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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1919
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:44 pm 
 

Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
It isn't really racism, but I know what you meant. Regardless, political cartoons have been around for ages, why should we censor them now?

It should be obvious to most people by now, that Muslims are not pushovers like Christians. Yeah, Christians will bitch and complain about the defemation of Jesus and such, but Muslims always take their anger to extreme levels such as arson, murder, flag-burning, etc. Really, we all know what they're capable of. Insulting the prophet Mohammed is like throwing rocks at a hornet's nest...all it takes is just one to set the entire hive loose on your ass.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:46 pm 
 

Pathological_Frolic wrote:
No, you don't understand. Hate + Hate = Less violence and tension..

Are you serious or just being facetious?
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.


Last edited by Viral on Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte
Imperius Rexxz

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:40 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:46 pm 
 

MUR wrote:
Think about it, if your idol would be embarrassed in some short of magazine would you be angry?


Two things. I don't have an "idol" and if there's anything that comes close to someone that I respect to a dergee of idolization, well I think a slight tinge of anger would be felt. However the issue here isn't how you feel about it, but rather not acting like a sub-human buffoon, burning and rioting any time you are "offended".
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Pathological_Frolic
Butterfly Sister Rosemary

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:57 pm
Posts: 406
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:47 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
Are you serious or just being facetious?

What do you think? :lol:
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Agonizer wrote:
My views may be extreme, and you may not agree with them. That's your perogative. At least I'm a cum dumpster.

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Thorgrim_Honkronte
Imperius Rexxz

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:40 pm
Posts: 2903
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:47 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
It isn't really racism, but I know what you meant. Regardless, political cartoons have been around for ages, why should we censor them now?

It should be obvious to most people by now, that Muslims are not pushovers like Christians. Yeah, Christians will bitch and complain about the defemation of Jesus and such, but Muslims always take their anger to extreme levels such as arson, murder, flag-burning, etc. Really, we all know what they're capable of. Insulting the prophet Mohammed is like throwing rocks at a hornet's nest...all it takes is just one to set the entire hive loose on your ass.


That speaks levels about their faults, actually. I still would not censor the cartoon.
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Viral
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:50 pm 
 

Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
Viral wrote:
Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
It isn't really racism, but I know what you meant. Regardless, political cartoons have been around for ages, why should we censor them now?

It should be obvious to most people by now, that Muslims are not pushovers like Christians. Yeah, Christians will bitch and complain about the defemation of Jesus and such, but Muslims always take their anger to extreme levels such as arson, murder, flag-burning, etc. Really, we all know what they're capable of. Insulting the prophet Mohammed is like throwing rocks at a hornet's nest...all it takes is just one to set the entire hive loose on your ass.


That speaks levels about their faults, actually. I still would not censor the cartoon.

Why do it at all? The Mohammed cartoon incident is dead and buried. Why bring it up again? Muslims are very passionate about their religion, so why should they take things like this lightly? I'm not condoning what they do, but still, there should be some degree of respect on the side of Europe. If they don't want Muslims there, they should just ban the immigration of people from Middle Eastern countries. That would be a much more effective solution.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Thorgrim_Honkronte
Imperius Rexxz

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:53 pm 
 

Why do it...? Isn't it obvious? With the current world events, it seems painfully clear as to why the cartoon was printed. Any political cartoon is made with current events in mind. I can dissect the meaning behind the cartoon but I think most of us know what it's about.

As to why print it again, why not? Why censor it? Respect has never been something considered when making attacks upon things such as religion or ideologies. The best solution would for them to either calm down and act like civil human beings, or fuck off out of Denmark.
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Viral
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:03 pm 
 

Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
Why do it...? Isn't it obvious? With the current world events, it seems painfully clear as to why the cartoon was printed. Any political cartoon is made with current events in mind. I can dissect the meaning behind the cartoon but I think most of us know what it's about.

I never knew spreading hateful propoganda was an effective method to quashing an uprising of sorts as opposed to it normally hurling more shit at the fan.

Quote:
As to why print it again, why not? Why censor it? Respect has never been something considered when making attacks upon things such as religion or ideologies. The best solution would for them to either calm down and act like civil human beings, or fuck off out of Denmark.

Right. So it's okay for Western nations to go into their countries and decimate their homes and businesses and leave them with no choice but to immigrate to other countries as a means of refuge. Then those same people who have taken everything from them try to deny them their way of life. You know, now that I think about it...Muslims really have no reason to be happy or tolerant of anyone. I can understand where all their anger and resentment comes from...it's from people trying to disrupt their way of life and destroy them at the same time. It's subliminal genocide. A slow process, but it is taking place as we speak.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Thorgrim_Honkronte
Imperius Rexxz

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:40 pm
Posts: 2903
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:05 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
Why do it...? Isn't it obvious? With the current world events, it seems painfully clear as to why the cartoon was printed. Any political cartoon is made with current events in mind. I can dissect the meaning behind the cartoon but I think most of us know what it's about.

