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FasterDisaster
So Fast, You'll Crash

Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:08 pm
Posts: 6338
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:19 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
It's somewhat strange having been born in 1993 and now there are people much younger than I am beginning to populate metal boards.

I was born in '87... I've been on the internet longer than you've been alive!
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LlamaTrainer
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:04 pm
Posts: 674
Location: Prince George, B.C.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:20 pm 
 

Ancient_Sorrow wrote:
One of the things which always gets me is how shit some of the people on here who are ostensibly 19-20-21 or-so are at acting their age. I came here when I was 17, and like to think I've never been quite as dense as some.

That's why I don't post that often, I know that the quality of my posts are pretty average most of the time.
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OzzyApu
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:11 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:30 pm 
 

I remember having to use these computers in elementary school from 1995-1998. Took probably three minutes to start up and be able to do anything. I'm only 23.
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henkkjelle
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:38 pm 
 

So here in the Netherlands we have a holiday called "sinterklaas" for people who are not familair with it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas#Zwarte_Piet

Sinterklaas is a old white guy who gives presents to the good children, and bags of coal to the naughty children. Ofcourse this is just the legend, and in reality all the children get presents. It's pretty much the dutch counterpart of Santa. Now, just as Santa, Sinterklaas has helpers. Only they are not elves. They are fully grown men/women sporting blackface.

Like this:
Spoiler: show
Image


They are the ones handing out candy, so all the kids love 'em. Now, because of the recent and continuing influx of immigrants, this holiday is now sometimes called racist by a enlarging group of people, colored and otherwise. Now, these "zwarte pieten" aren't being treated in a racist fasion, nor are they slaves of Sinterklaas, nor are they acting like a racist black stereotype. The only thing that seems to be wrong is them being black. And I don't see how painting your face black in itself is racist. Now I do realize that it can make people think of slavery and racism, and if a large percentage of people feel hurt by it why not change it?. I myself don't really feel strongly either way. I wouldn't care if they changed the holiday (zwarte piet would become multicolored dreamcoat piet) and it would stop the yearly controversies from every happening again.

Now, how do you guys look at this? I remember watching a video featuring americans reacting to pictures of zwarte piet and sinterklaas, and the reactions weren't that positive.
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Jackoroth
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:55 pm
Posts: 317
Location: Roxburgh Park
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:40 pm 
 

I'm listening to Edge Of Sanity's Until Eternity Ends and I keep replaying their cover of The Police's Invisible Sun, can't seem to get past the song it's that good.
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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
Posts: 10162
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:49 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
So here in the Netherlands we have a holiday called "sinterklaas" for people who are not familair with it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas#Zwarte_Piet

Sinterklaas is a old white guy who gives presents to the good children, and bags of coal to the naughty children. Ofcourse this is just the legend, and in reality all the children get presents. It's pretty much the dutch counterpart of Santa. Now, just as Santa, Sinterklaas has helpers. Only they are not elves. They are fully grown men/women sporting blackface.

Like this:
Spoiler: show
Image


They are the ones handing out candy, so all the kids love 'em. Now, because of the recent and continuing influx of immigrants, this holiday is now sometimes called racist by a enlarging group of people, colored and otherwise. Now, these "zwarte pieten" aren't being treated in a racist fasion, nor are they slaves of Sinterklaas, nor are they acting like a racist black stereotype. The only thing that seems to be wrong is them being black. And I don't see how painting your face black in itself is racist. Now I do realize that it can make people think of slavery and racism, and if a large percentage of people feel hurt by it why not change it?. I myself don't really feel strongly either way. I wouldn't care if they changed the holiday (zwarte piet would become multicolored dreamcoat piet) and it would stop the yearly controversies from every happening again.

Now, how do you guys look at this? I remember watching a video featuring americans reacting to pictures of zwarte piet and sinterklaas, and the reactions weren't that positive.


My understanding of this stuff is a little sketchy for reasons that will be clear to a few users here, but I understand that it's only really a problem in some depictions where the facial features are distorted in a way that looks comical or caricature-ish, such as in some of the old MGM musicals of the 1940s.
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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:55 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
Now, how do you guys look at this? I remember watching a video featuring americans reacting to pictures of zwarte piet and sinterklaas, and the reactions weren't that positive.

Wow, yeah, that's super racist. I mean it might be done with good intentions, but it's clearly imitating a very negative caricature of black people that existed in Europe as well as the US. Remember Tintin in the Congo?

