What do you think about veganism? Are you supporting the movement?, are you against it?

I just think everyone should mind his own f*ckin' business, I mean, I respect vegans as long as they respect "meat-eaters".
I think many would agree that many vegans are dickheads, but of course also some meat-eaters are also assholes to the vegans.

I take that stance on a lot of things.

But everyone has a motive for doing stuff, and that's something to consider. Like, I've considered becoming a vegetarian just because I like animals; not because I think it'd make me better than someone who eats meat. I'd never be a vegan though. I don't care what they say, it's not healthy to abstain from that much protein, calcium, etc.

I think that this topic is long for this world and that this is a pretty useless way for you to say absolutely nothing. I only wish I could send this to the grave.


Since I'm already here:



There's plenty of ways to nourish the body without animal products. Honestly the difference between veganism and vegetarianism isn't very big. And a lot of the vegan replacement products are in fact healthier than regular products. Aside from that where you thinking all this protein, calcium, etc is coming from in a vegetarian diet? It's coming from the same shit vegans eat.

Cancerous.

I think it's a very extreme position. It's one thing to be simply a vegetarian and not eat meat due to not supporting the meat industry or due to processed meat and red meat in particular being very bad for you on a long term, but people who don't eat eggs or cheese due to politically reasons because they feel it's "exploitation of animals" are crazy. Cows don't exactly seem to hate getting milked and chickens are too stupid to know what's inside their eggs or what you're gonna do with them. Point is, neither of them get killed or tortured just so we can buy cheese and eggs.

Honestly, vegans come across as holier-than-thou people who want to feel morally superior to you just because "I have the utmost respect for animals!". I've even seen some vegans comparing slaughterhouses to the Holocaust. Yeah sorry but a cow's life is less important than a human one to me, so equating the meat industry to human genocide is simply madness to me.

Well that's your opinion. Ask someone in India how they feel about cows. It's an opinion, people shit on vegans cause people like to shit on things that abscond from "normality". Sure lots of vegans are pretentious douche bags about being vegan. But the fact remains it's a lifestyle choice based on opinions. And your opinion on vegans isn't high.

Also just cause "they don't seem to mind being milked" or "are too stupid to realize what's in their eggs" doesn't mean they aren't living creatures who deserve respect and ethical treatment you fucking twat. They actually deserve more respect because they grant you nutrients to live by. So show a little fucking respect for that which dies to keep you alive.

I could not agree more, It is a you say, very extreme. I also think that human life is more important, if a person was put in a position in which he needs to choose between killing another human being or a cow, of course he would kill the cow.

Agreed. This is pretty much my opinion in a nutshell. I don't mind their lifestyles and choices at all, just shut the hell up about it when talking to others.

lol excuse me? If you don't think birds can recognize their own offspring...what??

I guess I eat vegan/vegetarian like half the days of week by happenstance. Merely because cooking with meat takes a bit mere forethought and preparation than vegetables and beans and rice and whatnot. But going without dairy products seems pretty harsh. I'm fine with almond/soy milks but I haven't had any non dairy cheese worth a damn.

In a perfect world, we'd only eat the meat that we hunt and harvest humanely ourselves. Not likely gonna happen considering the monetary barriers to hunting are significant. Factory farming is obviously unethical from a conservation standpoint but that's one of the battles I don't have the strength of will to constantly fight. When I want to buy beef and sausage at the store, I'm gonna do it and just tell myself, "yeah, sucks really bad for the animals. Won't let you go to waste."

Freshly harvested duck and venison though... Oh my god, can't be beat. Tastes rich and amazing (depending on their habitat/diet tho), and you get the satisfaction of giving them a clean, fair death after a deserving life in the wild. Really makes you consider exactly where your food comes from as well.

I think the cow and chicken thing is more of the treatment of those animals in the vast majority of the production of stuff like milk and eggs. Sure, the open-field cows and chickens may have a great life producing milk and eggs. But I doubt the factory-living ones do.

