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prezuiwf
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:31 am
Posts: 72
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:00 pm 
 

Now that Iommi, Butler, Dio, and Appice are releasing a live album explicitly as "Heaven & Hell" and not "Black Sabbath," don't you think it's time we finally created a new page for H&H? Iommi has said that Black Sabbath proper is on hold and has stated multiple times that this is a side project. I consider it to be just another incarnation of Sabbath as much as the next guy, but in official terms Sabbath is on hold and H&H is releasing a live album and DVD and is active.

If I get the ok I'll make a seperate H&H page and move the new live album to that page.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:07 pm 
 

prezuiwf wrote:
Now that Iommi, Butler, Dio, and Appice are releasing a live album explicitly as "Heaven & Hell" and not "Black Sabbath," don't you think it's time we finally created a new page for H&H? Iommi has said that Black Sabbath proper is on hold and has stated multiple times that this is a side project. I consider it to be just another incarnation of Sabbath as much as the next guy, but in official terms Sabbath is on hold and H&H is releasing a live album and DVD and is active.

If I get the ok I'll make a seperate H&H page and move the new live album to that page.


If there are no new songs, you defginitely will not get an o.k., since that would equal cover band. Each incarnation of a band must have a release with at least some own material in order to get accepted.

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prezuiwf
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:31 am
Posts: 72
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:12 pm 
 

I mean, I'd say this is a GLARING exception given that the "cover band" is playing songs that the members themselves wrote. If anything this would be akin to a name change (which does warrant a new page) since it's the original band members playing their own songs under a different name.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:18 pm 
 

prezuiwf wrote:
I mean, I'd say this is a GLARING exception given that the "cover band" is playing songs that the members themselves wrote. If anything this would be akin to a name change (which does warrant a new page) since it's the original band members playing their own songs under a different name.


No, sorry, there is no exception, the band must have new material released under the new name, we have mentioned it here countless times. If it happens in the future, then a new page will be created.


Last edited by Witcher on Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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prezuiwf
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:31 am
Posts: 72
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:37 pm 
 

Can I get a second opinion from another mod? I obviously see what Witcher is saying but I think the uniqueness of the situation plus the fact that the site's rules don't say anything about releasing NEW material (just SOME material, which they are releasing) makes this a valid suggestion. It seems counterintuative to put the new live album on the band's old page, which still lists an old lineup and is officially "on hold."

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9376
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:03 pm 
 

I am inclined to agree with you and disagree with Witcher, but I am concerned about the precedent it might set.

On the other hand, Heaven & Hell is writing new material, since they played new songs on their live show, so we might not even have to have the debate anyway. ;)

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:08 pm 
 

Then it would be hard to further block bands like this, since here the original composer is a part of the band too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Mages

Heaven and Hell of course will get accepted with their new material anyway, but their listing with the live album only would mean a submission of demoless bands with the listing of their old demos under their old names, not to speak about possible submissions of new projects of former members of famous bands - for example (fictional) new project by Abbath imo.


Last edited by Witcher on Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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prezuiwf
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:31 am
Posts: 72
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:14 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
Then it would be hard to further block bands like this, since here the original composer is a part of the band too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Mages


So? Go ahead and add them as long as they're metal. Hell, I'd do it myself with a go-ahead. It's silly to call someone a cover artist when they're playing their own music.

Also, thank you Morrigan. I know the precedent sounds like it might be bad but really, how many situations exactly like this are there? I don't think you'd see a flood of cover bands being submitted due to this decision. As I said, it's fairly unique.

Anyway, I don't want to piss anyone off by adding them if it's determined they're against the rules, so I'll hold off unless someone expressly tells me I should add them.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:20 pm 
 

prezuiwf wrote:
Witcher wrote:
Then it would be hard to further block bands like this, since here the original composer is a part of the band too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Mages


So? Go ahead and add them as long as they're metal. Hell, I'd do it myself with a go-ahead. It's silly to call someone a cover artist when they're playing their own music.

Also, thank you Morrigan. I know the precedent sounds like it might be bad but really, how many situations exactly like this are there? I don't think you'd see a flood of cover bands being submitted due to this decision. As I said, it's fairly unique.

Anyway, I don't want to piss anyone off by adding them if it's determined they're against the rules, so I'll hold off unless someone expressly tells me I should add them.


Personally I would not care so much, but then the users should not came crying here and insulting me, that I have rejected their precious demoless band -" but there are members of Beseech there" and the like.
I got such band at least three times this week.

