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Evil_Johnny_666
Reigning king of the night

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:54 pm
Posts: 3997
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:58 am 
 

Burnyoursins wrote:
And you always hear these sob stories about "peaceful protesters being violently attacked with no provocation" all the goddamned time. There is ALWAYS a second side to every story.

Going a bit out of subject, the police CAN be politically implicated. I witnessed this firsthand - ie. 2 people breaking a window with bricks and the whole police jumping at us, people getting arrested in unlawful conditions because they voiced their disagreements of someone peacefully sitting down getting beaten. A couple of people causing trouble isn't a reason to run over everyone and shoot rubber bullets in the face, which isn't even really allowed as it can kill. It is not made for crowd control. Policemen being undercover to cause trouble is real too. I personally can't trust the police anymore with these kinds of protests. It's just too easy for them to make everyone look bad and take control over something which should be a democratic demonstration. We should be able to protest without a few idiots ruining it for everybody, the police are trained for this. This is rights restriction. You can't believe everything the media tells you.

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
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Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:19 pm 
 

Burnyoursins wrote:
it's not as if he killed some totally innocent teen who had a whole lot to give society


:ugh:
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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:07 pm 
 

Yeah for real, what the fuck had you done at 17 that was worth a shit?
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Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 258714 subjects

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:24 pm 
 

I'm disappointed, burnyoursins, everyone deserve to live, what the fuck was that? At least the dude wasn't a white man wearing a fedora eh?
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LanceCriminal
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:25 am
Posts: 75
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:00 pm 
 

Metantoine wrote:
I'm disappointed, burnyoursins, everyone deserve to live, what the fuck was that? At least the dude wasn't a white man wearing a fedora eh?


Well I've Never met a fedora wearing white man that goes prowling around neighborhoods causing problems.

This right here is why a clear cut justifiable homicide turned into a retarded media circus :roll:

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9514
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:07 pm 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
Okay, it's been brought up enough times (including by the world's ultimate anti-bullshitter Morrigan, of all people) that I think I'll just ask it: why? Zimmerman's lawyers did not invoke the Stand Your Ground law. It wouldn't have mattered anyway if Florida didn't have that law, as he was pinned to the ground and had no opportunity to flee. Ergo, to claim Stand Your Ground had any bearing on the case is bullshit.

Wouldn't he have been legally forced to stay in his car and wait for police, instead of going out in the streets to confront the so-called "suspicious man"? I'm not sure if that falls under the SYG law, but it's ridiculous that he was even legally allowed to go out there and follow and confront Trayvon when his life wasn't even in danger at the time. Whichever law allowed him to do that (SYG or otherwise) is retarded and broken.

LanceCriminal wrote:
Well I've Never met a fedora wearing white man that goes prowling around neighborhoods causing problems.

This right here is why a clear cut justifiable homicide turned into a retarded media circus :roll:

Sarcasm, right?
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:18 pm 
 

Based on the 911 call, it's pretty ambiguous. The operator tells Zimmerman that they "don't need him to do that." I think this can be interpreted in two ways; for one, it could be extremely literal, i.e. they legally don't need him to do that in order to have the police stop him or whatever, or it could mean "don't do that." I guess I should listen to the audio since the operator's tone of voice when saying that would probably indicate which meaning was meant by it.
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darkeningday
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:23 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
LanceCriminal wrote:
Well I've Never met a fedora wearing white man that goes prowling around neighborhoods causing problems.

This right here is why a clear cut justifiable homicide turned into a retarded media circus :roll:

Sarcasm, right?

Almost certainly not. Ironically enough, before I read the username I thought his first line was near genius, especially with the newfound popularity of prohibition era, fedora-wearing gangsters. Surely there are quite a few criminals who wear fedoras to mask their appearance these days--probably named Lance.
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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:12 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Earthcubed wrote:
Okay, it's been brought up enough times (including by the world's ultimate anti-bullshitter Morrigan, of all people) that I think I'll just ask it: why? Zimmerman's lawyers did not invoke the Stand Your Ground law. It wouldn't have mattered anyway if Florida didn't have that law, as he was pinned to the ground and had no opportunity to flee. Ergo, to claim Stand Your Ground had any bearing on the case is bullshit.