Having said that, I eat meat and would never value animals remotely as high as humans. Even though animal cruelty is obviously disturbing.

There are clearly differences in treatment, such as these three levels from better to worse:

Here's more pictures, some of them are disturbing and definitely NSFW

http://www.vegetarismus.ch/bilder/eindex.htm

Well, there's milk, eggs, and cheese. Perhaps you've heard of those. Also, peanuts typically contain gelatin which some vegans won't eat. You even have to pay attention to which beers are safe to drink. Finally, vegans have to use a specific type of condom to avoid using ones that have casein, an animal product.



E: Not that anyone should be eating condoms. That's just to demonstrate the disparate level of inconvenience between being a simple vegetarian and vegan.

I was reminded of this thread where the OP was lashing out against other people for not being vegan.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=94260&hilit=vegan

Soy milk is healthier than regular dairy milk, vegan cheese has less calories and more nutrients than dairy cheese. Tempeh and other meat substitutes are rich in protein and fiber, typically beer that uses fish products is shit beer that isn't worth consuming in the first place. Some vegans also eat eggs, don't ask me how or why cause I don't know.

Oh please, it's not like I'm defending bullfighting. Now that is barbaric. Just torturing an animal and charge people tickets for entertainment. Just cause I don't think it's unethical to eat cheese, eggs or meat doesn't mean I don't have respect for animals. Well maybe chicken aren't stupid to that point but let's not pretend they're one the smartest animal species out there.

Well Indians don't go around petitioning for a worldwide ban of cow meat consumption do they? Plus Hindus have the "religion" card to play so people tend to respect their decision more. I dont' see people railing on Muslims and Jews for not eating pork either, even though those two religions get shat on a lot.

Also, what about the fish? What do vegans have to say about them? How much do the fish suffer?


Well yeah, it depends also on the country and such. In some places animals suffer more than necessary, without a doubt. it isn't exactly a black and white issue.

However I wonder if there's an effective way to kill tons of animals without making them suffer much. I mean poisoning them would make their meat improper for consumption. It's not like I like the idea of animals suffering at the slaughterhouse. In a perfect world they'd be put down without suffering at all, but is that possible? Genuine question.

I'm not about to sit here and throw a bunch of links at you that you'll never read. If you're interested look into sustainability of the meat and fish industries and how bad they are for the planet. Look into the deplorable conditions of the animals. Look into how much food goes to waste in first world countries and how many animals die just to get thrown into the trash. And look into how bad it is for the environment to endure all that waste.

Well. I'll go out on a limb and say you're healthier than I am I guess I'll duck out of this one. I was just going by anecdotal evidence anyway; I've got a vegan friend who looks like one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse. If you know your way around alternatives, then that's awesome man, go for it.

The production of tons of meat and stuff is an economical issue. Not to turn it into a capitalism vs. non-capitalism thread, but I'm sure most would agree that capitalism's constant hunt for more profit isn't helping in questions of suffering, environment, honesty in labeling/marketing/info, etc.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if technology in a not so distant future will have reached a point where there can be artificially made versions of meat, and other things, that have identical flavour, texture and so on as the real thing. And maybe with improved things like it not going bad and having to be thrown away.

That's the shitty human in you talking. Instead of just admitting that we as a species are a terrible fucking parasite on the earth and all its inhabitants and changing our ways we hope for someone to invent a way for us to keep on keeping on.

Wouldn't it just be easier if everyone in a first world country cut back a bit. I'm not talking new world order of vegans here. I'm just saying if everyone in first world nations recognized that we're killing the only planet we have for no good fucking reason other than to profit the wealthy then maybe just maybe we could solve a lot of our problems. If everyone took one less meal with meat think of how many animals and how much waste would be spared.

They're already working on that. There's a company called Memphis Meats that is essentially growing beef in a dish by using cells taken from cows. As far as I know, they can only grow a meatball (i.e. blob of meat) right now, but think in the future they plan on being able to recreate any cut of meat, with marbling and all.

