I completely agree with you awheio on that. Having absolutely no reliance on your music doing well commercially frees you to pursue music in whatever way you damn well please. Moreover, life experiences are a great thing for musicians to draw from artistically and going out and doing things other than just playing music can give you thought and ideas that you wish to express musically.

I think the only person who said it detracts was KFD. Everyone else here pretty much is on board with that either working + creating music is both doable and can be done so to a high quality degree. I didn't think it was really an opinion that wasn't necessarily missing from the thread but underlining throughout the entire thread.

But yes I agree with awheio and apteronotus. Largely why I can produce so many releases... I don't have to worry if they sell or not because I'm not reliant on it... but be it noted that I don't actually have to fund my music as such anymore. My sales actually have been funding the next release or next pile of merch I put out.

Yea, if I can just get to that level (where I can sustain my musical endeavors with album sales) then I'll be happy. But I first need to start with releasing an album....

Anyway, even if I never have a physical album release, I'll still continue to make music for myself and share it with whoever wants to hear it. That's really all I give a damn about, and that's also the only thing that I need to keep going. I don't know if that's what you mean by "something to show for it", but fuck, it was years and years of learning this shit.

That's my assumption of what he meant. Hell i started releasing my stuff physically cause I personally wanted it for my own collection. And since I went through that much effort I might as well make X amount to see incase anyone wanted any or to trade off to someone... or build a fort out of.

What the...?
I've been reported with a similar problem once. If you just want to hear music, here's my label's official Youtube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/SoleilBlanc ... ture=watch

Let me add that I'm seldom satisfied with my final results, I feel like being blocked at the demo stage. That's because I work on my own with few professional/financial means.

And you see, that's the problem. You are stuck at the demo stage because (amongst other things LOL) you can't afford better, because you don't have an actual job.

How hard is it to understand? Guitarist Joe can only afford a piece of shit Squire guitar with no humbuckers because he's sticking it to the man and not getting a job and living off his parents despite being 25. Has lots of rage against the evil capitalist system that obviously oppresses him but can only record with his Motorola flip-phone because he lost his iPhone while getting stoned in the park and mommy won't get him another one. Spends all day every day practicing guitar and writing Discharge and Doom worship songs.

Guitarist Kenny on the other hand goes to school and gets a job and plays music on the side. Has all the guitars and amps (Jackson RRV, Ibanez Prestige, Gibson Les Paul Studio, Carvin custom model, Engl Savage, Marshall JVM, Dual Recto, you name it) and recording equipment he needs because you know, he can afford it. If he doesn't want to do home recordings, he can book studio time and get it done there, no problem. Kenny can even send his material to Hertz studios or Mana studios to get it mastered, because he just got a year-end bonus. Last of all, paying for pressing? No problem, release it right after payday.

Which would you rather be? Jesus Christ you'd think it was simple enough.

Do you mean my music would be better if I invested more money in the production? Thanks for the compliment.

Anyway you don't seem to have read my previous posts (but don't worry: neither do I read yours). There's an antagonism between the time spent on earning money through a regular job (bound to the economy market) and the time spent on an artistic project.

With your post you imply two important things:
- getting a job with a good wage depends on your diploma level (which also depends on your social level, because studying at university can be expensive)
- being a musician implies a high income level.

So you're basically saying that only guys from the upper classes can afford decent equipment and produce quality recordings. I completely agree and already explained this theory in other threads.

But there's still this antagonism shown in my previous paragraph. Thus we have on one side rich musicians who release marketable music produced with important financial means (in short, capitalist music), and on the other side, amateur/semi-pro musicians who dedicate all their own limited means (money, time and energy) to creating something that cannot really surpass the demo stage, because of the limitations.

Sometimes these amateur/semi-pro musicians manage to attract enough public praise to make a living out of their own music: see the case of Peste Noire. Read the guy's latest statement about his activities: he clearly explains that he doesn't have enough time to care about anything else than his own band.

I already said amongst other things, which many users have already pointed out and should be so glaringly obvious that you shouldn't need someone to spell it out.

Both your 2 important points that you think my post implies are wrong. Perhaps get a friend who speaks English to help you with it.