Wouldn't he have been legally forced to stay in his car and wait for police, instead of going out in the streets to confront the so-called "suspicious man"? I'm not sure if that falls under the SYG law, but it's ridiculous that he was even legally allowed to go out there and follow and confront Trayvon when his life wasn't even in danger at the time. Whichever law allowed him to do that (SYG or otherwise) is retarded and broken.

To my knowledge, no kind of self-defense law in this country applies if you're the aggressor. In Zimmerman's testimony, he said he got out of his car, but then was on his way back to it when Martin suddenly confronted HIM and initiated the fight.
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Derigin
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:22 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Earthcubed wrote:
Okay, it's been brought up enough times (including by the world's ultimate anti-bullshitter Morrigan, of all people) that I think I'll just ask it: why? Zimmerman's lawyers did not invoke the Stand Your Ground law. It wouldn't have mattered anyway if Florida didn't have that law, as he was pinned to the ground and had no opportunity to flee. Ergo, to claim Stand Your Ground had any bearing on the case is bullshit.

Wouldn't he have been legally forced to stay in his car and wait for police, instead of going out in the streets to confront the so-called "suspicious man"? I'm not sure if that falls under the SYG law, but it's ridiculous that he was even legally allowed to go out there and follow and confront Trayvon when his life wasn't even in danger at the time. Whichever law allowed him to do that (SYG or otherwise) is retarded and broken.

To answer your first question, Morri, it wasn't unlawful. In fact, in most jurisdictions, it's not illegal or unlawful to simply follow someone. This is one reason why, when he called 911, the operator told him he was not obligated to follow Trayvon, but that he was allowed to do so if he so chose. The other reason is that a 911 operator is not actually allowed to give lawful orders; they are there to advise, not to command. At the point that he decided to follow Trayvon, SYG hadn't really come into effect. He could still be charged with the act of following, by the way, given that it could be considered a civil offense (provocation, for example). The problem for the prosecution, again, would be the lack of proving intent to provoke and what actually happened. Up until the confrontation, there's nothing to show whether Zimmerman was simply asking Trayvon to identify himself, whether he was brandishing his gun, whether Zimmerman was calling him out aggressively, or even if Zimmerman was just silently tracking Trayvon. All of that makes for a dubious case.

Where SYG came into effect was in the actual confrontation. Unlike most laws on self-defense, SYG doesn't require you to attempt to flee, and it also allows you to use excessive force if you feel you're threatened. A broken interpretation of self-defense. With the actual fight, Zimmerman made the case that Trayvon turned around, jumped him, began to beat him, and at that point Zimmerman used his gun to shoot Trayvon. SYG allows for this. The prosecution was unable to make the case that this wasn't how it went down, so the jury acquitted him.

The argument that Zimmerman probably wouldn't have followed Trayvon if he didn't have a gun might be correct. He likely did feel empowered by having it with him. I still suspect, however, that Zimmerman probably would have kept tracking him - though with his vehicle, instead of by foot. For whatever reason - high crime in his area, small penis syndrome, wanting to be a pseudo-cop, whatever - he appears to have been adamant to track Trayvon's activities. Thing is, at this point, everything is conjecture. We really don't know what Zimmerman was thinking. We also don't know what Trayvon was actually up to, or if he really was just coming home from the convenience store. As tragic as this case is, it really has been blown out of proportion.

