled "Technical and/or Progressive Metal" rather than metalcore. I can see a *little* hardcore influence, but most of their influence seems to come from thrash, speed, death, and progressive metal (especially on "Fortress"). Calling them metalcore is not only limiting; it's somewhat insulting.
----

This only to demonstrate, how to leave the genre tags mostly in the hands of users would lead to hell.

The band in question is technical, but to give them the same genre as Fates Warning or Dream Theater.

Besides that, their punk/hardcore fundament is clearly hearable. The Fortess is their most metal album up to date, but that is it.

So please, report only genres that are completely and utterly wrong.


Quite right. The tag should not fit what the listener wants to read, but reflect the music. If metalcore it is, (even if "insulting") then it's Metalcore.

But right now, as for the utterly wrong tag, we have Bombstrike "brutal death", actually crustcore with black metal influences (or crust/black, or whatever seems fit.)
Myspace here.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:58 am 
 

AurvandiL wrote:
Witcher wrote:
Reports for Protest the Hero


March 1st, 2008
Posted at 23:37

PTH should probably be labeled "Technical and/or Progressive Metal" rather than metalcore. I can see a *little* hardcore influence, but most of their influence seems to come from thrash, speed, death, and progressive metal (especially on "Fortress"). Calling them metalcore is not only limiting; it's somewhat insulting.
----

This only to demonstrate, how to leave the genre tags mostly in the hands of users would lead to hell.

The band in question is technical, but to give them the same genre as Fates Warning or Dream Theater.

Besides that, their punk/hardcore fundament is clearly hearable. The Fortess is their most metal album up to date, but that is it.

So please, report only genres that are completely and utterly wrong.


Quite right. The tag should not fit what the listener wants to read, but reflect the music. If metalcore it is, (even if "insulting") then it's Metalcore.

But right now, as for the utterly wrong tag, we have Bombstrike "brutal death", actually crustcore with black metal influences (or crust/black, or whatever seems fit.)
Myspace here.

To me it seems like regular crustcore, not particularly metal based.
Maybe it has some likeness to crossover thrash, but the Punk / Hardcore tag on their myspace seems to be pretty fitting.

It would be useful to get an opinion of more mods on this, especially if someone remembers why it was accepted.

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AurvandiL
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 1000
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:00 am 
 

Especially why it was accepted with a Brutal Death tag...
Otherwqise, I've no problem with them being on the site. (Oh and if you can, listen to Dodens Utstrackta Hand, you might see some BM influences. Maybe.)

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Helvede
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:28 pm
Posts: 1418
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:36 am 
 

Witcher wrote:
helvede wrote:
http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=11102

- Contemporary Rock?

:lol:

This is obviously a side project, but still I cannot imagine anything under such genre tag.


My thoughts exactly!

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Napero
GedankenPanzer

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
Posts: 8473
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:52 am 
 

Witcher wrote:
AurvandiL wrote:
But right now, as for the utterly wrong tag, we have Bombstrike "brutal death", actually crustcore with black metal influences (or crust/black, or whatever seems fit.)
Myspace here.

To me it seems like regular crustcore, not particularly metal based.
Maybe it has some likeness to crossover thrash, but the Punk / Hardcore tag on their myspace seems to be pretty fitting.

It would be useful to get an opinion of more mods on this, especially if someone remembers why it was accepted.

I can't remember the band, but sounds like plain crustcore with some really minimal metal influence. I think that would be a fun band to see live, like most good crust, but doesn't belong here.

I only listened to two tracks, though.
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Helvede
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:28 pm
Posts: 1418
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:54 am 
 

Witcher wrote:
AurvandiL wrote:
Witcher wrote:
Reports for Protest the Hero


March 1st, 2008
Posted at 23:37

PTH should probably be labeled "Technical and/or Progressive Metal" rather than metalcore. I can see a *little* hardcore influence, but most of their influence seems to come from thrash, speed, death, and progressive metal (especially on "Fortress"). Calling them metalcore is not only limiting; it's somewhat insulting.
----

This only to demonstrate, how to leave the genre tags mostly in the hands of users would lead to hell.

The band in question is technical, but to give them the same genre as Fates Warning or Dream Theater.

Besides that, their punk/hardcore fundament is clearly hearable. The Fortess is their most metal album up to date, but that is it.

So please, report only genres that are completely and utterly wrong.


Quite right. The tag should not fit what the listener wants to read, but reflect the music. If metalcore it is, (even if "insulting") then it's Metalcore.

But right now, as for the utterly wrong tag, we have Bombstrike "brutal death", actually crustcore with black metal influences (or crust/black, or whatever seems fit.)
Myspace here.