I never knew spreading hateful propoganda was an effective method to quashing an uprising of sorts as opposed to it normally hurling more shit at the fan.


Who claimed it was?

Viral wrote:
Right. So it's okay for Western nations to go into their countries and decimate their homes and businesses and leave them with no choice but to immigrate to other countries as a means of refuge. Then those same people who have taken everything from them try to deny them their way of life. You know, now that I think about it...Muslims really have no reason to be happy or tolerant of anyone. I can understand where all their anger and resentment comes from...it's from people trying to disrupt their way of life and destroy them at the same time. It's subliminal genocide. A slow process, but it is taking place as we speak.


Who is saying it's ok for any of those things? Come on man, you can make better arguements than that. Why don't you address the things that I have specifically said instead of making up stuff.
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Viral
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:21 pm 
 

Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
Who claimed it was?

You're saying it's not, but at the same time you're condoning it to a degree. Stop flip-flopping and take a stance already.

Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
Who is saying it's ok for any of those things? Come on man, you can make better arguements than that. Why don't you address the things that I have specifically said instead of making up stuff.

How am I making stuff up? It is happening. And secondly, you don't see what I'm saying. Their extremely irritable state partly stems from the fact that the Middle East is slowly going down the crapper due to the constant and destructive intervention of Western nations in their affairs. Just because a lot of them now live in those places doesn't mean they're going to clean up their attitudes just to appease you. Their homeland, everything they have left behind in order to save their skin is being torn apart. They have nothing to return to. And no matter where you flee to, the feeling of a lost homeland will haunt anyone, not just Muslims. They want Muslims out of their countries? Then Europeans and Americans should practise what they preach and evacuate their presence in the Middle East as soon as possible. Then and only then, may the healing process begin.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Thorgrim_Honkronte
Imperius Rexxz

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:40 pm
Posts: 2903
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:23 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
You're saying it's not, but at the same time you're condoning it to a degree. Stop flip-flopping and take a stance already.


I'm not flip-flopping. For the record, because I condone the act of printing the cartoon doesn't necessarily mean I think it is "effective method to quashing an uprising of sorts". Where is the logic behind that correlation?


Viral wrote:
How am I making stuff up? It is happening.


By making stuff up I mean in the context of the arguement. Those points were never addressed by me, so it is futile to assume that I would agree or disagree with them in any case.
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Morrigan
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Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:26 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
I never knew spreading hateful propoganda was an effective method to quashing an uprising of sorts as opposed to it normally hurling more shit at the fan.

Ah yes, because those tame, harmless caricatures of a historical person are "hateful propaganda". And it's not like the Muslims themselves had similar cartoons even before the incident, with the portrayal of Jews as greedy blood-drinking pigs, which are certainly *not* hateful propaganda, no sir... Oh and, nevermind that the Muhammed cartoons were printed originally on a private newspaper, while the anti-Jewish cartoons were printed on government-endorsed papers.

Quote:
Right. So it's okay for Western nations to go into their countries and decimate their homes and businesses and leave them with no choice but to immigrate to other countries as a means of refuge.

1) Who said it was "okay"? Do you have a problem with addressing points that were actually said, and if not, why do you feel the need to invent new ones?
2) Please show me how Danish cartoonists and journalists (or hell even politicians for that matter) has actively invaded muslim countries and decimated them and left them "no choice but to immigrate" to Denmark. Really.

Quote:
Then those same people who have taken everything from them try to deny them their way of life.

Really, the SAME people, and they took EVERYTHING from them? How? Evidence?

Quote:
You know, now that I think about it...Muslims really have no reason to be happy or tolerant of anyone. I can understand where all their anger and resentment comes from...it's from people trying to disrupt their way of life and destroy them at the same time. It's subliminal genocide. A slow process, but it is taking place as we speak.

:durr:
You can't possibly believe the bullshit you spew, can you?

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:34 pm 
 

Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'm not flip-flopping. For the record, because I condone the act of printing the cartoon doesn't necessarily mean I think it is "effective method to quashing an uprising of sorts". Where is the logic behind that correlation?

One thing leads to another...it's a domino effect but with things only getting worse with each domino that falls. Printing a cartoon may not seem like a big deal, but apparently it is. And yeah, I agree that this sort of thing can't be done without there being mayhem in the wake of it all, but that's reality. To avoid another international crisis (but of a much greater magnitude), Europeans just need to suck up their pride and stop this nonsense. It's a game of tug and war where both sides will end up falling into the puddle of mud.

Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
By making stuff up I mean in the context of the arguement. Those points were never addressed by me, so it is futile to assume that I would agree or disagree with them in any case.

I know what you're saying, but you must understand what I'm trying to say as well. There is a direct correlation between these cartoons and the unrest in the Middle East. That unrest really is the biggest catalyst in all of this.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9802
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:41 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
To avoid another international crisis (but of a much greater magnitude), Europeans just need to suck up their pride and stop this nonsense.


I would say, "The fanatic Muslims just need to suck up their pride and let free countries express their freedom of speeches." For some reason you assume that the responsibility is entirely on the Danish side, but the fact that cartoons degenerate into violence says a lot more about the Muslim side than the European side. And perhaps they should mind their own business and stop fussing at what non-Muslims do in their own countries.

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Cretinhopper
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:02 pm
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:45 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
Europeans just need to suck up their pride and stop this nonsense.


Dhimmitude is no solution.

Seriously, it's not the comics that anger them. It's our society and lifestyle as a whole. They want to destroy us, and our leaders are doing their best to help them achieve this goal.

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1919
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:48 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Ah yes, because those tame, harmless caricatures of a historical person are "hateful propaganda". And it's not like the Muslims themselves had similar cartoons even before the incident, with the portrayal of Jews as greedy blood-drinking pigs, which are certainly *not* hateful propaganda, no sir... Oh and, nevermind that the Muhammed cartoons were printed originally on a private newspaper, while the anti-Jewish cartoons were printed on government-endorsed papers.

There has been lots of turmoil between Jews and Muslims for centuries (but I won't bother getting into that as it's not the topic). But yes, it is pretty hypocritical of them. But I'm saying it's not right on any level. Muslims shouldn't do it to Jews and vice versa with anyone else doing it to them.

Morrigan wrote:
1) Who said it was "okay"? Do you have a problem with addressing points that were actually said, and if not, why do you feel the need to invent new ones?
2) Please show me how Danish cartoonists and journalists (or hell even politicians for that matter) has actively invaded muslim countries and decimated them and left them "no choice but to immigrate" to Denmark. Really.

When I said "them", I wasn't referring to Denmark. I should have been more specific. I meant European nations that are involved in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

And are you joking with that last part? Have you seen or been to Iraq and Afghanistan for that matter? There is nothing short of decimation to the degree where the land is no longer inhabitable.

Morrigan wrote:
Really, the SAME people, and they took EVERYTHING from them? How? Evidence?

Again, I didn't specify. Refer to the above statements for some clarification. And yeah, we all know the interjection of Western nations didn't have a major effect on the stability of that region. It was all them (Muslims).

Morrigan wrote:
You can't possibly believe the bullshit you spew, can you?

What can I say? I can try and defend my points, but you would just condescend and dismiss me as another conspiracy theorist looney like you do with so many people who don't agree that the 9/11 attacks were everything that the news says it was and equating me with the creationists you loathe so much.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1919
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:57 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
I would say, "The fanatic Muslims just need to suck up their pride and let free countries express their freedom of speeches." For some reason you assume that the responsibility is entirely on the Danish side, but the fact that cartoons degenerate into violence says a lot more about the Muslim side than the European side. And perhaps they should mind their own business and stop fussing at what non-Muslims do in their own countries.

Different people have different ways of reacting to things. Yes, they definitely need to learn to simmer down, but it still doesn't make it right. Like I said in one of my initial posts, a more effective way of putting an end to this nonsense would be to put a ban on immigration from Middle Eastern countries altogether...not adding more fuel to the fire by regurgitating this shit all over again.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:03 pm 
 

Cretinhopper wrote:
Viral wrote:
Europeans just need to suck up their pride and stop this nonsense.


Dhimmitude is no solution.

Seriously, it's not the comics that anger them. It's our society and lifestyle as a whole. They want to destroy us, and our leaders are doing their best to help them achieve this goal.

Alright. Let's humour this notion that printing those cartoons is justified...where will it get you? Muslims are very dedicated to their religion and it's what they put first before everything (one of the things I disagree about their religion) and they will NEVER back down when the most revered of entities in their belief system is being slandered. So Muslims calming the fuck down isn't an option as they've made it apparent they'll never tolerate that sort of shit on any level (again, it's wrong, but that's the way the cookie crumbles with them). So really, it's up to Europe to be the bigger person in all this and back down before things get worse.