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
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Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:51 pm 
 

As I said, Derigin, I think it's ambiguous whether or not the operator told him that he COULD follow Trayvon. All he said was "we don't need you to do that" which could have a couple of different meanings.
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Derigin
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:58 pm 
 

The thing about the operator is that he/she can't actually command you to do anything, one way or another. It reflects the law; you're more than free to follow someone, though law enforcement does not need you to do so. It was the operator's way of saying "we don't recommend it, but well, if you're going to do it, there's nothing stopping you."

Personally, and I know this might sound strange, but I could understand wanting to follow in this case. From the viewpoint of Zimmerman, Trayvon was a suspicious person in his neighborhood. Maybe he simply wanted to see what the guy was up to, so that he could report it back to the police? That'd be no different then if I was in a suburb, and one of the residents wanted to see who I am and what I was up to; I'd respond in kind and hope that was the end of it. You have every right to ask other people such questions. Beyond that, at least, the Zimmerman case is a big unknown. At one point a fight broke out, and a young man was shot and killed. We don't know whether it really was self-defense, just that under the law enough doubt existed for an acquittal. To me, at least, that is the justice system actually working; the jury followed the law - not emotions - and fulfilled their covenant to uphold the law. We could only hope that, that was more common among juries and judges.

The legacy of this is that there are clear issues with the SYG law, which makes self-defense an easy defense. Perhaps concealing weapons might not be a good idea? Maybe neighborhood watch programs have to end, or there should be a higher police presence so that neighborhood watch programs don't have to exist? Lots of things that could be looked at to avoid similar incidents.

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failsafeman
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Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:14 pm 
 

Travyon was not a "suspicious person". He was walking on the sidewalk. If he were sneaking through backyards or loitering around then sure, but he was just walking and talking on his cell phone. If that's all it takes to make you a "suspicious person," then we are all suspicious people - unless of course he was racially profiling Martin, which seems pretty certain at this point.
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LanceCriminal
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:25 am
Posts: 75
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:31 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
LanceCriminal wrote:
Well I've Never met a fedora wearing white man that goes prowling around neighborhoods causing problems.

This right here is why a clear cut justifiable homicide turned into a retarded media circus :roll:


Almost certainly not. Ironically enough, before I read the username I thought his first line was near genius, especially with the newfound popularity of prohibition era, fedora-wearing gangsters. Surely there are quite a few criminals who wear fedoras to mask their appearance these days--probably named Lance.


Wow what an insightful debate. :roll:

I'm honestly shocked at all the support for a common street thug, not to mention the anti-self defense comments. Didn't expect I'd find such a group of bleeding vaginas on a forum for metalheads.

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Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 258714 subjects

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:42 pm 
 

BRB, gonna buy some kotex.
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Derigin
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Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:42 pm 
 

Quote:
Travyon was not a "suspicious person". He was walking on the sidewalk. If he were sneaking through backyards or loitering around then sure, but he was just walking and talking on his cell phone. If that's all it takes to make you a "suspicious person," then we are all suspicious people - unless of course he was racially profiling Martin, which seems pretty certain at this point.

Maybe. Though I'm personally suspect that he did it on racial grounds, partly because he does appear to have a history of not doing so. For all we know it could be on cultural grounds, that Trayvon simply looked and acted the part of a thug, and Zimmerman judged him on that. Maybe it all came down to Zimmerman not recognizing a stranger? Perhaps Trayvon acted out in a way that seemed suspicious for Zimmerman? Who knows, maybe it was racism after all. The problem is we don't know, and to narrow the whole incident down to this uncertainty - and solely this uncertainty - is actually the most tragic part of this.

A young man loses his life, and people scream hate crime... but they don't look at the rest of the picture. Why was it necessary for there to be a neighborhood watch program? Why did Zimmerman feel the need to carry a concealed weapon? Why is it OK to carry a concealed weapon on a residential street? Why did they resort to fighting? Why is the law written so that using excessive force in this type of circumstance is permitted? Is having a SYG law worth having, in spite of this incident?

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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:01 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
A young man loses his life, and people scream hate crime... but they don't look at the rest of the picture.

