Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Search   * Register   * Login 



Reply to topic  
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
uglijimus
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:56 am
Posts: 82
Location: U.S.A., Michigan
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:52 pm 
 

I was listening to Frolic through the park the other day. While the sound is pretty thin, when they speed up and rip into some power chords against some rapid fire palm muted open Es, those power chords sound really raw and organic. I was very impressed and started to think about what makes the guitars sound so good during this time period in thrash.

i'm wondering what amps were used during the recording sessions of
Death Angel's first 3 albums
Vio-lence's first 2
Exodus' first 4
Flotsam and Jetsam's first 3
Overkill's Years of Decay
Forced Entry's as above so below
Forbidden's first 2 albums
Razor's Violence Restitution

or maybe it wasn't just the amps. maybe some bands were using a pedal in conjunction with an amp?
I thought I heard that most bands were using JCM 800 during this time but couldn't find any info on it.


I especially want to know Vio-lence's Oppressing the Masses because I love that sound and Flotsam and Jetsam's because it sounds so different from the rest of the thrash band sound out there.

Top
 Profile  
CF_Mono
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:21 pm
Posts: 1404
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:26 pm 
 

I have always secretly wished every band or album page on the archives had a "gear" tab that tells you what tools and instruments were used to create the music in subject.
_________________
Doom or be doomed...
My current band. Wretched doom trio from NY.

Top
 Profile  
uglijimus
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:56 am
Posts: 82
Location: U.S.A., Michigan
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:39 pm 
 

I know. I think I remember hearing Gary Holt saying that he had a modified marshall at some time, but I don't know what album he used it on or the model of the amp.

Top
 Profile  
Dragunov
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:34 pm
Posts: 2336
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:51 pm 
 

Dave Carlo said in a recent interview that he used some sort of Roland amp (Cube?) for a majority of Razor's recordings. As for the other band's I'd put my money on most of them using some sort of Marshall, but I don't know for sure.
_________________
HamburgerBoy wrote:
Chugging DURDURDUR is more metal than airy lelelelelelelelleele.

Top
 Profile  
thrashinbatman
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 364
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:53 pm 
 

You were correct mostly, the great majority of them started with Marshalls, typically the JCM 800. Over time a lot of them moved over to other brands like Mesa and ENGL.

Top
 Profile  
uglijimus
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:56 am
Posts: 82
Location: U.S.A., Michigan
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:55 pm 
 

interesting since I think the sound in Violence Restitution and Shotgun Justice sound completely different. Maybe he used a different amp for that.

I found that interview:

I could tell you, from my standpoint, my guitar setup, I used the same guitars in the studio that I’ve used since the beginning. I have two REAH-PRO, two Urchin Guitars. I know that they are not gold plated Fender Stratocasters or fancy-pants Gibson Les Pauls, and I could care less. These guitars were about a 1000$ each when I bought them. I upgraded them to EMG pickups and I put Keiler Tremolo systems on them, I liked the feel of them, I liked the look of them, and they suit my purpose.

For t he first three albums of Razor I was using Roland Amplifiers, and I switched to Roland Cube Amplifiers in the studio, and I used Roland Cube Heads for the live performances. In 1987, I switched to Mosfet Marshalls, which are solid state Marshalls, not tube Marshalls. I recorded every album with them afterwards.

Top
 Profile  
Dragunov
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:34 pm
Posts: 2336
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:21 pm 
 

Ah, that's right, the early stuff was with the Rolands, haha. Good find! On a side note, I've been wanting one of those set-neck Aria Urchins for a while, but boy are those things rare.
_________________
HamburgerBoy wrote:
Chugging DURDURDUR is more metal than airy lelelelelelelelleele.

Top
 Profile  
uglijimus
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:56 am
Posts: 82
Location: U.S.A., Michigan
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:04 pm 
 

thrashinbatman wrote:
You were correct mostly, the great majority of them started with Marshalls, typically the JCM 800. Over time a lot of them moved over to other brands like Mesa and ENGL.



Yeah, but I'm wondering what made them sound so different from each other. All of the bay area had that crunch, but they all sounded different.

and back in the day I tried out a jcm 800 and certainly didn't sound anything like what I was hearing on those albums...

Top
 Profile  
thrashinbatman
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 364
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:10 pm 
 

Well, for one, they all had Tube Screamers in front, I think. Just so you know. A lot of the individual tone may come from EQing and the micing techniques used by each studios. A mic in different places can net you a very different tone, even with the same settings on the same amp.

