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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:41 pm 
 

It was shown because Jesse needed to feel bad for himself and have a wake-up call about his drug habits. It was complex as well because, while Walt technically was the one who helped cause her death, it really isn't very much his fault to begin with. Jesse and Jane are to be blamed themselves because they were the ones shooting up to begin with. Walt just happened to be there for an event that would have happened sooner or later anyway. And therein lies the real nihilistic humanity of that scene and a lot of the show's themes - no one is either good or evil all the way. While I won't completely rule out it coming up again, simply because EVERYTHING does come back up again in this show, there's plenty of reasons why it was there.

Frankly it kinda-sorta came up in the "Fly" episode anyway; that's about the closest we can get. Walt doesn't have that much humanity in him anymore, so I don't think it would really come up again...plus there are other things at stake that matter more now.
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Acidgobblin
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:31 am 
 

^I would have the said the actual focus on that scene was Walt witnessing a pretty terrible thing but then realising that Jane actually dying would suit his needs much more then her living. It was cold and calculating; he could most certainly have prevented her from dying and chose not to. And Jessie does not know that. This seems to be one of the worst things that Walt has done over this whole series so I'd be somewhat surprsied if it does not resurface; it sort of demands some kind of retribution. Birds coming home to roost and all...
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Adriankat
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:55 am 
 

Vince Gilligan - 4
BB Fan Predictions - 0

Anyone think Hank broke bad? He had the moral high ground and represented the lawful good character up until Walt made Hank realize that he was in the shittiest position possible. Now, he's willing to get someone (Jesse) killed to get the evidence he needs.
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lurkist
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:28 am 
 

Surprised more wasn't made of Steve Gomez being brought into the loop. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't last night's episode the first he's heard of it all? Kinda took it in his stride didn't he?
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:01 am 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:
^I would have the said the actual focus on that scene was Walt witnessing a pretty terrible thing but then realising that Jane actually dying would suit his needs much more then her living. It was cold and calculating; he could most certainly have prevented her from dying and chose not to. And Jessie does not know that. This seems to be one of the worst things that Walt has done over this whole series so I'd be somewhat surprsied if it does not resurface; it sort of demands some kind of retribution. Birds coming home to roost and all...


See, I dunno about that; I've heard fans as well as Bryan Cranston himself say this, but my initial reaction upon seeing it was that Walt wasn't evil enough to do that. And then in "Fly" he seemed legitimately repentant and sorry for it. Like I know he's a good liar, but he had no reason to bring it up again and yet did - under the influence of drugs, yes, but still, he did seem like he really felt bad about it. I guess looking back on everything, he did have some very bad intentions when he decided not to let Jane live, but to me it just seemed like he was being an awkward old man and had no clue what the hell to do when a young woman was suffocating on her own vomit in front of him. Eh. Maybe I'll watch it again sometime and get a different perspective.

And yeah, it's no holds barred now. I don't see Hank as coming out of this on top anymore.
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Evoken
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:05 am 
 

lurkist wrote:
Surprised more wasn't made of Steve Gomez being brought into the loop. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't last night's episode the first he's heard of it all? Kinda took it in his stride didn't he?


Yeah they totally rushed that with Steve Gomez finding out. Kind of disappointing that they're finishing up the series in 8 episodes, but flying through some details like that which could have been really interesting if they actually showed them. I commend Vince Gilligan for having the guts to end the series, since way too many shows go on for far too long, but when they rush through important details like this it makes me think they're wasting some of the story and ending the series too early.

Just one episode back Steve Gomez was asking Hank questions about why he secretly questioned Jesse, and Hank stopped him and made him drop the conversation. Now one episode later Steve is completely filled in and has no reaction? I can't help but feel like if the writers weren't pressed to end this show in 4 more episodes, we'd have actually seen that conversation happen on screen.

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SleightOfVickonomy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:30 am 
 

It is racing along at a pace I don't quite appreciate. Usually shows will drag on and kill what was a good story initially but with Breaking Bad, I wish they'd left a bit more room so it can be that more satisfying.

The end is at hand....

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VenusianSea
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:02 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Hi :hyper:


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VenusianSea
Mallcore Kid

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:07 am 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:
Yeah right, because Breaking Bad is never dramatic....;) I sort of feel something needs to come from that incident because I can see no reason for it to have been shown unless its going to be followed up. I think it would actually make for even more soul-crushing craziness.


Didn't say it wasn't, and it still strikes me a bit contrived for the show to somehow make Walt admit that to Jesse.

And you can't say that nothing came out of that incidents. As others mentioned, there have been all kinds of repercussions on Jesse's story line and on his relationship with Walt. And let's not forget the plane crash as a direct result from her death.

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volutetheswarth
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:07 pm 
 

I wasn't fussed they skipped over Steve Gomez at all, or Jesse's confession. I can live without a walkthrough of those events.

