That about unemployement check is just not true. For example; Fenriz quit highschool to work so that he go buy equipment for Darkthrone. He took what was a huge risk, and lucky for him (and for us) it turned great.

Americans' British ancestors were also forcibly converted in much the same way around AD 700. And 1000 years later they came to America and did it to the Native Americans, and tried to forcibly convert each other from one church to another (i.e. the US fighting a war with Mormons in 1857).

Maybe they are just pissed off because they can't see the sun for months. Seasonal affective disorder is a thing!

As Kveldulv and a few others have rightly pointed out, it is a mistake to overly associate black metal with Scandinavia, despite the obvious importance of, for example, the early Norwegian scene.

And there's no inherent irony. Black metal does not write songs about the woeful lack of material goods. It repudiates that very lifestyle in a romanticised, nostalgic way. It's not about not having a comfortable bed to sleep in or anything like that...not sure why anyone would think that.

As for attacking other abrahamic religions, sure, in the countries where they apply. Most western nations have been heavily influenced and had their cores shaped by christianity. While people in the uSA, Canada, or most parts of Europe might individually have negative things to say about Islam, it's not as though Islam has had any influence on the societies of these countries. Christianity is a more logical target.

That said, there are certainly bands that write anti-judaic and anti-Islamic songs.

How exactly does this relate to Scandanavian black metal rather than just being a dig at a country for having a social welfare system? The lack of specific examples makes it seem like "Transilvanian Hunger" is laughable because there isn't a real threat of starvation to the artist. "World Hunger" would be a much more serious subject to address, wouldn't it? Of course, in first-world countries, it's more of a slogan for a charity cause than a real problem that people face. Maybe we should just replace "Satan" with "US tax code" if we want a *real* issue that people deal with.



It depends on what era and what groups you are looking at. God Seed is perhaps the only band where a band member allegedly collects unemployment - a complete joke for many other reasons too. What about Mayhem in the early 90s? They lived in a house/cabin where they rehearsed, they worked jobs and were heavily involved in their hobbies. The one member who didn't work was living on welfare - an immigrant who chased his dream of fronting a metal band to another country, likely unemployable due to his severe mental health issues. Does living in Sweden/Norway invalidate the lyrics to "Life Eternal" if he could've received better treatment?



Well said.

I mostly agree with you, populace accepts what the leaders say and if not they are forced to do it, I life in a land where inquisition did the filthy work and if you showed other faiths you could be burned, as it happened.



Once again I agree, it seems that if you criticize other religions you become an intolerant or a nazi maggot, the best reasoned critics are mixed with the most extreme right-wind parties in order to invalidate their opinions. This is the moment when you realize that too much tolerance is bad too.
The other day I discussed about the burka, I don’t see what I have to accept it if they are so intolerant with western manners in the Arabic countries.

Woolie_Wool



Its not my intention to offend anyone, but the ones who travelled from Europe to America where the most intolerant and extreme religious, not only they forced Native Americans to convert themselves to their religion but also they did a pure genocide. Just see the ridicule amount of Native American who live nowadays in their lands.

Just because you are blessed (haha) with a comfortable life doesn't mean you can't be full of anguish, anger and hatred. I have a happy life but I yell in a punk band and write pissed-off lyrics because I am very pissed off at the world in general.
Plus the fact that Scandinavia is fucking cold and dark with lots of suicides, so it must be pretty bleak to live there. Add that to teenage angst, and there you go.

I don't think the 'comfortable life doesn't equal anguish' is what I was saying. Rich kids get the nicest equipment, thus their shit ends up sounding better. Or...more likely...they can just BE in bands because they have that gear, a space to practice, etc. Any dumbshit can be sad for no reason but the means to assemble a band and record albums is only afforded to the few. Even in this age when most people have recording software on their computer, the rich kids have the best.

And if I were looking to be in a band - I'd want to jam at the kid's who has the nicest house.

Money nothing have with black metal unless to buy better instruments.
Perhaps scandinavian musicians know how to make really good metal music and scandinavian people knows to appreciate good metal. But always we have Britney Spears, Madonna, something Timberlake.