To me it seems like regular crustcore, not particularly metal based.
Maybe it has some likeness to crossover thrash, but the Punk / Hardcore tag on their myspace seems to be pretty fitting.

It would be useful to get an opinion of more mods on this, especially if someone remembers why it was accepted.


Well, it's not Brutal Death Metal at all, that's for sure!
Crust is a damn tough genre, when it comes to defining it's metalness. I do see (hear) why they could fit here, but it is basically very punk-influenced. I guess the argument for keeping them here is how they're comparable to old school grindcore, which is also included here to a certain extent. Personally I don't have a problem of keeping them (well, after a genre change at their profile), but then it also opens the door for several others.

If we go strictly by the numbers, there is a rule that states, that at least one album by a certain band has to be clearly metal to be accepted. I doubt Bombstrike has an album/release that fits that descrption to it's full extent.

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AurvandiL
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 1000
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:01 am 
 

Agreed.

It's up to the mods, then.

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MMisantropo
Magnificient Degluter of Yummy Ants

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:31 am 
 

This time I have to side with Witcher, there's hardly any metal moment to be found on Bombstrike. I didn't hear any BM influences on that song that was pointed out by Aurvandil either. I googled for their first album as well, and all references in the web describe it as crust punk.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:23 am 
 

As a result of all this, I have deleted Bombstrike and they will be placed on the rejected list.

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Earthcubed
Peregrinus sine aetate

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 2480
Location: Orocarni
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:56 am 
 

caspian wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen, I present the stupidest one of them all:

Pelican.

"Progressive Melodic Drone Sludge/Post-Hardcore".

I mean, seriously. That goes a bit too far.


Is there maybe a simpler way of saying this? What's the site's policy on saying "various" for a genre? Because as that stands right now, I don't think I've ever seen such a confusing and self-refuting genre tag. Drone in metal is generally either a)nothing but one or two very slow riffs with a lot of sustain or b)a few drones without any song structure. When you break it down like that, it's clearly never melodic and nearly impossible to be "progressive" in any sense---there can't be complicated, linear, non-cyclic song form, so that definition doesn't work; there can't be a lot of time changes or a lot of difficult techniques, so that won't work either; really, the only way it would be conceivable for drone to be "progressive" is if you consider progressive to be synonymous with "pushing the limit," in which case saying "experimental drone" would make far more sense.

And that's just the drone part, the first three words of a six (!!)-word genre tag.


Maybe the mallcore principle applies here? As in, it's easier to stick with a short but vague/contentious term rather than "extreme groovy post-grunge?"
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caspian
Wanderer of the Wastes

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:29 pm
Posts: 6101
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:20 am 
 

Well, I don't see why they can't follow Isis and be labelled 'Atmospheric Sludge', or perhaps 'Melodic Sludge'. Alternatively, one of those early/later things would work:

Sludge(early)/Post-Hardcore(later).

That would also work quite well, but 'Progressive Melodic Drone Sludge' is retarded.

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Eleventeen
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:40 pm
Posts: 129
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:29 pm 
 

i always thought isis, pelican, cult of luna, etc. were post metal :confused:
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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:42 pm 
 

Eleventeen wrote:
i always thought isis, pelican, cult of luna, etc. were post metal :confused:

Post-metal is an empty term, which actually means nothing.

It could only mean something like post-punk, namely bands, that have retained something from punk aesthetics, but cannot be called as such anymore - usually they were early alternative rock or gothic rock bands.

And to use something like that in this connotation here - as bands which were orginally influenced by metal, but have moved away from it- would bring many serious problems.

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caspian
Wanderer of the Wastes

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:29 pm
Posts: 6101
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:59 am 
 

'Post-Metal', in my mind, is more about referring to the fact that it's a mixture of post-rock (mogwai, gybe, explosions in the sky etc.) and metal. It is an empty term, though.

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oneyoudontknow
Cum insantientibus furere necesse est.

Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 6:25 pm
Posts: 5310
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:00 am 
 

Sombre Colère
Here is the entire album
http://sombrecolere.free.fr/SOMBRE%20CO ... 202008.rar
(sorry for the broken link; not my fault though)

The music is hardly Ambient Black Metal, but rather Funeral Doom. It reminds me on Until Death Overtakes me, but without the keyboard parts in the background. As there are some ambient interludes I suggest the following:

Funeral Doom/Ambient

Opinions?
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September 2013:
the 23rd edition of my magazine has been released:
https://archive.org/details/ADeadSpotOfLightNumber23

Analysis of band names:
http://www.metal-archives.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=103987

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Snowgrave
Under The Plaintive Sky

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:31 pm
Posts: 2641
Location: U.S.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:54 pm 
 

Does it matter if the genres of some bands don't have "metal" where it would be, like for example "Melodic Death" instead of "Melodic Death Metal"?