People tend to get grossed out by the concept, but I think it's kind of cool. What do you guys think?

Actually, those pictures are a bit misleading, based on what I've read. From what I understand most of the time "free range" chickens are actually kept in pretty humane conditions, but "cage free" chickens often have even worse lives than regular tiny cage factory farm chickens. They're packed in just as tightly (just as many birds per unit of space) and not having bars between the birds just means that birds are free to attack one another, which they do with startling frequency. Apparently it's pretty common for them to just literally peck the assholes out of weaker birds and eat them.

Ethically I'm mostly on board with veganism, though I wouldn't have any moral problem at all wearing leather clothes from animals that had died naturally, and for some reason beekeeping doesn't really seem to be all that evil. Exploiting animals higher than insects does seem wrong to me, at least in the case of individuals who have the option to do otherwise. That said, I will admit my own moral failings because I love eating meat and dairy products. I don't think that particular weakness of mine is something I would ever want to try to give up, because I'm selfish and meat makes me happy. However, under the right economic (and access) circumstances I would absolutely try to eat humane animal products 100% of the time. Yeah, it's still wrong, but it's less abhorrent than standard factory farming practices.

Oh and yes, all of my problems would get solved by lab-grown meat. I would eat the hell out of that and savor every single bite. Bring the vats of pulsating flesh!

People shit on them because of the very vocal minority of vegans that call omnivores "murderers" and go around posting animal abuse pics on Facebook, or handing out literature with graphic photos of mutilated animals. (Fun fact: "murder" is a legal term for specific instances of humans killing humans, so it doesn't apply to nonhumans.) And the ones who never shut up about their "lifestyle choices," and promote nonsense about their being "pus" in milk. I also see a lot of FB videos shares promoting blatant lies (often about milk, but also about things like human teeth) that are easily disproven,but people either believe them or share them for shock value.

Also, meat is not such a black and white issue. Just because some animals are in bad conditions doesn't mean all are. I've known a lot of farmers. I live in the country. So I can understand why dairy and meat farmers could have an issue sometimes, if some vegans are acting like they are torturing animals and keeping them in inhumane conditions, as if the only two options are veganism and outright animal torture.


Kind of going on a tangent here, but another thing that surprises me is when omnivores (not "carnivores," of which there are very few or none) say they have "meatless mondays" or "ate a vegan meal." Not because they didn't eat meat, but because they must eat a fucking lot of it at every meal if it's noteworthy to have ONE meal or one day without! I probably eat many veg*n meals but I don't call them "vegan meals," I just call them "meals."

And another tangent: leather and other animal products. Some animals have been and are killed for fur, not disputing that, but isn't leather just kind of a byproduct of already slaughtering cows for meat? Would vegans rather people throw away usable parts that are already there? I also own several vintage fur coats, which I inherited from people dying. Are cows killed for leather? I thought they were mainly killed for meat.

It should be obvious that, generally speaking, other things being equal, it's bad to cause suffering. There are plenty of questions pertaining to the application of that principle, and to its interaction with other principles, but it's astonishing that people seem to neglect that most basic starting point. The philosophic case for veganism puts it as more-or-less the default position; you have to work to justify anything else.

But, the following is at least as important: It matters HOW we come by our ethical commitments. Someone doing something because it is a fad, helps them fit in, gives them a sense of superiority, etc... does not really get ethical credit for it -- in fact, it detracts. And I think it is more common than even the more cynical people suspect for vegans to be internal corrupted by "bad faith", distortive influences...

But if someone simply meditates on the facts of the matter and finds themselves not eating animal products as a result, that's terrific and admirable. Generally speaking though, all of our influences are extremely fucked up, distorted, impure, and that kind of clarity is very rare.