These are all just umbrella assumptions, you can't assume anything about anyone's individual situation and decide it makes their music less or more 'legit. Rich kids may have the money to get better gear. Does it mean all of them automatically have better sounding music? On the contrary, having everything spoonfed to them would erode their discipline and commitment, 2 things you most definitely need to make good music. But does it always happen this way too? Not necessarily either.

Not everyone in a rich country is rich, and not every form of angry music has to be by people angry for a specific set of reasons. Too many assumptions about this topic to even make a half-intelligent guess, let alone any sort of proper conclusion.

Could it possibly have something to do with artists, by their nature, possessing an imaginative capacity? I mean, I'm pretty sure that no one in Iron Maiden actually fought in the Battle of Britain, but they've sure as shit been opening with "Aces High" for a minute, now.

lol it's true though.

Chile!? Of all places? Is Chile the "Lost Cradle of Black Metal"? Is there any way you can back that up? Is that a fact? Or your just saying it because that's your homescene?

Glad you got the joke, man.

I do agree, though; if they're rebelling at all, that's pretty much the only way to do it. If not, that's where Napero and his 1% comes in, and that 1% is generous.

if you take the argument it actually makes more sense than you would think. giving a person everything they need/want is a great way to make them miserable, angry, and genuinely unsatisfied with their surroundings.

How many norwegian or Swedish black metal bands were around 1986 (and actually playing some sort of black metal) besides Mayhem? Here there were 2 at least: Bloody Cross and Death Yell. If we talk about the development of extreme metal, there was Pentagram as well.

See that black metal in South America was born from the very source: Venom, MF, Slayer and such. In Brazil black metal existed as a scene before than norway, with bands like Vulcano, Mystifier and Sarcófago (which were a huge influence for the rest to come). Necroabyssious (Varathron) has stated that the band started at the end of the 80's influenced not by norwegians but by the brazilian scene, Slayer, Morbid Angel, Venom and HH/CF.

I wasn't asking about Brazilian bands since I already knew them, and wasn't defending Scandinavia either. My question was because I've never had heard Chile being relevant or even mentioned when talking about pre-second wave BM. Thanks for your answer. I had never heard about those three Chilean bands.

I see what you mean, but it also gives them the spare time to actually make the music. Tons of people are miserable, angry, and genuinely unsatisfied with their surroundings. Unlike musicians, they have to deal with it in ways that don't involve writing music. Everything about making music takes a lot of spare time, and the people with the most spare time just so happens to be those who struggle the least.

Of course, scapegoating an entire group of people - even Muslims - won't do much to solve the world's ills. And I appeal here not to "liberal tolerance" but to basic common sense. Human beings of any religion (or ethnicity) are not automatons - they respond to, and are shaped by, the circumstances around them. If first-generation, European-born Muslims feel alienated from the society they've grown up in, maybe that has to do with the prejudices of the "natives" as much as any supposed Islamic indoctrination.

Important enough scene that it has a book written about it even:

Except that the entire basis of metal and Western popular music in general comes from black people in the rural southern US who grew up in absolutely crushing poverty, struggle, and suffering who nonetheless somehow found the time in between days of backbreaking sharecropping labor to build the foundation of the music 90% of people in the Western world listen to.

And as for metal itself, Tony Iommi lost two fingertips operating a machine at a sheet metal factory. Rich kids did not work in sheet metal factories.

Come to think of it, pretty much all of metal, at least until the early '90s, was spearheaded largely by people who lived hard, blue-collar lives before they became well-known musicians.

Joey DeMaio - worked as a roadie for Black Sabbath in 1980, probably making a pitiful wage.
Ozzy Osbourne - grew up in the slums of Birmingham, so poor his family couldn't afford to buy him shoes much of the time. Did a number of very low-paying odd jobs and spent time in prison due to having to rob stores to get clothing.
Dave Mustaine - born into a broken home, ran away in his teens and lived on the street selling drugs for a few years
Jon Schaffer - Dropped out of high school and spent some time homeless
Per Yngve Ohlin - Lived on welfare and the generosity of his bandmates in Mayhem because he was too goddamn crazy to hold down a job
Steve Harris - Could only afford to spend 40 pounds on his first bass
Mike Portnoy - delivered pizzas to make ends meet before Dream Theater signed with Atlantic Records

It takes a lot of money to self finance a high quality recording, but a cheap used guitar/amp to practice with and play some local shows with would generally be accessible to people living in first world countries.