Also, does capitalization of genres matter? I noticed a bunch are written in all lower-case, like "melodic death/metalcore."
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Carver
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:32 am
Posts: 142
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:21 pm 
 

A minimalistic description like Progressive Sludge/Post-Hardcore could work for Pelican.

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AurvandiL
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 1000
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:21 pm 
 

oneyoudontknow wrote:
Sombre Colère
Here is the entire album
http://sombrecolere.free.fr/SOMBRE%20CO ... 202008.rar
(sorry for the broken link; not my fault though)

The music is hardly Ambient Black Metal, but rather Funeral Doom. It reminds me on Until Death Overtakes me, but without the keyboard parts in the background. As there are some ambient interludes I suggest the following:

Funeral Doom/Ambient

Opinions?


Funeral doom/black metal?

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oneyoudontknow
Cum insantientibus furere necesse est.

Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 6:25 pm
Posts: 5310
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:54 pm 
 

AurvandiL wrote:
oneyoudontknow wrote:
Sombre Colère
Here is the entire album
http://sombrecolere.free.fr/SOMBRE%20CO ... 202008.rar
(sorry for the broken link; not my fault though)

The music is hardly Ambient Black Metal, but rather Funeral Doom. It reminds me on Until Death Overtakes me, but without the keyboard parts in the background. As there are some ambient interludes I suggest the following:

Funeral Doom/Ambient

Opinions?


Funeral doom/black metal?

I can live with that...

edited my error out.
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September 2013:
the 23rd edition of my magazine has been released:
https://archive.org/details/ADeadSpotOfLightNumber23

Analysis of band names:
http://www.metal-archives.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=103987

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MMisantropo
Magnificient Degluter of Yummy Ants

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:39 pm 
 

Snowgrave wrote:
Does it matter if the genres of some bands don't have "metal" where it would be, like for example "Melodic Death" instead of "Melodic Death Metal"?

Also, does capitalization of genres matter? I noticed a bunch are written in all lower-case, like "melodic death/metalcore."


Nope.

Nope.

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MMisantropo
Magnificient Degluter of Yummy Ants

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:57 pm 
 

By the way, please keep this thread for bands with obviously misplaced genre tags, instead of discussing what's the most accurate way to describe a certain hard-to-pinpoint sound.

I'll give Pelican a deeper listen later, though.

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oneyoudontknow
Cum insantientibus furere necesse est.

Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 6:25 pm
Posts: 5310
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:17 am 
 

Heirdrain
http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=106412

genre: Black Metal

Smell the Stench DIY label:
Heirdrain - " Darkness Hopelessness Grimness " - CDR Limited to 40 copies
( Canada - Down Tempo Ambient Black Metal )

Heirdrain - " Pathetic Human " - CDR Limited to 40 copies
( Canada - Black/Harsh Noise )

No. 241 - Heirdrain - " The Long Road To Death "
( Canada - Black Noises/Harsh Noises/Dark Ambient/Trance )
Download Here
edit: a new release:
Heirdrain - " Purity of Death " - CDR Limited to 40 Copies OUT SOON
( Canada - Black, Violent, Agressive, Harsh Noises )
_________________

September 2013:
the 23rd edition of my magazine has been released:
https://archive.org/details/ADeadSpotOfLightNumber23

Analysis of band names:
http://www.metal-archives.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=103987


Last edited by oneyoudontknow on Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TheGrimWombat
Nelson Wannabe

Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:06 am
Posts: 1413
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:44 pm 
 

So...Experimental Black Metal/Ambient/Noise?

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oneyoudontknow
Cum insantientibus furere necesse est.

Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 6:25 pm
Posts: 5310
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:39 am 
 

TheGrimWombat wrote:
So...Experimental Black Metal/Ambient/Noise?

Yes, something that includes all of these different facets of the band's music. There is an additional release announced on the site of the label; see my edit.

I would not go so far to call them 'experimental' though.

Any mod opinion on the matter?
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September 2013:
the 23rd edition of my magazine has been released:
https://archive.org/details/ADeadSpotOfLightNumber23

Analysis of band names:
http://www.metal-archives.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=103987

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MMisantropo
Magnificient Degluter of Yummy Ants

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:52 am 
 

I changed Heirdrain's genre for now, but are you sure this band should even be on the archives? I didn't hear any BM on "The Long Road to Death".

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MMisantropo
Magnificient Degluter of Yummy Ants

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:58 pm 
 

I changed Pelican's genre based on the comments in this thread, the reviews on the main site and their Myspace.

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