Interested to see what Jesse will do.

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Under_Starmere
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:19 pm 
 

Yeah there's really no reason for the Jane subject to come up again, realistically. It doesn't have any plot relevance anymore. It's definitely a secret Walt would like to keep buried. I guess I could feasibly see something slipping out in a vindictive moment of argument, but anyway, probably won't happen.

@Emp No question Walt deliberately let Jane die, he knew exactly what he was doing there.

Would've been cool to see Gomie's reaction when Hank let him in on the truth, but I'm not sure we missed out on much. It basically would've been Hank saying "look, you're the only person I can trust with this, and I know this sounds crazy, but I can show you something at my house that'll convince you." Gomie says "show me what you got," or "you'd better not be pissing on me here, you goddamn cripple," and then they get in Hank's car.

Great episode, ugggh can't wait to see what happens.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:21 pm 
 

Gomez is a very minor character in the grand scheme of things, I don't think his reaction or feelings matter all that much. He's there to serve the plot and Hank's character development, not much more than that.

Empyreal wrote:
See, I dunno about that; I've heard fans as well as Bryan Cranston himself say this, but my initial reaction upon seeing it was that Walt wasn't evil enough to do that. And then in "Fly" he seemed legitimately repentant and sorry for it. Like I know he's a good liar, but he had no reason to bring it up again and yet did - under the influence of drugs, yes, but still, he did seem like he really felt bad about it. I guess looking back on everything, he did have some very bad intentions when he decided not to let Jane live, but to me it just seemed like he was being an awkward old man and had no clue what the hell to do when a young woman was suffocating on her own vomit in front of him. Eh. Maybe I'll watch it again sometime and get a different perspective.

Eh, you're really seriously wrong here. He knew exactly what he was doing when he let her die. He does feel bad about it, because he knows what he was doing was wrong and evil and while Walt (at the time) wasn't lawful good or anything, he wasn't a complete monster (then -- he's kinda close to that now), that's why he was barely holding back tears when Jane was dying and why he's remorseful about it in Fly. But he did it anyway because it served his ends and he goes through his mental gymnastics to justify himself.

Later, he has barely any misgivings about poisoning a little boy for similar reasons (manipulating Jesse and using him) because by that time he has very little humanity left. I'd say letting Jane die was when he crossed the moral event horizon, so to speak.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:08 pm 
 

Eh, fair enough. I was watching it all pretty fast. I can see what you mean.
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Motorpriest
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:11 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Later, he has barely any misgivings about poisoning a little boy for similar reasons (manipulating Jesse and using him) because by that time he has very little humanity left. I'd say letting Jane die was when he crossed the moral event horizon, so to speak.


This is a very important point... Season 3 is when Walt really starts hurting/using those close to him to get ahead with little regard as to how it may affect those being used. He came clean to Skyler about cooking meth at the beginning of Season 3 (very shortly after letting Jane die) and started tormenting her by refusing to move out of the house and turning Walter Jr against her.

He then figures out that Gus steered the Cousins towards Hank to protect him (along with the whole cornering the American SW meth market thing) and he "respects the strategy". Despite the fact that Hank nearly died. Don't forget what he convinced Jesse to do at the end of the season as well.

Spoiler: show
Thinking back on it, I wonder how Walt can be so sanctimonious when it comes to Saul's "Belize" suggestion for Hank. Maybe it's his ego?

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BarryLamarBonds
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:32 pm 
 

I'm in season 3, so I'm ignoring everything in this thread to avoid spoilers. I just watched the Fly episode. Or the first 15 minutes, before fast forwarding through it to see if anything but fly catching took place. That episode alone has almost killed my entire interest in this show.

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HellBlazer
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:34 pm 
 

BarryLamarBonds wrote:
I'm in season 3, so I'm ignoring everything in this thread to avoid spoilers. I just watched the Fly episode. Or the first 15 minutes, before fast forwarding through it to see if anything but fly catching took place. That episode alone has almost killed my entire interest in this show.


Heh. It's the only filler episode in the series.

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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:36 pm 
 

Haha yes, that's true, but it's also fucking fantastic.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:43 am 
 

It's a great episode. One of the better stand-alone ones in terms of character development - the last 15-20 minutes are golden. The first bits are funny as hell too.
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GuntherTheUndying
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:03 pm 
 

Whoa, tonight's ending was intense as heck.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:46 pm 
 

Yeah. But come on, no one got hit in that firing spree? These so-called killers shoot like Stormtroopers or what? :lol:
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burnroasted
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:51 pm 
 

Yeah at least hit gomez ffs.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:00 am 
 

I'm betting someone gets hit by the beginning of the next one, but yeah, bit weird...:lol: Great episode though. Intense.
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Adriankat
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:18 am 
 

That last scene required more suspension of disbelief than anything else on the show so far. Hank and Gomez would have gotten Scarfaced before they even had the chance to run for cover. I think it would have been more effective (for the viewer) and realistic if they were both behind cover from the start. Then when the gunfire breaks out, Hank and Gomez aren't even able to fire back and instead look at each other with the look of "we're so fucked" on their faces. Then cut to credits. But then again, I'm no TV show producer. :P I just find it hard to believe that the same crew that completely iced Declan's crew couldn't take out two men right there.