Top
 Profile  
Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4840
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:43 am 
 

CF_Mono wrote:
I have always secretly wished every band or album page on the archives had a "gear" tab that tells you what tools and instruments were used to create the music in subject.


I'd love it too, if it were feasible to get extensive and correct information. The problem here is that it's so hard to confirm, and multiple people are involved in recordings, one whose job is to play, and one or more who deal with a different setup every week/month and don't exactly document each one extensively like we'd love to see. These wizards don't always like to open their spell books for us either.

Live rigs are easier to pin down, as it's generally not too hard to snap a pic of the amps/pedalboards of bands, even if you can't see how it's EQ'd, if the amps/guitars are modded, or what tubes are in the amps. Studios, especially the fancier ones, are really complicated. It's not uncommon for there to be a few amps/cabs being blended, multiple mics, and all sorts of varying factors. Often, artists/producers don't even recall or keep track of it. One example I like to use is that years ago, I used a very similar guitar/amp to an artist I admired, and it sounded very similar when I played along. When I recorded, it wasn't the same. I talked to the guitarist and producer and a completely different type of guitar was used on the recording, quad-tracked, and half a dozen amps were blended.

To complicate things, it's not uncommon to have multi-tracked guitars with differing setups. Sometimes a guitarist will be handed another guitar to use. Producers/engineers are the ones who set up the amps/cabs/mics and shape the sound that way, because in bigger productions, the guitarist isn't the one focused on that. At a basic level, guitar/amp shape the sound. At the recording level of perfection, the guitarists playing is a huge factor, and it is shaped by the build of that specific guitar, the pickups, the amp(s), the tubes in the amp(s), any mods to the amp(s), any pedals/effects, the settings of every piece of equipment in the chain, the cabinet(s), the speakers in the cabinet, the position of the microphones on the speakers, the discretion of the engineers in choosing the mics and positioning them on the speakers, the equipment used for mixing, the settings used for mixing, and the massive indeterminable factor in replication, the sound of everything else in the mix that each piece is shaped around. I only recently learned how much of a difference there is between simply putting a mic at a certain position in front of a speaker, and carefully listening out the speakers with the given settings, positioning the microphones with regard to the speakers, and using that to shape the tone. Before I had witnessed and tried it, I wouldn't believe that it was one of those huge degrees of perfection in shaping a sound, and I am certainly far from mastering it, but it's one of those things that makes it really, really hard to both handle engineering and playing at the same time without becoming distracted to the point of no return.

That being said, the variations within different JCM800 models, the tubes, modifications, and the speaker cabinets were all factors, but with a more limited range of tools back then, a lot of the unique tricks of engineers to shape the sounds were the really defining aspects of classic recordings.

Top
 Profile  
somefella
Veteran

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 2531
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:43 am 
 

Zodi is right, many other factors besides basic equipment are responsible for the overall album tone. But one thing I notice that most Bay Area thrash releases have in common is that most don't have huge or perfect guitar tones, as the OP has observed. The grittiness and aggression comes from the solid riffing style that many of these bands boasted.

According to my vocalist who also produces our stuff and many other metal albums and has a degree in audio engineering, in his experience the amp sound(meaning the brand, and how you tweak the EQ) and the guitarist's playing are the 2 biggest factors in the sound. Everything else sorta shapes it here and there but it'll be based around the foundation that is the amp's voicing and your playing. Razor's guitarist, Dave Carlo if I'm not mistaken, is a fucking excellent guitarist. He could take a bayonet and play riffs on it and they would sound better than your average Warbringer or Evile album.
_________________
http://hpgd.bandcamp.com/album/the-grea ... of-nothing
OSHIEGO (SGP), death/thrash.

Top
 Profile  
Riffs
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 am
Posts: 880
Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:32 pm 
 

For many of these bands, a Marshall and some pedals were the basic ingredients

But possibly the ultimate amp for the style was the Mesa Boogie Mark III. You can come up with really tight thrash tones that sound classic and without the need for anything else but a good guitar.
_________________
mjollnir wrote:
Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

Top
 Profile  
uglijimus
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:56 am
Posts: 82
Location: U.S.A., Michigan
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:50 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:
For many of these bands, a Marshall and some pedals were the basic ingredients



I would love to hear what some of those pedals were. I think I heard Metallica used some kind of pedal on ride the lightning??