And, of course, that doesn't mean that meat-eaters are generally in better intellectual shape. They arrive at their positions by way of many biases as well. We're just fucked around by awful human psychology to put us on opposing sides of an issue -- even if one of us is correct, it's rare that any of us deserves credit for being correct.

That's really interesting, I didn't know about that. It sounds great on paper, for sure, but GMOs are always gonna be a bit iffy. I heard they were doing something similar with rice in some far-east Asian country (can't remember which, I don't want to guess). I think that's a step in the right direction overall though. Also, totally calling meatballs "meatblobs" from now on


That's exactly what I meant to say in my first post, just so everyone here knows.

Another issue:

Where I live, there is a lot of deer hunting. This is because the land cannot support as many deer as we have because of humans taking up so much space. If you let the deer breed out of control, they will either (1) die of starvation, which is worse than a bullet to the head, or (2) run out in the highways and kill themselves and people too. The only two real options are hunting them or allowing them to kill themselves and people. That could only be avoided if we got rid of highways and cities, which we are not going to do.

And yet, people act like hunters are complete sadistic assholes without any sort of moral compass. Sure, they might enjoy it as a sport, but if the deer numbers outweigh the carrying capacity of the land, they are also doing the remaining deer a favor.

Also, I dislike the idea that "if you knew where your food came from, you wouldn't eat meat." Have these people never met a farmer? I don't farm, hunt, or fish, but I've been around when animals get slaughtered. I've helped gut deer, etc. I know where meat comes from. I don't support prolonged torture, but I am ok with hunting animals for meat.

iamntbatman really nailed the way I feel about veganism. I'm morally against things like factory farming, animal cruelty, the environmental effects of the meat industry, etc. Vegans also enjoy overall better health, according to many studies.
Problem is, meat is fuckin tasty.
If I can get to a point where it's economically feasible for me and I can snap the habit of eating meat, I'd love to hop on the vegan train at some point.

Or it could be that they watch everything they eat because they have concerns about whether it contains animal products or not.

Same thing has been shown about people who suddenly start keeping a food diary, they are now paying more attention and being accountable, so they may make healthy choices due to that.

Sure, it's been shown that too much red meat is linked with health problems, but I don't think it's been shown that cutting out ALL meat necessarily makes you healthy. I know plenty of overweight and unhealthy vegans, and meat eaters that run marathons. I just think a lot of it may be accountability and paying attention, not necessarily the absence of animal products. I'd imagine the very same results would be shown by people who simply eat a lot of fruits and vegetables and not a lot of red meats, etc.

That study could also be attributed to the style of meat consumed, sausages, patties, over-cooked meat, i.e. things that fuck up the human body. It wasn't a very thorough study at all yet that didn't stop people from accepting it as fact. Every other day there's a study that says tea, chocolate, red wine, cheese is good for you, every other day it's utter cancer. What few people understand is most of these bullshit studies are paid off by big companies like The American Heart Association so their products hit the shelves and shoppers are eager to buy them, naivety to adhere to an outdated dietary model.

Yeah, I've known vegans who were unhealthy as fuck. I knew a girl in college who was super overweight and vegan because her diet was like 80% oreos. Mostly vegans are "healthier" simply because they're paying attention to what they eat and (usually) not just eating shitloads of oreos. I would be willing to bet the actual health differences between a vegan diet and an omnivorous diet where both are paying equal attention to macro and micronutrients are incredibly small/negligible.

And in the case of non-corrupted studies, most people don't read the study, but merely the media report on the study. And even most media "journalists" don't seem to read the study, but merely parts of its conclusion. For example if a study with hundreds of pages of data mentions in it's conclusion something like "we can not rule out that cheese may increase the risk of cancer", or "this data seem to suggest that there are some correlation between consumtion of cheese and health problems, some of which may increase cancer", the media report will probably be "CHEESE CAN GIVE YOU CANCER".


And Oreos aren't even vegan: http://www.oreo.co.uk/faq

Depends how strict you are. Regular Oreos don't contain animal products, but now they have those chocolate-covered ones which contain milk that are made in the same room.

