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Rmind
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:09 pm
Posts: 43
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:12 pm 
 

Hi there, I'm the leader, and guitarist of black metal project. We record our songs semi-professional, but without a drummer, because there's nobody around, who can play. Is that lame, that we use drum machine? This is my first topic. Cheers.
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themicrulah
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:00 am
Posts: 1167
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:55 pm 
 

I use a drum machine, but I don't play solely black metal. It's only lame if you think it is. Just try to make the drum track sound as much like a real drumkit as possible when mixing, my way of doing this is adding some reverb to it so it sounds more natural and organic. You have to work with what you've got!
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InThyKingdom
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:25 am
Posts: 154
Location: Bulgaria
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:13 pm 
 

^ +1
Limbonic Art used to play like that live and they r not the only band. I did as well with my main band and ppl used to accept our decision since it was hard to find descent drummer. Just do it ur way!
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 12003
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:24 pm 
 

It's not lame. But overall I'm less likely to check out a band that doesn't have a real drummer.
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Rmind
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:09 pm
Posts: 43
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:54 pm 
 

Thanks a lot for Your answers.

Is there anybody, who is into black metal style, and would like to cooperate, like making split or something? It's always better, when You want people to hear about You, when you cooperate...
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themicrulah
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:00 am
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:55 pm 
 

Try the Musicians Seeking Musicians forum! :)
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Rmind
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:09 pm
Posts: 43
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:57 pm 
 

I will. Thank You again :)
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infinitenexus
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 am
Posts: 1939
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:59 pm 
 

I use various drum machines for most of my metal projects, including a black metal one. I think it can help add to the "DIY" aspect of black metal, but in the end a real drummer will have a lot more to bring to the song than just adding a beat. There's positives and negatives about both, a real drummer and a drum machine.
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Zeating
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 1:05 am
Posts: 152
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:16 pm 
 

i'll play some drum tracks send it my way bruh
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somefella
Veteran

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 2585
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:30 am 
 

Why are you worrying if it's 'lame' or not? That sounds so preppy. Just do it if you want to, why wouldn't you?
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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:12 am 
 

Vondur is not lame!
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Rmind
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:09 pm
Posts: 43
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:09 am 
 

https://soundcloud.com/rottenmind-1/voi ... le/s-sX06H

It sounds like this now. Is that hearable, that I used drum machine?
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Ball Cupper
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:51 pm
Posts: 107
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:30 pm 
 

Rmind wrote:
https://soundcloud.com/rottenmind-1/void-dwells-within-me-sample/s-sX06H

It sounds like this now. Is that hearable, that I used drum machine?

In my very limited experience, that stuff sounds pretty good! At around 35 seconds in during the drum fill the snare sounds more mechanical, like the same sample being played at the same velocity. That aside, if you were going for a very clean drum sound then it sounds great to my ears! I like that you mixed up the kick drum pattern part way through, goes a good way to making programmed drums more interesting.

I used to use drum machines for my music. It definitely helped me work on my songwriting skills, not having to worry about learning a new instrument. That said, since I got myself an electronic kit I've found that the drums in my music have a bit more oomph to them, probably because of my terrible playing.

There aren't any real rules when making music, people have their own tastes on drum machines. If the way you make music lets you achieve what you want to sound like, then there's no real problem.

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InnesI
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 229
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:27 am 
 

Rmind wrote:
Hi there, I'm the leader, and guitarist of black metal project. We record our songs semi-professional, but without a drummer, because there's nobody around, who can play. Is that lame, that we use drum machine? This is my first topic. Cheers.


In general I don't like bands that use a drum machine since the music often becomes more sterile and much less personal. Drum machines do become better and better in regards to dynamics and sound but quite often you still clearly hear a lack of something.

That being said, some bands get away with it. My best example would be Anaal Nathrakh where it doesn't bother me at all.

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FLEAM
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:06 am
Posts: 13
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:20 am 
 

I think you can spend time on the drums and make them good. Ive made drum tracks out of audio samples lol it takes a long time but is quite realistic once you've adjusted volumes of hits etc. I do hate it when you can spot programming a mile off. But I also think that its a good opportunity to do something a little different or interesting, like Mysticum or Blut Aus Nord.

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somefella
Veteran

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 2585
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:40 am 
 

Basically, programmed drums are perfectly fine if you program them well. Look at the first Necrophagist album, or a bunch of Meshuggah albums. Same with Anaal Nathrakh as mentioned.