Spoiler: show
Image
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inhumanist
Metal freak

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Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:04 pm 
 

Blackface is as inherently racist as wearing a red wig is inherently insulting to gingers.
That said there is a rich history of it being used in a racist fashion and it still is sometimes used thus, therefore it makes people uncomfortable.
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Erosion of Humanity
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
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Location: Schaumburg, Il
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:06 pm 
 

Holy damn failsafeman I don't even know what that was but yeah that's super bad...

Edit: about henks post, while it does appear uber racist on the surface it seems that if you go by either of the two 'original' or I guess the first two explanations listed by Wikipedia then it isn't so much that as it is Nordic legend. But if you go by latter day explanations then yeah super duper racist.
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Last edited by Erosion of Humanity on Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
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Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:10 pm 
 

Right, that's pretty much the crux of it.

Additionally, Abom, there's also the fact that the pigments used don't really ever resemble the skin color of an actual black person, plus subtle differences in facial structure between people of European descent and people of African descent means that it's basically impossible for a white person to put on blackface and convincingly appear to be a black person; in pretty much all cases it becomes a caricature.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:12 pm 
 

Guys... blackface is racist. It's so racist that it fell into disuse in the mid-20th century. That's the 1950's, and even by the standards of that time they felt it was too racist to keep using in the media. This should give you a good fucking idea at how racist it is. :P

inhumanist wrote:
Blackface is as inherently racist as wearing a red wig is inherently insulting to gingers.

.......... :durr:
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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:14 pm 
 

You're all joking and this is just a setup for someone to ask xThe_Wizard if he's wearing blackface for Halloween and calling himself xThe_Black_Wizard, right?

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henkkjelle
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 3081
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:24 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
henkkjelle wrote:
Now, how do you guys look at this? I remember watching a video featuring americans reacting to pictures of zwarte piet and sinterklaas, and the reactions weren't that positive.

Wow, yeah, that's super racist. I mean it might be done with good intentions, but it's clearly imitating a very negative caricature of black people that existed in Europe as well as the US. Remember Tintin in the Congo?

Spoiler: show
Image


Only Tintin was being depicted as being dumb/simple. These zwarte pieten aren't. But yeah, I guess if I really had to take a postition it would be this. Although it would be a little bit more downtuned. The simple fact that black face is automatically linked to negative caricatures and racism should be enough to change it. Even if the way the black face is used isn't racist.
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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:26 pm 
 

I should also point out that it's not "just" blackface. It's blackface combined with other things that deliberately mimic a racist caricature - bright red lips, big gold earrings, afros - rather than an actual black person.

I realize that in Tintin it was deliberately derogatory, but that's the thing, these caricatures were used that way for so long that it's become baked-in. "Nigger" just used to mean "black person", but thanks to its long association with racism, it became an inherently racist term that's no longer OK to use. Same with blackface. You can't just deny the historical association of symbols.
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henkkjelle
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:51 pm 
 

Yep, I agree. You can't deny the historical association of symbols. And that's the problem. Sinterklaas has been a intricate part of dutch tradition for a very long time, so obviously changing it will be greeted with a lot of resistance. The reactions go from "it's just a tradition, it's not racist" to "'GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT". there simply aren't enough people who really think about it, how blackface/red lips will, in every single situation and setting, be associated with racism by a big portion of the world population. Even if the intention is far from racist. Or they simply don't care about it, that's another possibility. I'm afraid that a big portion of the dutch population lives in a bubble when it comes to this issue.
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AcidWorm
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Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:37 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:53 pm 
 

For those of you who think blackface is not racist then read this.
http://kmschultz.hubpages.com/hub/Why-i ... -incorrect

"The main cause behind these incidents and the controversy they sparked is ignorance. Those who put on the blackface are ignorant of the racial discord and stereotypes that go along with it. To some extent, the accusers are ignorant of the motive of those who don blackface. In some cases, a malicious intent is obvious, other times; people want to jump to conclusions too quickly, assuming the intent was to hurt. "

That about sums it up. Due to political correctness because blackface was once associated with racism then it has become inappropriate to use it now. It is most likley not racially motivated for people to dress up in it as Halloween and most likely they are just ignorant but that isn't something much better and they should have been more sensitive. Any educated person in America should be aware of the racist connotations as it is a big part of American history.
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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
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Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:57 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Guys... blackface is racist. It's so racist that it fell into disuse in the mid-20th century. That's the 1950's, and even by the standards of that time they felt it was too racist to keep using in the media. This should give you a good fucking idea at how racist it is. :P

inhumanist wrote:
Blackface is as inherently racist as wearing a red wig is inherently insulting to gingers.

.......... :durr:

So then what are the inherent racist implications of painting your face black? There may not be any obvious situations where there is any good reason to do it, except when you want to ridicule or caricaturize black people (which is why people stopped doing it eventually), but how is that an inherent aspect of it?
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?