I'll expand on this point in 10 or so minutes. I have something baking in the oven.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Thorgrim_Honkronte
Imperius Rexxz

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:40 pm
Posts: 2903
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:06 pm 
 

Backing down should not be done on part of Europeans, as this is a submissive action and will obvious be taken advantage of as it has been done so many times in the past with Muslims in Europe.
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Cretinhopper
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:02 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:11 pm 
 

Europe IS backing down...

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Thorgrim_Honkronte
Imperius Rexxz

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:40 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:11 pm 
 

Cretinhopper wrote:
Europe IS backing down...


Unfortunatele, yes. It's sad.
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Viral
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:20 pm 
 

Perhaps this a revenge method. Muslims cannot physically exact their revenge on the West (as they do not have much strength military-wise), so they do the next best thing...immigrate to their countries by the truckload and disrupt their way of life.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9802
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:11 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
There has been lots of turmoil between Jews and Muslims for centuries (but I won't bother getting into that as it's not the topic). But yes, it is pretty hypocritical of them. But I'm saying it's not right on any level. Muslims shouldn't do it to Jews and vice versa with anyone else doing it to them.

Printing caricatures of an historical character is neither wrong nor evil, no matter how much reverence for him some people might have. Yet you have people rioting over that.
Portraying Jews as drinkers of baby blood is quite hateful, on the other hand. Yet you do NOT see Jews setting fire to embassies over that.
Don't make it seem like the two sides are "equally wrong" or some such.

Morrigan wrote:
When I said "them", I wasn't referring to Denmark. I should have been more specific. I meant European nations that are involved in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

And what does this have to do with the Danish cartoons?

Quote:
And are you joking with that last part? Have you seen or been to Iraq and Afghanistan for that matter? There is nothing short of decimation to the degree where the land is no longer inhabitable.

One, those are two countries. The post I responded to was a vast, sweeping generalisation of "the Middle East" and "Muslim nations". YOU brought those things up for some reason. Are you suggesting that because Iraq and Afghanistan are war zones (need I remind you that the situation in Afghanistan was caused by the Taliban's support of the 9/11 hijackers, so it's not as if there was no reason to be there, unlike Iraq?), that it makes it "wrong" to publish caricatures of Muhammed? If not, what are you saying?

Viral wrote:
Again, I didn't specify. Refer to the above statements for some clarification. And yeah, we all know the interjection of Western nations didn't have a major effect on the stability of that region. It was all them (Muslims).

Because I clearly said that... *sigh*

Viral wrote:
What can I say? I can try and defend my points, but you would just condescend and dismiss me as another conspiracy theorist looney like you do with so many people who don't agree that the 9/11 attacks were everything that the news says it was and equating me with the creationists you loathe so much.

You defend your "points" (such as they are) with a crybaby "wah I'm a victim" mentality (such as the above), strawmen and misrepresentation (such as the sarcasm, "yeah, it was all the Muslims!" and "because that makes it all okay to invade the countries!", etc.) and downright absurd statements such as talking about "subliminal genocides". You reap the scorn you sow, boy.

Viral wrote:
Yes, they definitely need to learn to simmer down, but it still doesn't make it right.
...
Alright. Let's humour this notion that printing those cartoons is justified...

What is wrong with freedom of speech? What is wrong with caricatures and drawings of a long-deceased historical character? How is it NOT justified? Do you even understand the concept of freedom of speech? :scratch:

Viral wrote:
where will it get you? Muslims are very dedicated to their religion and it's what they put first before everything (one of the things I disagree about their religion) and they will NEVER back down when the most revered of entities in their belief system is being slandered.

That's their problem.

Quote:
So Muslims calming the fuck down isn't an option as they've made it apparent they'll never tolerate that sort of shit on any level (again, it's wrong, but that's the way the cookie crumbles with them). So really, it's up to Europe to be the bigger person in all this and back down before things get worse.

This makes no sense. You acknowledge that their behaviour is wrong. So why should it be "up to Europe" to bend over and pander to their childish tantrums?
If a child is throwing a hissy fit in a public place and won't listen to reason, the parent needs to discipline him or remove from the scene, not give him the candy he asks for so violently. The child will never learn otherwise, and in fact, will be encouraged by this behaviour.

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Viral
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:46 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Printing caricatures of an historical character is neither wrong nor evil, no matter how much reverence for him some people might have. Yet you have people rioting over that.
Portraying Jews as drinkers of baby blood is quite hateful, on the other hand. Yet you do NOT see Jews setting fire to embassies over that.