Shitty real drumming is still way worse than properly programmed drums. Basically, programmed or real, just do it nicely.
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Rmind
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:09 pm
Posts: 43
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:41 am 
 

I didn't know Anaal Nathrakh uses drum machine :O But I fuckin' love'em as well :)

Thank You again for all Your responses.
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Diamhea
Eats and Spits Corpses

Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:46 pm
Posts: 3600
Location: At the Heat of Winter
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:45 pm 
 

Yes Limbonic Art has played live to a drum machine and keyboard scratch track. No it wasn't as epic as it should have been.
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InThyKingdom
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:25 am
Posts: 154
Location: Bulgaria
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:42 pm 
 

And at same time u can not play everything as it sounds on the albums. Not to mention Septic Flesh or Emperor with their full keyboard backing tracks, beside the live musician...
I don't care if it sounds nice!
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Rmind
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:09 pm
Posts: 43
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:52 pm 
 

So I hope it sounds so :)
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sea
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:36 pm
Posts: 29
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:39 am 
 

You can get really good results with programmed drums provided that you use good drum samples and mix them well. If you use any sort of modern software like Superior Drummer, BFD2, etc. then an easy trick is to open your MIDI and use the built-in humanize function the MIDI editor has which will vary the timing and velocity slightly. Makes the "performance" a lot more realistic-sounding.

Examples of "so good you wouldn't believe it" drum programming: Anaal Nathrakh, most Vintersorg albums.

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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
Posts: 1064
Location: France
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:11 am 
 

Rmind wrote:
Hi there, I'm the leader, and guitarist of black metal project. We record our songs semi-professional, but without a drummer, because there's nobody around, who can play. Is that lame, that we use drum machine?


In 99% of the cases, yes.
Real drums provide variety and nuances that even best drum machines cannot afford. But of course, you need a competent drummer.

(Note that programming a drum machine also requires musical competence)

If you can't find any real drummer, than try to hire a session drummer over the internet; I can offer this service, for example.

I don't understand why most bands refuse to pay a session drummer, whereas they never question the option of paying studio fees, equipment, mixing, mastering or graphic design.

For obvious reasons, real drummers are pretty rare and hardly available worldwide.
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somefella
Veteran

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 2585
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:09 am 
 

KFD wrote:
Rmind wrote:
Hi there, I'm the leader, and guitarist of black metal project. We record our songs semi-professional, but without a drummer, because there's nobody around, who can play. Is that lame, that we use drum machine?


In 99% of the cases, yes.
Real drums provide variety and nuances that even best drum machines cannot afford. But of course, you need a competent drummer.

(Note that programming a drum machine also requires musical competence)

If you can't find any real drummer, than try to hire a session drummer over the internet; I can offer this service, for example.

I don't understand why most bands refuse to pay a session drummer, whereas they never question the option of paying studio fees, equipment, mixing, mastering or graphic design.

For obvious reasons, real drummers are pretty rare and hardly available worldwide.


1:Modern drums are made to sound so mechanized and robotic that the only reason you think it's not a program is because they say so.

2:There is nothing 'lame' or 'cool' about whether you use a program or not. If someone of Trym's calibre played drums for a shitty NSBM bedroom act, it would still be a shitty bedroom band that no one is going to care about.

3:You could say the same about guitars, that using line-in amp models instead of micing real amps automatically makes something 'cooler'. A good song is a good song, regardless of all this lame-cool highschool crap.

OP: Write some good songs and program away at those drums. This band uses a drum program as well, but there are some kickass songs, and Le Crepuscule Du Soir Productions and Infernal Kommando Records from France have seen fit to release it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cvij8fiBso

Great stuff, I wrote a review for it on the archives as well.
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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
Posts: 1064
Location: France
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:49 am 
 

No polemics needed. Acoustic drums are more interesting to hear than programmed drums and provide a richer listening experience. The sound of a real charleston cymbal will always be richer than a drum program sample. The quality of the drummer has nothing to do with the debate.

When it comes to black metal, even a lo-fi beginner band's rehearsal recording featuring acoustic drums is more interesting than technical electronic-assisted music.

Just compare the songs in early Absurd with each other (those played as a 3-piece band and those played as a drum-machine-assisted-one-man band).

We're talking about black metal, a genre which relies far more strongly on atmosphere and production than on technical performance. Lots of metalheads listen to black metal with death/extreme metal listening criteria... Which means they fail understanding the essence of black metal.

Edit: keep aware that when you play the drums, each single hit is unique. No human is able to produce exactly the same sound twice by hitting a drum or cymbal. That's why triggers exist: to homogenize the drum hits. That's why black metal songs featuring triggered drums are so poorer and more sterile than others. On the other hand, even the best drums programming software is not able to emulate a complete beginner who hits several times an element (cymbal or drum), for the above mentioned reason. Even if the program manages to artificially induce a small variation in each hit to mimic real drums, the difference remains. In short, no program can sound as natural as a physical acoustic drumkit.
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InThyKingdom
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:25 am
Posts: 154
Location: Bulgaria
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:00 am 
 

Spoiler: show
The true Norwegian musicians don't think that the acoustic drums > all!!!
Image
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Last edited by Zodijackyl on Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Shut up.

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Rmind
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:09 pm
Posts: 43
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:06 am 
 

@up good one! :D
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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
Posts: 1064
Location: France
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:21 am 
 

Anyone can feel free to use a drum machine or drum programming software if they disagree with me, it will probably be a lot easier and cheaper (both in terms of financial investment and physical efforts). The result will not sound the same but death metalheads might not care about the difference.