Regardless, crazy good episode. You know the next one is going to be even crazier when the next episode preview shows absolutely nothing new.
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volutetheswarth
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:11 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Yeah. But come on, no one got hit in that firing spree? These so-called killers shoot like Stormtroopers or what?
They were clearly trying to stretch out the scene as long as they could, as to WHY THEY DID I wish I knew, it was almost painful to watch in comparison to the rest of the episode. A satisfying ending would have been Hank and Gomez taken out. Also, maybe it was just his bad acting but I really didn't buy Huell just falling for Hank's shit. He works for freakin' Saul Goodman, c'mon?!

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aaronmb666
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:22 am 
 

In case no one has watched it yet, but my thoughts on the very end of the episode
Spoiler: show
I thought for sure that when the uncle looked at the other guy, theyd shoot at the car Jesse was in and would shoot it, killing him

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Acidgobblin
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:37 am 
 

BarryLamarBonds wrote:
I'm in season 3, so I'm ignoring everything in this thread to avoid spoilers. I just watched the Fly episode. Or the first 15 minutes, before fast forwarding through it to see if anything but fly catching took place. That episode alone has almost killed my entire interest in this show.


It is something of an anomaly for Breaking Bad, but still a brilliant episode. We can't have constant violence and action; despite its almost inane mundanity its actually quite nerve racking, given that it flirts with Walt revealing his ruthlessness. Also funny. But keep watching, as not many episodes are really like that.

Regarding the lates one: Holy shit....Brilliant episode. Agreed with the whole shooting bit; how the hell do you miss so completely? That itself would have to take some sort of skill... But- before that- extremely intense.

One question: why wouldn't Hank and Gomez have called for back-up almost immediately upon finding Walt in the desert? They, of all people, know how potentially dangerous he is; sure, Hank wanted to gloat, but that seems like an epic lack of insight. Perhaps they were just caught up in the moment, but a pretty bad time to get cocky.

Beyond that though, very well done- this show just gets better and better.
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OneSizeFitzpatrick
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:52 am 
 

burnroasted wrote:
Yeah at least hit gomez ffs.

I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking that. Maybe it's because he looks so much like George Lopez, or it's the fact that he hasn't had any useful dialogue in the whole series other than to be hank's "back up man" (makes clicking noise and winks). It's like, what the hell do you plan on hitting with an 870 pump action at that distance?
Despite all that, the "final episodes" have been a pleasant surprise for me so far.
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lurkist
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:56 am 
 

I thought after Hank's phone call to Marie, he and Gomey would just get sniped from up on the rocks.
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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:23 am 
 

I like Gomez.

I did expect them to be mown down too. They should have been turned into Swiss cheese before even getting close to cover. It would have been fitting and made for some perfectly fine drama too, with Hank calling Marie and all that. But whatever, still makes for an awesome cliffhanger.

OneSizeFitzpatrick wrote:
It's like, what the hell do you plan on hitting with an 870 pump action at that distance?

They were planning on cornering Walt, one guy, up close after he'd led them to the money. They didn't expect a horde of neonazis armed to the teeth with assault rifles showing up. What was he supposed to do after Todd's guys had arrived? Get closer? Getting a few shots off now is still better than doing nothing at all. Though I'm no expert on ballistics. :P

Also, could Todd get any creepier?
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TadGhostal
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:44 pm 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:
One question: why wouldn't Hank and Gomez have called for back-up almost immediately upon finding Walt in the desert? They, of all people, know how potentially dangerous he is; sure, Hank wanted to gloat, but that seems like an epic lack of insight. Perhaps they were just caught up in the moment, but a pretty bad time to get cocky.

Beyond that though, very well done- this show just gets better and better.


I'm pretty sure that Hank and Gomez are operating on their own, here. I believe that Hank's plan was to take Walt and all the evidence he could find to the DEA before he ever revealed anything about Walt's involvement to them. They outsmarted Walt and tricked him into leading him to his money on his own so, in their minds, there was no need for back up. Frankly, Hank wasted too much time gloating in his ability to outsmart Walt.

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Windom Earle
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:04 pm 
 

They both should've been shot - AT LEAST! You know they're both going to die next episode and it's so fucking unrealistic that they made it to cover when a group of armed KILLERS are firing at them. It's almost insulting they would put that in there. And the car scene was kind of stupid too - it felt like a scene out of fucking Speed or something. I've been really on the fence about this season and some of the things thrown in that don't feel up to par. Don't bother asking cause I don't feel like trying to remember. Still a fun episode though - I can't wait to see what happens to Walt and Jesse.