People in the '80s didn't "self-finance a high quality recording", they recorded demos to cheap tape machines and distributed them to anyone who would take them in hopes of getting a record contract. Metal was born on shitty guitars recorded to shitty tapes with shitty mics in urban slums.

I honestly don't even understand what this thread is about at this point. Just a lot of voices screaming shit. Hell, like I nod along with what Woolie_Wool says but I don't even know how its pertinent.

I know, the point was that instruments are generally affordable enough to not limit metal to those from middle/upper class backgrounds. At least guitars, drums seem a little pricey but people still manage to get them.
EDIT: this was in response to woolie wool.

Real poor kids play trashcan drums, like Lars.

Yeah, I agree that tarring metal as a whole with the "rich kids" brush is laughable. Certainly the Andrew Jay Harrises of the world are far more the exception than the rule, especially when you include Latin American and Eastern Bloc countries in the mix. As Woolie's list above will attest, the members of most of the really seminal metal bands didn't come from particularly moneyed backgrounds - hell, the guys who more or less birthed heavy metal (Sabbath) were dirt poor and basically illiterate (other than Geezer) at the start of their career.

Of course, there's always Bobby Liebling from Pentagram, whose father made a nice chunk of change as an assistant to the U.S. Secretary of Defense, and who was evidently financially dependent on his long-suffering folks into his 50's. But I think that could be considered an exception that proves the rule.

Even if a lot of metal musicians did come from wealthy background (which I don't think is the case) it doesn't suddenly make the musicians horrible people and make the music lose all value. And its not like being born into money suddenly gives you the ability to write music and play an instrument, it just gives you an opportunity to learn those skills if you work towards them.

What about musicians who come from a poor background and make music about life on the streets? Surely this offers a more authentic, genuine view of the torment of life than black metal from the socialist paradises of northern Europe.

I've known about that band for a while, but only as the butt of jokes. Holy shit, Rick is an awful vocalist.

From the three, Pentagram is the best known. They have been mentioned as influence by At the Gates, Napalm Death, Dismember, Avulsed and even Darkthrone. Death Yell released a split with Beherit in 91. Both bands split up in early 90's and resurrected just recently, maybe that's why you haven't heard about them before but back in the day they were well known in the underground.

Decided to check Death Yell out. Holy shit this is cool

So what you are saying is that we who are fed, clothed, warm and safe should shut up, sit back, watch our reality shows and occasionally praise the lord jesus, while those who are starving and dying from disease should spend their time writing books and making movies?
Hmmm... I do wonder why the world isn't working like that?

This post made me grin.

Also, it must surely be coincidence, but every CHilean metal band I've heard has been great...everythign from Atomic Aggressor to Pentagram to Bewitched and, of course, Death Yell. The scene may not be large but it surely was/is great.

I wanted to mention Apostasy as well.

As far as an artist's economic situation in life, it has nothing to do with your world view at all. Like the old saying goes "money doesn't buy you happiness", and just because you are well off doesn't mean you can't possess misanthropic or nihilistic outlooks on life, or just because you are poor doesn't make you bitter.

Original post was about black metal, so in that context questions of material confort are irrelevant. Black metal, even those from less well-off backgrounds and countries, was never about socio-economic conditions. So to wonder about the sincerity of black metal's rebellion against Christianity (and other things) from a "they had cushy lives in advanced Scandinavia, therefore they had nothing to hate" completely misses the point of what motivated them.

Illiterate? Never 'eard that one before. Where'd you read that?

this is an interesting topic. eh read and spoken with academic experts on Western culture and behavior among people living in certain areas of the world. much of this behavior has to do with the climate where these people live and their culture is closely related. It has been found that people who live in places with cold and temperate climate are more likely to be "unhappy", "depression" and even "hateful" . Those living on the tropics where the sun shines every day of the year. Where culture is more "cheerful" and bright.