You claim getting a job takes time away that could be spent on music. Are you saying ALL your spare time is spent playing your instruments,ALL? (hate to break it to you dude but it doesn't show). It was explained earlier in this thread that even full-time musicians don't spend as much time on their music as you think they do, due to the nature of the industry. There is an antagonism between a job and an artistic project only in terms of time. Yet, there is also an antagonism between sleeping and an artistic project. Imagine if the 7 hours of sleep every night could be spent on my music!

There is an antagonism between nearly any 2 activities in the world. Managing your time and your life is the key to getting things done, not whining about it. What are you, 8?

EDIT: My earlier post in the first page basically sums up and refutes everything you have said in a clear manner, simple enough for most normal people to comprehend. I know you ignore them because you are unable to refute them, but no one expects you to do that. Instead, reading it will provide some insight to the real world, something apparently unfamiliar to you, hence your continuing struggle to be a good....anything.

As for Peste Noire, boo fucking hoo. Many others have managed even more difficult situations. You should also understand that a lot of this 'whining' is an indirect marketing tactic. Make people feel like they're helping a poor old musician out of his poor lifestyle and they'll be more likely to buy records. It's sob story marketing, take it with a pinch of salt.

I don't disagree with your post, but I think you're taking wrong criteria into consideration. You only speak about time, equipment and money. What about the creative mood? Inspiration doesn't appear on command. It requires a particular spiritual state, thus a particular way of life.

I don't spend all my spare time playing. I can play for fun or for work (rehearse songs, improve my level etc). If I play for work, then it's not spare time but working time.

My friends who have a regular job usually have no more energy left for anything when they come home.

A prerequisite of creativity isn't a certain lifestyle, that's absurd. Inspiration can come from anywhere. Even the daily commute can inspire certain kinds of music. Did all great artists have a particular way of life? Inspiration comes from anywhere, whether you work in a meat packing factory, a cornfield, Google, or in a brothel.

Rehearsing songs and practicing isn't 'work'.

What a strange surprise. I have friends who are able to juggle multiple jobs and bands and still produce quality on all fronts. I myself am in college and work part-time occasionally here and there for extra cash. I don't consider my playing or writing to have suffered at all. If anything I'm getting better and better each day, slowly but surely. An example-driven point is not a point. Especially when so many counter-examples exist.

Most people switch on the TV or grab a beer or read a book after coming home from work. Since music is your thing, pick up the guitar and play instead of doing those other things. Play during the weekends. Play during your offdays. Basically, spend more freetime practicing instead of dicking around. As an adult, this is what you have to do. If you think it's tough, well it is. Nobody said it was supposed to be easy.

The bottom line is. Time is what you make out of it.

When I was unemployed I bought cheap shitty pedals to try and make a shitty amp sound better. I took the cheap way out and bought a Behringer Tuner which is crap. When I finally bought a 6505, I bough a cheap Behringer/Bugera cab.

We recorded the EP at rehearsal, and it was mixed by our bass player (since he as well was a cheapskate). The result? Great songs, crappy production and no attention because of it.

Now, I'm working as a consultant and earning a hefty salary. I don't have to do shit like that anymore. I bought a guitar with my first salary and I ordered a matching cab for my 6505 (still waiting for it). This fall we will enter a real studio to record a full length.

No more crap and that's all because money equals freedom!

Don't worry KFD will come in and say though you have the money now you are completely creatively void now regardless of all your experience and all the evidence supplied in this thread.

Death metal is not a spiritual music. It doesn't require the same creative mood as black metal or other religious genres. That's why our points of view differ.




Can't you understand that someone who has an exhausting job might want to relax when coming home? Just sit in front of TV and watch joke programs. It's a question of mental and physical energy. Practising drums or guitar at a high level requires the same amount of energy as official work. I won't spend any more time debating something so obvious. Thanks for your interest.

That's what weekends are for. If I can practice twice a week with my band and write music at home, while working and taking care of a family with two kids, then I bet that most people can too.

Yes, KFD, there are costs -- in terms of time and energy. But those costs are clearly not always insurmountable. Indeed, they often might be very worthwhile costs, because they will enable one to have the financial resources to afford equipment and to ensure artistic integrity.