First off, it wasn't just a picture of him. It was a picture of the prophet with a bomb on his head...making reference to the negative stereotypes associated with Muslims. And to somewhat derail the thread again, Jews may not be rioting through the streets, but Israel does a lot of other shitty things to their Arab neighbours that are far worse. Arabs rioting is the lesser of the two evils.

Morrigan wrote:
One, those are two countries. The post I responded to was a vast, sweeping generalisation of "the Middle East" and "Muslim nations". YOU brought those things up for some reason. Are you suggesting that because Iraq and Afghanistan are war zones (need I remind you that the situation in Afghanistan was caused by the Taliban's support of the 9/11 hijackers, so it's not as if there was no reason to be there, unlike Iraq?), that it makes it "wrong" to publish caricatures of Muhammed? If not, what are you saying?

Yes, in fact. The Western world has done enough to fuck these people over. So stop making a big deal about you Euros not being able to "express" yourselves through animation. It's not like they're waging war on you, like you (and by you, I mean the people you're standing up for (and I mean the West in general, not just Denmark)) have with them. Also, the 9/11 attacks do not justify any war. What makes American lives more important than that of anyone elses? Keep in mind, only a thousand or so people were killed in those attacks whereas the death toll in the Middle East as a result of these wars is far greater...not even comparable. You make it obvious you don't like these people of Islam very much at all (which is okay), but to think the slaying of them is justifiable on some scale (no matter how small) is another thing. I don't care for them much either, but I don't wish any harm on them.

Morrigan wrote:
You defend your "points" (such as they are) with a crybaby "wah I'm a victim" mentality (such as the above), strawmen and misrepresentation (such as the sarcasm, "yeah, it was all the Muslims!" and "because that makes it all okay to invade the countries!", etc.) and downright absurd statements such as talking about "subliminal genocides". You reap the scorn you sow, boy.

I'm not trying to be a victim as I'm not a Muslim. And just because you condemn conspiracy theories doesn't take anything away from them. You're not the "be all, end all" judge of these things. They're still up for debate. So what you view as absurd could very well be a reality. Who are you to say what governments around the world are doing or not?

And there you go again with that condescending tone. Why do you feel the need to do that? Does it make you feel superior or something? I'm speaking in a civil way and you go ahead and refer to me as "boy" in a negative way (by the way, please let me know how being a couple years older than me makes me a fucking boy (we're both in our 20's)).

Morrigan wrote:
What is wrong with freedom of speech? What is wrong with caricatures and drawings of a long-deceased historical character? How is it NOT justified? Do you even understand the concept of freedom of speech? :scratch:

So freedom is worth having your town trashed and people getting hurt? That's what I'm getting at here...yes, it's within their constitutional rights to express themselves however they wish, but is it really worth it? Knowing what will become of it? Sorry, but I value my safety more than I do the desire to piss certain people off. Do you not understand that freedom of speech also comes with limits? Yes, it may not be on the same level as the Holocaust cartoon contests held in Iran, but it's still unnecessary. Hell, why not go ahead and deny all forms of political correctness and start producing cartoons of black people eating fried chicken and selling drugs. I mean, blacks are considered a huge pain in the ass in American society, so that would be justified too, no? Political correctness gets out of hand a lot of times, but it's in place for a reason...so that the world will not erupt in some huge race/religion war.

Morrigan wrote:
That's their problem.

Alright. It's their fate though. I mean, I'm trying to look for a happy medium here...something that will result in both sides not ringing each other's necks. But hey, freedom of speech, right? That also comes with a price.

Morrigan wrote:
This makes no sense. You acknowledge that their behaviour is wrong. So why should it be "up to Europe" to bend over and pander to their childish tantrums? If a child is throwing a hissy fit in a public place and won't listen to reason, the parent needs to discipline him or remove from the scene, not give him the candy he asks for so violently. The child will never learn otherwise, and in fact, will be encouraged by this behaviour.

You make a good point, but I just don't understand why they MUST insist on making those cartoons. You guys make it sound like it'll be the end of the world if some Euros are not able to produce their beloved cartoons. Why open another can of worms? Instead of learning from the last incident, they want to instigate it all over again. Like I said, they need to swallow their pride and focus on reducing the population of Muslims in their country through diplomatic means. Less Muslims = less of them marching through the streets of Europe bitching about shit.
_________________
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Unearthly
Spectre of Wrath

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:10 pm
Posts: 635
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:36 pm 
 

Viral, I believe Morrigan's point (which I largely agree with) is that your concern about upsetting the balance (I use this term lightly) is tantamount to support of deliberate self-censorship. Islamism has proven to be a highly volatile and often violent political concoction that will try to impress its views upon dissenters. Abstaining from exercise of free speech to achieve temporary diffusion of conflict yields no real gain, so the logical course of action is to rightfully exercise it. In essence, the Danish press feels it is better to stay firm in their position rather than risk submission to extremist Muslim encroachment.