Last edited by inhumanist on Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AcidWorm
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Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:37 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:58 pm 
 

Inhumanist you should read the article in the link I provided.
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tanabata wrote:
I heard one of the moderators blacklisted them because of his subjective opinion. Well If that is the case, you sir have shit taste and you ain't my nigga!

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MutantClannfear
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
Posts: 2160
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:01 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
I should also point out that it's not "just" blackface. It's blackface combined with other things that deliberately mimic a racist caricature - bright red lips, big gold earrings, afros - rather than an actual black person.

Pretty much this. I think the people defending blackface here are confusing "blackface" with "painting your face black".
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inhumanist
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Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:25 pm 
 

I, for one, am talking about imitating highly pigmented skin by means of face painting. If that's not what blackface means I'm sorry. English is not my first language.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
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henkkjelle
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 3081
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:32 pm 
 

If you take out all historical context then ofcourse blackface wouldn't be racist. It would just be a black face. This however isn't the situation, and I don't think it will ever be.
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Ball Cupper
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:51 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:39 pm 
 

Blackface was generally done as an exaggeration and caricature of other races, which is a pretty dodgy thing. Nowadays whether that's the intentional message or not, it's still the impression that it gives because of its history. You've got to think what message does blackface put across nowadays, and it's still a bad one. Someone could have the best intentions in the world, if they go out in blackface they already know the implications of it. Ya gotta be pretty dumb to think it's not sending out a bad message.

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waiguoren
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:23 am
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Location: Make a kiss to her
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:45 pm 
 

I'm not going to bother with links here (as there would be too many), but do a quick search for 'korea black face' and see what pops up - they're constantly doing it over there, on TV, in music vids, ads etc, and then claiming 'ignorance', or blaming Japan for god-only-knows what again.
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waiguoren
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:23 am
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Location: Make a kiss to her
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:46 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
It's somewhat strange having been born in 1993 and now there are people much younger than I am beginning to populate metal boards.


It's even stranger having been born in 1978 and having to read your know-it-all drivel on here all the damn time but don't worry buddy, you'll get used to it.
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I am a Chinese lady with a pair of big water eyes under the long eyelashes.I don't know how beautiful i am , but people usually say that I needn't do face-painting.

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henkkjelle
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 3081
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:51 pm 
 

waiguoren wrote:
I'm not going to bother with links here (as there would be too many), but do a quick search for 'korea black face' and see what pops up - they're constantly doing it over there, on TV, in music vids, ads etc, and then claiming 'ignorance', or blaming Japan for god-only-knows what again.


That reminds me of Thailand and it's Hitler fashion.

It’s not that I like Hitler. But he looks funny and the shirts are very popular with young people.”
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waiguoren
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Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:23 am
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Location: Make a kiss to her
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:58 pm 
 

Ah yeah, I remember that Thailand Hitler thing. Back to Korea, there used to be a damn chain of Hitler bars there, and a TV ad glorifying Hitler too (something about skin cream I think).

I'd dig up some links but I am on the last question of an assignment, so just popping in for a break from the madness. May all your Dutch dreams come true, dear~~
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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
Posts: 9546
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:10 pm 
 

waiguoren wrote:
Subrick wrote:
It's somewhat strange having been born in 1993 and now there are people much younger than I am beginning to populate metal boards.

It's even stranger having been born in 1978 and having to read your know-it-all drivel on here all the damn time but don't worry buddy, you'll get used to it.

:lol:
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Seriously, why ban me??????? That topic had nothing wrong with it! Theres something wrong with you i can tell you! You're immoral banning of my account! Anyways, i'm creating my own metal arcives.

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MutantClannfear
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:28 pm 
 

I got this error message today, I thought it was pretty funny considering the website I was on:

Image
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:32 pm 
 

And exactly what website were you on? o_O
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MutantClannfear
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:35 pm 
 

I know what you're thinking, it's not what it looks like. :lol: I was following links from a Google Image search and stumbled across it by accident, I don't associate with pro-life ideologies.
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Ball Cupper
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:51 pm
Posts: 107
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:06 pm 
 

Why would a pro-life group even need its own "tube" site? Surely the scope of the site is a tad small? What would users do, upload videos of pro-life cats or something? That's the stupidest idea I've ever heard.

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Wilytank
Not a Flying Toy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:08 pm 
 

Speaking of race and speaking of bullshit,

D3athCr0ak in this month's NSBM thread (now locked) wrote:
I don't have a problem with the remaining non whites living here until old age, so long as they do not breed anymore. If they breed there will be the penalty of deportation, this may sound mean or whatever but it's the most peaceful solution if we want to maintain true racial diversity.