I don't know what you mean by calling black metal a religious genre, and I don't know why you say that death metal is not "spiritual". I don't want to shift the topic to a debate about the nature of genres and so on, but I do want to urge that death metal can absolutely have the same depth that black metal has. Historically, perhaps it hasn't been put to use in the same way, but it has an immense amount of potential to serve "spiritual" functions similar to black metal; it would just likely be oriented toward a different "spiritual" dimension. (And it goes without saying that black metal is often, perhaps most often, spiritless).

For me, I know that I could not live off music that I made with artistic integrity. My artistic aspirations are just not the sorts of things enough people would be interested in. Consequently, I need a job. Given that I need a job, I figure I should get one that can be good as far as jobs go (e.g. intellectually engaging, promoting self-improvement). Such a job, according to you, would rule out the possibility of maintaining artistic integrity, at least if I understand you correctly. But it seems just the opposite to me: The job will allow me to earn money, but the time will not be otherwise wasted, because it will develop me and my personality in a way that I can in turn apply to my musical development. The money will help maintain integrity, and the self-improvement will help augment quality.

It's not really a question of time in terms of quantity. You can be more productive in one hour than in 5 or 6 - if you have inspiration, I mean, if you're driven by the Gods.




I know for instance that in Cuba, rock musicians are civil servants. I honestly don't know how the Cuban State manages artists in reality, but I like the idea. Let's take another example: when kings or nobles financed famous writers or painters to help them produce their works. Culture is not profitable. It's the soul of a civilisation. Spiritual things cannot be evaluated with material criteria.




Yes, but they spend all their time caring about their own music project. When they're not playing, they're doing promotion, or signing autographs, or answering interviews, whatever. They keep their mind focused about their own band. But since we evoke this topic, I can say that I don't really like doing promotion, updating my websites, etc, I'd rather care only about the creative process.




Most of our favourite bands' best efforts were produced during their teenage years. To name a few: Bathory's debut, Emperor's first album, Burzum, Enslaved... They had the teenage energy, and they worked with older assistants (like Pytten from Grieghallen) who helped them shape their raw material.
Today, everybody wants to have their own music projects and manage everything alone with a computer. I already said in countless threads that this individualistic conception endangers the richness of our culture.

Black metal is pagan. Death metal is atheistic. Satanism is not a religion. Rejecting religion is not a religion. But that's another topic.




No, I don't mean that. Your job can be complementary with your artistic projects. The problem comes when your job antagonizes the values of your art. My artistic/cultural values are clearly antagonistic with the values of the current employment market. I cannot promote a certain way of life through my music and promote the opposites values through my job.

uhhh I write black metal as well. Not just death metal. and it's practice not practise. jesus christ.

everything you've said.. you have learned nothing.

Just reading through these posts, KFD...I think you should just give up music then and not worry about it. I manage my work life and personal life just fine. Personal life including music. I spend as much time as I can on it, but I also take a break and do other things as well. It's persistence that keeps you on track. If you stray and stop entirely for a while you set yourself back. Now don't tell me that work can do the same thing. Without a job I wouldn't have been able to purchase my new Steinberg CI1 USB Interface. And without that, I cannot record. I don't know anyone who has a 4 track or 8 track, or any recording equipment whatsoever. Therefore, in order to pursue my dreams of making music I have to finance it with a job. Oh, and I work shift work. Alternating from days to nights, and it still does not effect my playing or the time I put into it. It's a physically demanding job that rewards me with income, whereas my music is also a job to me that rewards me with great pride and drive to keep on going. I think your whole argument is invalid. Like I said at the top, just give up if you think it's so hard bud. Or get off the forum and go play! Quite a simple logic.

I also have a Ovation T257 Acoustic, 1980 era Fender Mexistrat that sounds just as good as I need it to, and a Pearl EXR series 5 piece drum set with 5 Zildjian cymbals and 2 Sabian ones. Two SM57 mics and a Marshall MG100. It's all I need, but without an income, I would have none of these gifts.

I have a cassette 4-track, a digital 24-track (both Tascam) and a computer equipped with a recording software.

You missed the point, read my posts again. More carefully.

Well what? You're saying that someone who has a job can't come up with music artistically because they don't have the time, distractions, lack of creativity due to having a job itself?