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BeforeGod
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:20 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:02 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
How am I making stuff up? It is happening. And secondly, you don't see what I'm saying. Their extremely irritable state partly stems from the fact that the Middle East is slowly going down the crapper due to the constant and destructive intervention of Western nations in their affairs. Just because a lot of them now live in those places doesn't mean they're going to clean up their attitudes just to appease you. Their homeland, everything they have left behind in order to save their skin is being torn apart. They have nothing to return to. And no matter where you flee to, the feeling of a lost homeland will haunt anyone, not just Muslims. They want Muslims out of their countries? Then Europeans and Americans should practise what they preach and evacuate their presence in the Middle East as soon as possible. Then and only then, may the healing process begin.


While I think that you are profoundly, profoundly, stupid (or perhaps just nakedly partisan), I do agree that it would be for the best if Western nations pulled their troops out of the Middle East. Still I can't really see too many examples of "Western nations [going] into their countries and decimat[ing] their homes and businesses" in such a way as to cause mass flight. Iraq is kind of a no-brainer, but Europe has been under demographic siege since the late 1970s, not since 2003. There's always Afghanistan I suppose, but the USSR is generally seen as existing outside of "The West." The Suez Canal crisis of '56 and the resulting British and French intervention in Egypt could hardly be described as a "decimation." The same goes for the US involvement in Lebanon in the 80s. Really the only major war in the Middle East that can really be seen as devastating is the '80-88 Iran-Iraq war, which was an in-house affair. Sure the Americans sold a lot of weapons to the Iraqis, but most of Saddam's support came from the rest of the Arab world. The 1991 invasion of Kuwait was a direct result of the massive loans given to Iraq to aid the war effort.

Oh well, regardless of the facts, lets imagine that US/EU withdrawal from the Middle East would be the silver bullet that would cure all of that region's many ills. Do you really think that all those poor downtrodden Arabs are going to leave the cruel government housing and oppressive welfare cheques of tyrannical Europe for their (now Utopian) former homes? I'm pretty sure fewer Arabs dying will only translate into more surplus population for Europe to absorb. Nevermind that it is saturated almost to the point of disintegration with the Islamic world's effluence as it is.

Just for the record, do you live in Canada because we bombed your homeland into submission and rendered it uninhabitable?

Viral wrote:
Perhaps this a revenge method. Muslims cannot physically exact their revenge on the West (as they do not have much strength military-wise), so they do the next best thing...immigrate to their countries by the truckload and disrupt their way of life.


And it's in our best interests to aid them in this because...? If they're "immigrating by the truckload" to do this, Western governments should have them emigrating by the body bag.

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1919
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:02 pm 
 

Unearthly wrote:
Viral, I believe Morrigan's point (which I largely agree with) is that your concern about upsetting the balance (I use this term lightly) is tantamount to support of deliberate self-censorship. Islamism has proven to be a highly volatile and often violent political concoction that will try to impress its views upon dissenters. Abstaining from exercise of free speech to achieve temporary diffusion of conflict yields no real gain, so the logical course of action is to rightfully exercise it. In essence, the Danish press feels it is better to stay firm in their position rather than risk submission to extremist Muslim encroachment.

I doubt it. It's just going to make things worse. All we can really do is wait and see if they choose to go through with this and how the Islamic presence in Europe will react to this once again.
_________________
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Unearthly
Spectre of Wrath

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:10 pm
Posts: 635
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:10 pm 
 

Okay, here's the thing: This is not about a specific item (the cartoon) being printed. It's the principle of not compromising personal liberties for the sake of downplaying or ignoring an affront to those same liberties. What results from this reprinting is of secondary importance and will be handled when imminent.

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1919
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:25 pm 
 

BeforeGod wrote:
While I think that you are profoundly, profoundly, stupid (or perhaps just nakedly partisan), I do agree that it would be for the best if Western nations pulled their troops out of the Middle East. Still I can't really see too many examples of "Western nations [going] into their countries and decimat[ing] their homes and businesses" in such a way as to cause mass flight. Iraq is kind of a no-brainer, but Europe has been under demographic siege since the late 1970s, not since 2003. There's always Afghanistan I suppose, but the USSR is generally seen as existing outside of "The West." The Suez Canal crisis of '56 and the resulting British and French intervention in Egypt could hardly be described as a "decimation." The same goes for the US involvement in Lebanon in the 80s. Really the only major war in the Middle East that can really be seen as devastating is the '80-88 Iran-Iraq war, which was an in-house affair. Sure the Americans sold a lot of weapons to the Iraqis, but most of Saddam's support came from the rest of the Arab world. The 1991 invasion of Kuwait was a direct result of the massive loans given to Iraq to aid the war effort.