Man, this reminds me of a guy I knew in college - he was vegetarian but quite obviously for ethical reasons alone, since he'd normally have a slice of cheese pizza and a donut for breakfast. Wasn't that overweight but I remember he always spent a long time and was comically loud when taking a shit.

When it comes to animal products like meat, fish, eggs, etc. I only eat them when I get them in super high quality and from sources where the animals are treated well.
The treatment of the animals doesn't only make the ethical issue less problematic, it also increases the quality of the food automatically, because eating eggs from chickens who are able to feed on worms and bugs they find themselves makes the eggs more nutritious. I buy salmon fished from the sea as well, but only if it's from sustainable fishing, so I can keep eating it in the future.
It's also a very , VERY expensive way to obtain these products, which makes you cut down on them a bit automatically.

There's a lot of hate on vegans and vegetarians here, wow. I know a lot of vegans and they are never preachy or annoying, and most of the bullshit on the internet about this is - as here - other people bitching about vegans. I don't understand how you can be offended about people who actively makes the world suck less by using less resources and causing fewer emissions. Do you have any idea how bad the meat industry is for the climate, and thus everyone? It's a shame if you don't want to think critically about your own consumption, but it's fine all the same - I'm not here to decide for you how to live. But to look down on others who actually takes a decision to change their ways for the better of everyone? Stop being an asshole and say thanks to the next vegan you meet. And just to make sure: I'm not vegan, but I usually only eat meat a few times a week.

I don't have any issues with veganism or if anyone wants to be vegan. I love chicken so I will continue to eat it, even if they don't like it.

There's not much I can add to the discussion, but I will tell you a short story: I was dining with two friends a couple of years ago in Melbourne. One of them was vegan. Me and the other friend did a "meat challenge" - basically a rack of ribs and a huge 1kg steak with fries. We had one each. Our vegan friend ordered a salad. And with basically a whole animal on our plates, he was a great sport. Never complained, never commented. He knew that he wanted to be vegan, and respected our desire to continue eating meat. That's the kind of veganism I definitely support.

This is the sort of attitude that makes people look down on vegans, yeah.

Reading through the comments above, also, I'm not seeing a lot of hate towards vegans at all. Most of the comments seem pretty calm.

I have quite a few vegan friends and they are all sane and nice people who respect other's choices. I think some, including me, were just explaining why people talk shit on vegans, namely, the ones who start shrieking about murder when someone is minding their own business and having a sandwich, or the ones who think all farmers mistreat their animals (even the dairy ones who don't raise them for meat).

I think Michael Shermer posted something on Facebook with some stupid sounding word like "reducitarianism," and though I think the word is stupid, I think that's more practical and a more reasonable expectation: reducing meat consumption, without necessarily eliminating all animal products. Maybe someday everyone will do that, but I don't think it's likely to happen right now.

That's exactly right. The only thing that irks me is when folks who buy organic and farmed stuff talk about their shopping in a smug af tone. Like excuse me but I only buy certified___, with ____, ____ enriched, vegan friendly, ___ beneficial products directly 30km from Adelaide where the animals are spoon fed a four course meal and read Roald Dahl stories in a cloud shaped bed made of organic daily moisturized cotton. It's like please STFU, Stan Marsh.

How common is that?

I'm a vegan. To be honest, I never really talk about it but most people who find out act like I'm a loony. Or like I am implictly judging them. Whatever.

I can respect purely ethical veganism. But that often comes with insufferable moralizing and a holier-than-thou attitude which is hard to tolerate without either becoming a sneering venomous prick or wanting to punch the hell out of that wordy mouth and stupid smirk.

But what I especially dislike is deluded political veganism. In short, "voting with your money" is the dumbest idea when it comes to massive-scale, complex problems.

I specifically stated it was a very vocal minority. I was explaining why people talk shit on vegans, not suggesting those people are common.