If you don't have the energy or ability to do 2 things at once(be it you or these friends of yours) then you are simply less capable and driven than others. So much for the spiritual power of black metal (HAHA). Very little else needs to be said.

I do understand that a day at work is tiring. However, I utterly reject your retarded notion that it renders you unable to be musically productive for the rest of your time. Back in January when I finished work at a 9-6 job I took a 45 minute long commute to go and record guitar and bass tracks, and they didn't suffer at all because of work. Was I tired? Of course. But did I get my shit together and do what had to be done? Of course. Just like in Porman's case, anything is possible if you're not a useless bum.

Also, calling something spiritual doesn't make it harder to play or write. It's a sad attempt at making your material sound like more than what it is.

@Veld, that's exactly what he's saying because he can't seem to do more than one thing with his life. I imagine reading the papers while eating breakfast is a herculean feat to him.

EDIT: SLK, you write black metal too but it's obviously not as spiritual as KFD's. Playing songs in time, and not punching in drums, how dare you!

Haha, how is he even typing in this topic right now? He's probably taking a nap soon.

Gotta be well rested to create visionary art.

Quite ironic from a guy who isn't even able to read and understand my posts properly (in depth, not about stupid trivial questions like "are you having dinner or jerking on Youporn while you're posting").

Such an intellectual effort is apparently above your abilities.

Pearls to the swine...

My only assumption now is that his english is so poor.. that's why he can't seem to grasp the very basic arguments spelled out infront of him in page after page... thread after thread throughout his time on this board. Cause any one who is rational or sane would be fucking embarassed at how idiotic they sound and have presented every single line of their 'argument' and would go back to "practise"

KFD, my most charitable interpretation of your posts so far comes to this: (1) You endorse a certain ideological approach to art, and you think it would be either hypocritical or practically bad (or both) to do a job that is not approved of by that ideology, at least in conjunction with working as an artist; (2) The point about wanting to maximize time and energy...

Again, trying to be as charitable as possible, I think you're just extrapolating too much from your personal case. Not everyone shares your ideological views. Some don't endorse any kind of ideology, at least not explicitly. Of course we can debate whether we all ought to endorse your ideology, but putting that aside, your arguments don't go through.

Oh, and I think you are approaching black metal and death metal too narrowly. As with most people, I distinguish these genres in terms of sonic qualities, not in terms of ideological background. If something sounds JUST LIKE black metal and it is made by people intending to make black metal, it is probably black metal, independent of the ideology behind it.

The conflict is not a conflict between employment and art, the conflict here is between your values, and what you are capable of and willing to do. A person's values may preclude employment and/or the creation of art, and they include their pursuit of both. A decision based on values should be the same regardless of whether or not one creates art, because the sacrifice of values for either is a sacrifice of values. The necessity of this sacrifice for employment may even drive the passion for art - the art you speak of is created in opposition to common values, and in many other ways the art is responding the ambivalence of these values.

I'm still unclear on whether the values you speak of are being a Nazi wannabe or not being on time, but the latter really shows at the beginning of this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD8QfyNYKY8

Yes yes, Zodi said basically what I said, but with a funny joke included.

But man, now I feel bad. The more of KFD's music I listen to, the less sympathetic I am able to be. Those vocals, yick. Sorry, KFD. Good luck with things though.

Music making is a conscious effort. You can't just sit down and expect to be good at it. When I worked ranches, I was usually out of the house by 6 am and back home by 6 pm. But I still had the time and creative energy after even the longest days of strenuous and continuous work to make many of the songs I have stored on my computer pending release.

Granted, the majority of the time was spent cruising a tractor cutting coastal, but during the late winter and spring seasons we were literally shoveling trailer loads of muddy and dirty grass roots into a sprig trailer with about the cubic feet of a small bathroom, then shoveling it back out of the trailer and into the planter, which we would then feed into the conveyor thingamabob so the planter can separate and shove into the ground. It was grueling hard work during those months, but even with my arms cramped and my back sore, I still picked up my guitar and put a lot of effort into just spilling my heart into my fretboard and then into a song. And I'm sure some other musicians here that are better (or worse) than me also have equally exhausting tasks or grueling labor at their jobs (which is what you need to start a career, as you put it) that leaves them drained at the end of the day.