Well, I'll be. I never thought you and Morrigan would ever see eye to eye on something given your history with her. And secondly, it's not one single event that has resulted in the Middle East's current decaying state, it's a series of wars and political conflicts (a lot of them orchestrated by the U.S. government) that has brought it to what it is now.

BeforeGod wrote:
Oh well, regardless of the facts, lets imagine that US/EU withdrawal from the Middle East would be the silver bullet that would cure all of that region's many ills. Do you really think that all those poor downtrodden Arabs are going to leave the cruel government housing and oppressive welfare cheques of tyrannical Europe for their (now Utopian) former homes? I'm pretty sure fewer Arabs dying will only translate into more surplus population for Europe to absorb. Nevermind that it is saturated almost to the point of disintegration with the Islamic world's effluence as it is.

Your ignorance really shines here. You won't find many Arabs (mostly Saudi, Qatar and UAE Arabs) outside the Middle East as they live the most upscale of lifestyles where they are. The majority of Muslims who live outside the Middle East are Pakistanis anyhow. But then again, to you we're all the same, right?

BeforeGod wrote:
Just for the record, do you live in Canada because we bombed your homeland into submission and rendered it uninhabitable?

And you call me an idiot? What do you know about Iran, moron? It's not the warzone Iraq and Afghanistan are. It has a stable and efficient economy and other than Islamic law being in play there, there's really nothing wrong with the country. In fact, an uncle of mine is living there right now willingly (he just moved there from the U.S.). He tells me it's beautiful this time of year.

BeforeGod wrote:
And it's in our best interests to aid them in this because...? If they're "immigrating by the truckload" to do this, Western governments should have them emigrating by the body bag.

Don't aid them. In fact, I would like to see the immigration of Muslims to Europe ceased. They have no business being there. But neither does the West in the Middle East. Regardless, I find it somewhat pointless debating this with the likes of you seeing as how you're a racist douche who is well known for it. You think we're all the same anyways, so what's the point?
_________________
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1919
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:37 pm 
 

Unearthly wrote:
Okay, here's the thing: This is not about a specific item (the cartoon) being printed. It's the principle of not compromising personal liberties for the sake of downplaying or ignoring an affront to those same liberties. What results from this reprinting is of secondary importance and will be handled when imminent.

Yes. I understand that and I agree. But it's stupid too. They want to offend people for the sake of offending people. I just don't understand how being politically incorrect and intentionally wanting to offend people is going to solve anything. It's like black people and the word nigger. Yes, it's just a word, but that word has a history behind it which is why it's usage nowadays is deemed as inappropriate. This is a similar situation. The reason why Muslims find this kind of thing so offensive is because Muhammed being physically depicted is considered a form of idolatry which is heresy to them.

Also, what if this doesn't work? What if this makes them even more hostile? Then what? Continue doing it until suicide bombings in Europe are at an all-time high.
_________________
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Osmium
The Hateful Raven

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:18 am
Posts: 2521
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:11 am 
 

Viral wrote:
Yes. I understand that and I agree. But it's stupid too. They want to offend people for the sake of offending people. I just don't understand how being politically incorrect and intentionally wanting to offend people is going to solve anything. It's like black people and the word nigger. Yes, it's just a word, but that word has a history behind it which is why it's usage nowadays is deemed as inappropriate. This is a similar situation. The reason why Muslims find this kind of thing so offensive is because Muhammed being physically depicted is considered a form of idolatry which is heresy to them.

Also, what if this doesn't work? What if this makes them even more hostile? Then what? Continue doing it until suicide bombings in Europe are at an all-time high.


It's certainly legal in the US to yell "nigger" as loud as you can, and I would staunchly defend every person's right to do this even if I disagreed with their intent, sentiment, or ethical outlook. However, the key here, as Unearthly and others have pointed out, is the principle of the matter. The freedom of expression is one of the core values of the west (Europe and the US). No ideology is divine: every one of them is open to criticism--of all sorts. No matter which ideology is mocked or criticized, some group will surely be upset. And they entirely have the right to intellectual retribution. But when the retribution becomes physical, the individuals in question have crossed the line that separates legitimate criticism from barbaric mob rule.

If they become more hostile, then they will have to be dealt with. Social unrest will ensue; people will get hurt. However, if we allow Islam to become superior to western values, any expression of dissent from Islam may fall prey to such bully tactics.

By the way, this topic should be moved to the Symposium.