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Markov
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:17 pm 
 

I was really into the show, and then season 4 ended. I really feel like the series could have ended right there and then. Season 5 just seems to be about forcing loose ends.
Am I the only one that feels like this? Season 4 was pretty much the pinnacle, too, for me. I watched almost all of the entire series in a matter of a week, too. Haha.
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Necroticism174
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:39 pm 
 

I get that they're trying to go OMG CLIFFHANGER on us, but god damn that was a disappointing ending to an otherwise good episode.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:54 pm 
 

You guys smoke crack. That episode was fucking excellent. At that distance there's no way Hank or Gomez would've been able to hit anything after coming under fire. Those neo-nazis are clearly extremely effective professionals. I don't think the show would be THAT DUMB to have them all just fucking miss like that. Those guys need a cook, and they KNOW that Jesse is nearly as good as Walt and certainly better than Todd. My guess? They're trying to whack Walt, knowing that he's not being cooperative, and assume Hank and Gomie are Jesse's guys. They want Jesse to be their cook. Why do you think they went out there anyway after Walt called off the hit?
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Windom Earle
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:08 pm 
 

Markov wrote:
I was really into the show, and then season 4 ended. I really feel like the series could have ended right there and then. Season 5 just seems to be about forcing loose ends.
Am I the only one that feels like this? Season 4 was pretty much the pinnacle, too, for me. I watched almost all of the entire series in a matter of a week, too. Haha.

Ya I feel like this season is my least favorite for some reason - even though it's still awesome and exciting. Season 3 and 4 were my favorite.

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GuntherTheUndying
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:10 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
You guys smoke crack. That episode was fucking excellent. At that distance there's no way Hank or Gomez would've been able to hit anything after coming under fire. Those neo-nazis are clearly extremely effective professionals. I don't think the show would be THAT DUMB to have them all just fucking miss like that. Those guys need a cook, and they KNOW that Jesse is nearly as good as Walt and certainly better than Todd. My guess? They're trying to whack Walt, knowing that he's not being cooperative, and assume Hank and Gomie are Jesse's guys. They want Jesse to be their cook. Why do you think they went out there anyway after Walt called off the hit?

Holy shit, I never thought about that. They now know Jesse has the same cooking abilities as Walt, so they just use him instead. Not sure if that'll happen, but who knows? Gilligan has been full of shockers this season.
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Adriankat
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:11 pm 
 

Did anyone catch how the Neo-Nazis were saying that purity wasn't important? :lol:
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Windom Earle
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:13 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
You guys smoke crack. That episode was fucking excellent. At that distance there's no way Hank or Gomez would've been able to hit anything after coming under fire. Those neo-nazis are clearly extremely effective professionals. I don't think the show would be THAT DUMB to have them all just fucking miss like that. Those guys need a cook, and they KNOW that Jesse is nearly as good as Walt and certainly better than Todd. My guess? They're trying to whack Walt, knowing that he's not being cooperative, and assume Hank and Gomie are Jesse's guys. They want Jesse to be their cook. Why do you think they went out there anyway after Walt called off the hit?

I don't think Walt's being difficult or giving any reason for them to kill him - they suspect Jesse is a rat so they're out there to kill him cause he knows to much and is being sketchy. AND they want Walt to cook for them which he agreed to. I doubt they will kill Jesse though - they'll work something out or something.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:21 pm 
 

You guys are nuts, the fifth season has been awesome. The train robbery? The Godfather-style mafia takeover by Walt? The super cool schemes everyone comes up with to outsmart everyone else (magnets, etc.) It's a pastiche of a lot of amazing elements of various action/thriller stuff and it is great. Love the fast pace of it all, too.

As for iamntbatman's theory, I think it's got some weight to it. Jesse seemed to be the only one they WEREN'T aiming at.
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Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:21 pm 
 

Todd "learned" from Walt before and came away with a purity level in the 70's. What he just cooked was only a couple percent higher than Declan's cook and wasn't blue. They wanted Walt to cook for them. Sure, they can tell him it's just a couple of cooks to get Todd back on his feet or whatever, but they also know how greedy Walt's become so it's not a stretch to imagine that they'd try to pressure him into staying on full-time. He pushed for just a single cook to re-teach Todd as payment for the hit on Jesse. Plus, the "rat" conversation showed them that he was possibly unsure about having Jesse offed in the first place since Walt still cares about him or whatever. Then he calls off the hit like that, sounding all distressed on the phone? Now they're out a cook. Keep in mind that Jesse has been in DEA custody since Todd's crew wiped out Declan's, anyway, so they didn't have any way of accessing him to BE their cook. Until now.
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