Just don't expect me to be a human drum machine without rewarding me in right proportion to the effort done.

I'm sick and tired of the spoiled kid I want more by giving less consumer attitude.
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themicrulah
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:00 am
Posts: 1167
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:30 am 
 

KFD are you aware that not everyone has the MEANS to have a real drummer or a drum set and also cannot IGNORE the burning flame within them that says "MAKE MUSIC!" and must simply use whatever tools are available or do you just not care about that? Either way, your attitude is obnoxious and unwarranted considering the scope of this discussion. Do you have the credibility to back up your opinions or do you simply throw your weight around on this board hoping to batter drum programmers with your words alone? Either way, you don't move me - and I don't give a fuck.
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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
Posts: 1064
Location: France
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:08 pm 
 

Oh yes, I'm totally aware of this, and if I didn't care I wouldn't waste my time giving advice to unknown users.

I'm just warning that if you want to record something decent and listenable, you'll have to spend as much for a decent-sounding drum machine or software as for a session drummer.

Be it in terms of physical efforts or money, there's a minimal investment required in my experience. You cannot program a drum machine or software properly if you don't have any music theory basic knowledge, neither can you become a good drummer without several months/years intense practise.

My credibility is only the one of a musician who plays the drums and of a music reviewer. Feel free to disagree or dislike.
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InThyKingdom
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:25 am
Posts: 154
Location: Bulgaria
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:49 pm 
 

KFD could you post samples with some of the recordings you did?
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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
Posts: 1064
Location: France
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:53 am 
 

Of course:






You can check my label's Youtube channel and my Soundcloud page below:

http://www.youtube.com/user/SoleilBlancProds/videos
https://soundcloud.com/vordak
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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
Posts: 1064
Location: France
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:58 am 
 

And here's a track recorded with a drum machine, so you can figure out the difference:

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InThyKingdom
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:25 am
Posts: 154
Location: Bulgaria
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:08 pm 
 

Thank you for the samples!
Ok here is my opinion. What I've heard sounds lets say fine for a specific black metal, but tbh it is not what I'm searching while recording drums, or guitars. Yes, may be it has it's dark and primitive aura, but for example I would not pay for such quality. In this case I would prefer to click with the mouse in attempt to reach what I'm looking for or at least something closer to it. Still it is just my opinion and I hope I'm not offending you with it!
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infinitenexus
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 am
Posts: 1939
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:28 pm 
 

No offense, don't worry about it. Drum machines and drum software can be a touchy topic for some. For people like me, I have no real choice - if I want to keep releasing music as much as I currently do without a reduction in quality, I have to use drum machines (I move around a lot for my job). From my experience of 4 years of using drum software, the positive is that all the music will be yours - including the drums - and you'll never be limited by a drummer. You can have any beats you want. The negatives are that if you're a guitarist, it's going to take a lot of work to make your programmed drums sound like a real drummer in terms of drum fills and dynamics. It's taken me 4 years but I'm finally getting there.

All in all it just depends on the person and the music. For me, I'll always use drum software, unless I break down and buy an actual drum set. It keeps the music mine, and the drums without mistakes and always in time.
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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
Posts: 1064
Location: France
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:50 am 
 

@InThyKingdom:
No problem dude, thanks for your honest answer.
Note that the samples I posted are not the maximum drum tone quality that I could reach, but nevertheless, consider this: if you're looking for high-quality drum tracks (recorded with more than 5 mics), you will either have to spend more than 300€ in a mic package, or to go to a professional studio equipped with real drums. From what I've searched on the internet, any professional studio in my own area asks for at least 200€ per hour...

So in the end you'll be spending more than 5 times the money I could ever ask for the same service. But of course my fees also depend on the recording process (efforts and time spent, means involved, technicity of the required track, etc).

Of course if you're not into a professional release project, I guess it's better to get everything for free. But if you are, I cannot think of a decent black metal release that wasn't recorded with a real drummer.

The only great-sounding drum machine I've ever heard is the one used on the Veles/Legion split.
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MutantClannfear
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
Posts: 2270
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:42 am 
 

KFD, if you want people to give you money, just come out and say it. Seeing you beat around the bush like this is rather annoying.
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DarkWolfXV
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:08 pm
Posts: 202
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:24 pm 
 

Man, there are great samples on ultimate metal forum for COMPLETELY free. Just dig around. And these are some world class stuff. Also KFD, 200 euro per hour? What the fuck? In my city professional studios do stuff for 100 PLN a hour which is like 25 euro...
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infinitenexus
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 am
Posts: 1939
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:24 pm 
 

I know a girl that charges $100/hour to "play" in her "studio".
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themicrulah
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:00 am
Posts: 1167
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:26 pm 
 

I personally charge the same rate for people to violate my every orifice, but that's just me.
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infinitenexus
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 am
Posts: 1939
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:12 pm 
 

hahahahaha
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