My cousin is married to a half black woman, and I sense no threat to my race or anything. They're expecting a child next April too.
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iamntbatman
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Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
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Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:44 pm 
 

Ball Cupper wrote:
Why would a pro-life group even need its own "tube" site? Surely the scope of the site is a tad small? What would users do, upload videos of pro-life cats or something? That's the stupidest idea I've ever heard.


The same reason Conservapedia exists: to have some attempt at "user-generated content" websites that are free from the horrors of brainwashed liberal media lies.
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grauer_mausling
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:00 am
Posts: 1770
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:47 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
It's somewhat strange having been born in 1993 and now there are people much younger than I am beginning to populate metal boards.


Hah, at work I'm (mid-to-end-thirty) sitting together with eight boys & girls between 18-21. Now that is weird. Luckily I'm getting my
own office room in two weeks and will be free of all the stupid "oh we are acting so adult" :lol: stuff and "oh my god did you read that
on facebook" chattering...
However at least four of them (all girls strangely) are to some point into metal or other "hard music" (punk, alternative etc).

Really odd what "just" 10-15 years of age difference can make :wink:

edit: funny sidenote:
just today I was wearing an old Borknagar hoodie roughly 15 years old and played "decipher the logo" with some of my co-workers. When I revealed
the name and the age of the hoodie some started laughing and saying "oh man, I wasn't even in school when you bought that"
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Ball Cupper
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:51 pm
Posts: 107
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:32 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
Ball Cupper wrote:
Why would a pro-life group even need its own "tube" site? Surely the scope of the site is a tad small? What would users do, upload videos of pro-life cats or something? That's the stupidest idea I've ever heard.


The same reason Conservapedia exists: to have some attempt at "user-generated content" websites that are free from the horrors of brainwashed liberal media lies.


Yeah. I'd have thought there'd be some kind of Conservative Tube, but considering how often they eat their own I don't think it'd last long.

Edit: on an unrelated note, I've just been re-discovering how freakin awesome Saint Vitus are. I mean, really, freakin awesome. My God, I love all of their albums. I don't think you understand how much they rock.

Bizarrely, I see a lot of similarities between them and Beherit (when they get slower), which I never really thought about before. Explains why I also like Beherit so much!

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Under_Starmere
Abhorrent Fish-Man

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
Posts: 4197
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:34 pm 
 

It's just odd to me that there was a time when this sort of thing wasn't seen as awkward and borderline creepy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIaj7FNHnjQ

Anyway.
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somefella
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 2490
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:22 am 
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bItVP-zxzmE

This is an acapella cover. The original is one of my favourite non-metal bands ever, a Hong Kong band from the 80s and this Italian(?) acapella group has done a great cover, pronounces the Cantonese words impeccably, which is more than I can say for myself despite the fact that my mom is Cantonese.
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6356
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:52 am 
 

When I started learning programming, I was somewhat surprised by the amount of advice that guides provided regarding practices, tools and techniques that would save the programmer from having to do tedious, repetitive tasks. Being a twit that is usually content at hacking away at something fairly menial and tedious provided that it had some vague purpose concerning the task at hand, I assumed that it had something to do with a common mindset among programmers; that they are simply enthusiastic about finding new ways to do things and do not accept conventional methods without question. To me, it seemed that having to spend time learning new ways of doing things instead of the tried and true methods would often end up being counterproductive in terms of achieving goals in minimal time, with minimal resources.

I've written some JDOM and JAXB exercises for school, involving endless amounts of I/O handling, and I finally understand that aversion of tedium, even if finding new ways does not save time. At the moment I feel more inclined to write a library for simpler console I/O than to do these exercises. Print this, assign input to variable. Print that, assign input to variable. Repeat until you pass out. When done, instantiate objects with those variables. Repeat infinitely.

An even more tedious and frustrating task is optimising the program I/O to a system that checks the programs. Every single character must be in the right place, including whitespace. Even the smallest deviation will cause the check to fail.
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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:36 am
Posts: 1966
Location: Panopticon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:47 am 
 

^ Talking of a mountain of skulls..

numbering around 50 million before the European settlers arrived. Yet within a few decades, their number would be reduced to a mere 2,000

Spoiler: show
A man stands on top of a tremendous pile of buffalo skulls that will be ground into fertilizer[img]
http://static.environmentalgraffiti.com ... 00x469.jpg[/img]
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themicrulah
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:00 am
Posts: 1167
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:02 am 
 

I have a cold :(
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