If anyone is interested, Robb Flynn said that during the recording of Oppressing the Masses they continually ABed the sound in the studio with SOD' speak english or die as they were trying to get that sound.

Top
 Profile  
aloof
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:18 pm
Posts: 317
Location: In the graveyard, doing handstands
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:36 am 
 

Marshalls, slashed with a knife...

Image
_________________
And every demon wants his pound of flesh, but I like to keep some things to myself.

Top
 Profile  
Riffs
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 am
Posts: 880
Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:27 am 
 

uglijimus wrote:
Riffs wrote:
For many of these bands, a Marshall and some pedals were the basic ingredients



I would love to hear what some of those pedals were. I think I heard Metallica used some kind of pedal on ride the lightning??


You'll find plenty of reports/guesses on that but the key to any thrash tone, RtL included, is massive gain on a tube amp + EQ calibration. The Boogies have a great EQ built in. If you go for a JCM 800, you might add a good overdrive/tube screamer but then you invest in a quality EQ and you tweak it carefully to satisfaction.
_________________
mjollnir wrote:
Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

Top
 Profile  
p0wnn00b
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:40 pm
Posts: 911
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:27 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:
You'll find plenty of reports/guesses on that but the key to any thrash tone, RtL included, is massive gain on a tube amp + EQ calibration. The Boogies have a great EQ built in. If you go for a JCM 800, you might add a good overdrive/tube screamer but then you invest in a quality EQ and you tweak it carefully to satisfaction.


I believe Hetfield said he and Kirk used Tube Screamers, and it was the last time he used a distortion pedal to record an album because he hated having a distortion pedal on top of the amp's natural gain setting.

Top
 Profile  
Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4840
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:52 pm 
 

This website has extensive documentation of Metallica's gear on each release, it's great.
http://www.encycmet.com/equipment/equipm.shtml

Top
 Profile  
somefella
Veteran

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 2531
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:16 pm 
 

A little ironic that Metallica's most lauded album ever was recorded with the guitar that would become Mustaine's signature huh.
_________________
http://hpgd.bandcamp.com/album/the-grea ... of-nothing
OSHIEGO (SGP), death/thrash.

Top
 Profile  
balbulus
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:01 pm
Posts: 953
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:57 am 
 

This is only vaguely related to the topic, but I remember reading in one of the early 90s guitar magazines a joint interview with Chuck Schuldiner, Trey Azagthoth and (I think) one of Obituary's guitarists, and they were laughing at the range of "Thrash Metal" pedals that had started to appear. They all used basic Boss or Rat distortion pedals.
_________________
‎"Suddenly, life has new meaning..."

Top
 Profile  
Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
Posts: 6548
Location: Fortress Northallerton, North Yorkshire
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:18 am 
 

thrashinbatman wrote:
You were correct mostly, the great majority of them started with Marshalls, typically the JCM 800. Over time a lot of them moved over to other brands like Mesa and ENGL.


You'll notice that when a band starts using ENGLs their tone gets worse. I'm not saying that there's any correlation, mind you.
_________________
'Heavy metal top of the class, stuff the media up your arse!' - Den Dennis.

Let's Trade in the Darkness of Hell! - updated for 2014!

Top
 Profile  
thrashinbatman
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 364
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:38 pm 
 

ANationalAcrobat wrote:
thrashinbatman wrote:
You were correct mostly, the great majority of them started with Marshalls, typically the JCM 800. Over time a lot of them moved over to other brands like Mesa and ENGL.


You'll notice that when a band starts using ENGLs their tone gets worse. I'm not saying that there's any correlation, mind you.

I've noticed the opposite trend, actually, but I'm a big ENGL fan (I mean, I own one). Of course, tone is very subjective, and if it ain't your thing it ain't your thing.

Top
 Profile  
somefella
Veteran

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 2531
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:22 am 
 

balbulus wrote:
This is only vaguely related to the topic, but I remember reading in one of the early 90s guitar magazines a joint interview with Chuck Schuldiner, Trey Azagthoth and (I think) one of Obituary's guitarists, and they were laughing at the range of "Thrash Metal" pedals that had started to appear. They all used basic Boss or Rat distortion pedals.


Oh yeah, this is so goddamned stupid. Like that moronic "black metal pedal", limited to 66 pieces worldwide of course.
_________________
http://hpgd.bandcamp.com/album/the-grea ... of-nothing
OSHIEGO (SGP), death/thrash.

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BloodSacrificeShaman, Google [Bot], SwampSlimer and 21 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group