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1919
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:17 am 
 

Osmium wrote:
Viral wrote:
Yes. I understand that and I agree. But it's stupid too. They want to offend people for the sake of offending people. I just don't understand how being politically incorrect and intentionally wanting to offend people is going to solve anything. It's like black people and the word nigger. Yes, it's just a word, but that word has a history behind it which is why it's usage nowadays is deemed as inappropriate. This is a similar situation. The reason why Muslims find this kind of thing so offensive is because Muhammed being physically depicted is considered a form of idolatry which is heresy to them.

Also, what if this doesn't work? What if this makes them even more hostile? Then what? Continue doing it until suicide bombings in Europe are at an all-time high.


It's certainly legal in the US to yell "nigger" as loud as you can, and I would staunchly defend every person's right to do this even if I disagreed with their intent, sentiment, or ethical outlook. However, the key here, as Unearthly and others have pointed out, is the principle of the matter. The freedom of expression is one of the core values of the west (Europe and the US). No ideology is divine: every one of them is open to criticism--of all sorts. No matter which ideology is mocked or criticized, some group will surely be upset. And they entirely have the right to intellectual retribution. But when the retribution becomes physical, the individuals in question have crossed the line that separates legitimate criticism from barbaric mob rule.

If they become more hostile, then they will have to be dealt with. Social unrest will ensue; people will get hurt. However, if we allow Islam to become superior to western values, any expression of dissent from Islam may fall prey to such bully tactics.

By the way, this topic should be moved to the Symposium.

I really don't want to call you a liar, but I doubt (like many of us) that you have the balls to call a black person a nigger to their face.
_________________
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Thorgrim_Honkronte
Imperius Rexxz

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:40 pm
Posts: 2903
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:21 am 
 

Did he say he did? Regardless, his point is 100% valid. The right of expression is what matters, not necessarily what is being expressed.
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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1919
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:26 am 
 

Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
Did he say he did? Regardless, his point is 100% valid. The right of expression is what matters, not necessarily what is being expressed.

Well, what's freedom of expression if you can't say it to someone's face? It really has no merit if you're doing it from behind a computer monitor. Then it's not freedom of expression, it's cowardice.
_________________
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Thorgrim_Honkronte
Imperius Rexxz

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:40 pm
Posts: 2903
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:28 am 
 

You CAN say it to someone's face though. The freedom of expression in this instance is referring to its legality.
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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:30 am 
 

It's funny how I'm all alone in this thread with everyone disagreeing with me to the fullest degree. Not that I mind, it's just interesting is all.
_________________
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1919
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:32 am 
 

Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
You CAN say it to someone's face though. The freedom of expression in this instance is referring to its legality.

It comes with a price though. I just find it hard to believe you're willing to get yourself killed just so you can talk smack to someone. A concept I'll never understand.
_________________
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Thorgrim_Honkronte
Imperius Rexxz

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:40 pm
Posts: 2903
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:35 am 
 

If it means anything to you, I can sympathize with the Muslims who are affected by this. That is, the average, complacent law abiding Muslim. These people are really taking a lot of heat from the whole fucked up situation, and the extremists are perhaps doing them more harm than any foreign force ever could. They continue to alienate their religion and make the West, for all purposes, view Islam as barbaric and relentless in nature. I know better than that though, as do many others. The general outlook though is not so good.

However I still will never advocate censorship or any form of "pandering" to any foreign ideals and ways that would be harmful to pre-existing and established cultures. That is why I am glad to see this cartoon printed, because too many people are afraid of retribution from extremist muslims. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile, is a saying that I think fits here.
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Metalhead

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:38 am 
 

Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
If it means anything to you, I can sympathize with the Muslims who are affected by this. That is, the average, complacent law abiding Muslim. These people are really taking a lot of heat from the whole fucked up situation, and the extremists are perhaps doing them more harm than any foreign force ever could. They continue to alienate their religion and make the West, for all purposes, view Islam as barbaric and relentless in nature. I know better than that though, as do many others. The general outlook though is not so good.

However I still will never advocate censorship or any form of "pandering" to any foreign ideals and ways that would be harmful to pre-existing and established cultures. That is why I am glad to see this cartoon printed, because too many people are afraid of retribution from extremist muslims. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile, is a saying that I think fits here.

My main concern from the beginning was the safety of people. If this thing spirals out of control, who knows what will happen. A lot of people could get hurt. And is losing your life or the life of someone you care about worth upholding your national pride? I've said this many times throughout the thread, but every brave action comes with a price.
_________________
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1919
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:40 am 
 

I also want to apologize to anyone in this thread I may have upset.
_________________
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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