So I'm not gonna rip into you anymore than you already have been (cause your asshole is probably gaping wider that a sinkhole by now), but this had to be stated in hopes of you actually taking the time to read this shit and soak it in for a while.

I have mixed opinions on this subject. Having a creative "job" like sound engineer, office work or whatever probably wouldn't get in your way from creating music. Hard labor is another matter : some can handle keeping some juice for music, some don't. Also, worth mentioning is how your subconscious mind can be creative while you're doing something else. I know if I do some boring, repetitive task, my brain is often riffing like hell and I come up with ideas when I get back home, so there's that.

All of this reminds me the Anvil documentary movie, which is very accurate in depicting both the awesome and pathetic sides of a metal musician's life.

Oh yes, the drums aren't tight. They're frankly not really tighter on the faster version.

I'm no better than bands from the 80's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmxrQSwF34o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34ATdpFi95s

But I'm still better than guys who wouldn't be able to cover my song (playing all the instruments, no programmed drums) at the same tempo.

There is soulless black metal, just like there is soulless rock, soulless punk, soulless reggae... Art can be very plastic and formal.

There are also soulless humans.

Everyone is different about this. I just wanted to tell my story, and hopefully express the point that musicianship is a task you have to MAKE time for, and that it's not just gonna strike you like a lightning bolt.

Whoa. This thread went on longer than I thought.

A couple points, and hopefully I can address some thoughts I'm hearing and hopefully take some of it to heart.

I didn't think I was going to be famous. My plan wasn't to be playing arenas, selling out shows and having my music chart or something like that.

I cringe at my old music because that was all that was positive about what I had done. I mean, if I was still playing with people, playing shows, I can at least look forward to the grind and moving forward. But here I am with no band, no fellow musicians, and all I've got to look positively on is the C- music was all I had to show for it. Fuck, I'm not even friends with former band mates anymore. After my last band ended, I didn't make enough connections to keep the ball rolling. And after nearly a 6-7 months with no-one to play with, no bands, no movement I just stopped playing. If I don't have other musicians, other projects to do "homework" for, what's the point? At least, that was my logic.

So I think my problem is that I got so used to have a loose "network" of like minded individual that could help embolden me. And when I had to rely solely on myself to write, I kind of just caved. Too easily and quickly, in hindsight. On top of my retail job cutting hours, and having to move back home, etc. I feel like I lost some independence and drive as a result. I don't know, it's so easy when there are other people to bounce ideas off of because I can get immediate feedback and we can just riff/jam it out.

Blah, I feel like I'm rambling/whining. The sense I'm getting from everyone on the thread is to try other avenues of approaching music. I did get a free Pro Tools package from a friend of mine after a long discussion on this subject. I think I'll buy an instrument mic with my coming paycheck and see if I can get good learning Pro Tools for a time and see if I can approach music that way. I'll be forced to record SOMETHING, ANYTHING if I want to learn how to record right?

And you're right, I need to be more independent on write on my own, even if I think it sounds like shit or their isn't a purpose. Having tenacity, and like Arkhane says, MAKING time.

I'm feeling a lot better about this situation, especially after going through training these past couple weeks. I'll have weekends, be getting paid an actual working/living wage, and more spending cash. I'll be moving out again this summer, and I'll have an easier finding people to play with too.

Thanks so much for being kind on this thread, especially with all the whining and apparent self-doubt. I always have the fear people on these forums are going to tear me a new one, but I'm always proved wrong, hahaha

We aren't always assholes. Just most of the time. Hope it all works out for you.

Cheers dude. Most of the vitriol in this thread was directed towards some other silly anyway. There's no need to immediately excel in anything, just write some songs that you personally dig. Lots of help available on this board regarding any topic, just ask away.

Yea just don't come off like an idiotic fuckstick like KFD and you'll be fine.

No, he's right. It's the gods. If you put your drumsticks in a blender and pray over the screaming death of the motor, salvage some of the chum, make a small ball of wood chips with shoe polish, it will look like hashish. Make a pipe out of rolled up aluminum foil you used to cook the morning's bacon, put in the sacred dollop and smoke it with a zippo. It will deliver you to the spiritual state necessary to both keep a job and make music. I think. At least that's what the guy sleeping in the subway bathroom told me.