As you can hear, Black Mages are metal, the first song is even in euro power style, the second in prog metal and the reviews indicate, that all of their material is like that.
http://www.square-enix.co.jp/music/sem/ ... index.html

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9376
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:18 pm 
 

Black Mages is more hard rock than metal, and it's rock versions of video game songs, so original composer or not, they're out. It's not a band name change, like H&H is.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:46 pm 
 

Back to Heaven and Hell . from me on prezuiwf can submit them straight away, but the other users should not expect, that their brazilian power metal band will be accepted under two different names with the demo with completely same name and tracklist.

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prezuiwf
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:31 am
Posts: 72
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:54 pm 
 

Thank you, I very much appreciate it!

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dust666
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:46 pm
Posts: 683
Location: Romania
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:28 pm 
 

Shouldn't there be a country tag at the band name? There are two other Heaven and Hell's on the archives.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:36 pm 
 

Quote:

If you believe the band Heaven And Hell (UK) contains error in its data that you cannot correct yourself, that simply should not be here, or that should be reviewed by a moderator for whatever reasons, you can report it here.

Just enter the reason(s) for this report here (ex: is not an heavy metal band, contains tracklisting errors, etc.).

The band will be flagged and reviewed by a moderator.

It is already corrected.

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PhantomOTO
Exterminator 666 Does Not Answer

Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:19 am
Posts: 3242
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:28 pm 
 

I think the closest precedent to this situation of Oliver/Dawson Saxon. They have only released live albums and DVDs on which they perform exclusively old Saxon songs, and maybe throw in a few by Son of a Bitch, which was practically the same band as Oliver/Dawson Saxon and had recorded an album of originals.

Also, couldn't "The Devil Cried," "Shadow of the Wind," and "Ear in the Wall" be considered original material by Heaven and Hell, in some sense?

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GVOLTT
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:33 pm
Posts: 478
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:53 pm 
 

One question; why were they added a month and a week before the release date of the DVD/live album? I thought the material must be officially released first before a band gets added here.
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prezuiwf
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:31 am
Posts: 72
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:58 pm 
 

GVOLTT wrote:
One question; why were they added a month and a week before the release date of the DVD/live album? I thought the material must be officially released first before a band gets added here.


Normally I wouldn't have suggested that the band be added before the official release, but the live album was accepted on the Black Sabbath page and was apparantly non-controversial. Also, future releases are allowed as long as their info has been confirmed.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:01 pm 
 

GVOLTT wrote:
One question; why were they added a month and a week before the release date of the DVD/live album? I thought the material must be officially released first before a band gets added here.



Because prezuiwf was so convinced about his submission of a major, famous metal band, that I have not validated the dates- the album was already added to B. S. page, as is the rather unpleasant practice here. I will not remove them now, since it would not help anybody. Fortunately, it is not such a long time, and the albums will get really released, when the earth does not explode or something like that.


Last edited by Witcher on Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:03 pm 
 

prezuiwf wrote:
Also, future releases are allowed as long as their info has been confirmed.



To clarify - only for already added bands with other legit released material.

The album was not accepted, as I have told, some point hungry moron has added it once again immediately when the tracklisting was confirmed and the cover published.

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MMisantropo
Magnificient Degluter of Yummy Ants

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:34 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
Back to Heaven and Hell . from me on prezuiwf can submit them straight away, but the other users should not expect, that their brazilian power metal band will be accepted under two different names with the demo with completely same name and tracklist.


It's not exactly the same case, because H&H's is an altogether new album, with previously unreleased recordings.

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SF01
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:30 pm
Posts: 18
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:40 am 
 

PhantomOTO wrote:
Also, couldn't "The Devil Cried," "Shadow of the Wind," and "Ear in the Wall" be considered original material by Heaven and Hell, in some sense?



Those songs were released under Black Sabbath name, and there are no informations in the booklet that those three tracks are "performed by Heaven and Hell", thus they are considered Sabbath tracks.
Which made H&H a cover band until 2009 when they released album with tracks created by the band "Heaven and Hell".

I know that replying to topic which is 'dead' for 5 years is stupid, byt I was looking for information why they were accepted to MA while they had no original material and were only playing old Sabbath tracks.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9376
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:11 pm 
 

Quote:
I know that replying to topic which is 'dead' for 5 years is stupid

And yet you do it anyway? :durr:
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you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
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Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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