What the hell are you talking about? We've been spending the better part of the thread looking at the rest of the picture.
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T51b
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:35 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:11 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
Is having a SYG law worth having, in spite of this incident?


In a perfect legal world the standard self defense law would be enough. The exact instructions to the jury from the Judge on the grounds of justifiable homicide were:

Quote:
The killing of a human being is justifiable and lawful if necessarily done while resistingan attempt to murder or commit a felony upon George Zimmerman, or to commit a felony inany dwelling house in which George Zimmerman was at the time of the attempted killing


http://www.scribd.com/doc/153354467/Geo ... structions

As was previously mentioned in this thread, stand your ground laws simply clear up murky legal loopholes. Before expanded castle doctrine/SYG there were some states that would have charged you with a crime if you had defended yourself with deadly force within your home, but had a backdoor or some alternate route that you "could" have taken to escape. It is just further legal protection for people who would abuse the system. We just had this conversation on ARFCOM and it was summed up nicely by SoCALJBT:

Quote:
The benefit is that nobody tries to argue against you in court that you might have been able to get away so you had the duty to retreat until you were trapped.

EX: You're walking down the sidewalk, a guy pulls knife on you & demands your wallet. You can either;
A. Turn your back on him, run away, & hope that you're faster.
B. Put 2 in his chest (due to the imminent death or bodily harm that you are about to suffer), then call the cops


Not the most perfect law by any means, but it cleared up a heck of a lot of legal issues that existed before they were enacted.

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Derigin
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:28 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Derigin wrote:
A young man loses his life, and people scream hate crime... but they don't look at the rest of the picture.

What the hell are you talking about? We've been spending the better part of the thread looking at the rest of the picture.

I was referring to those outside of this thread. The general public.

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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:29 pm 
 

Or you could, you know, give him your wallet then call the police with a solid description of the guy. But nah, I guess your only options when being robbed are to run away or kill the guy. Man, is that whole forum full of people who would love nothing better but to kill someone?
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T51b
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:35 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:37 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
Or you could, you know, give him your wallet then call the police with a solid description of the guy. But nah, I guess your only options when being robbed are to run away or kill the guy. Man, is that whole forum full of people who would love nothing better but to kill someone?


The only real trigger happy talk I see on there comes from veterans. There is a large military population on there who have served/are serving overseas and have seen combat. You will find that anywhere you go with a gathering of veterans. The general consensus of most on there comes from a point of, why should we be the victims if we have the capacity to defend ourselves? Obviously we could get into a morale debate about the value of human life, but I have little regard for the welfare of anyone who would put my family or self in danger.

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Earthcubed
Peregrinus sine aetate

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:17 pm 
 

There is also absolutely no way you know he won't stab you after he gets your wallet, which happens.



Also, not that I want to agree with someone who seems to relish trigger-happiness two times on one page, but his comment about "further legal protection for people who would abuse the system" really shouldn't be ignored. There have been cases of prosecutors trying to take people to trial for shooting attackers breaking into their own home. I'm not really sure how that duty-to-retreat logic works in their head, but in those cases it literally appears to be "when cornered in your home, always try to jump out the window rather than shooting back. Hey, it's only the third floor of an apartment complex, even if your legs are too mangled to run away on it's not like he's going to follow you out the window and...."
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T51b
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:22 pm 
 

It happens more than people would like to think. Here is one from this week actually.

Quote:
S.C. Supreme Court Orders ‘Stand Your Ground’ Hearing For Armed Intruder Who Shot Homeowner
Fri, July 12, 2013

The South Carolina Supreme Court halted a murder trial and ordered a hearing on the state’s “stand your ground” law after an accused armed intruder claimed he shot a homeowner because he believed he was about to shoot him first.


http://www.opposingviews.com/i/sports/s ... -homeowner


People will always try and manipulate laws that are not worded in the strictest way possible.

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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:46 pm 
 

This is why I mentioned the thing about retired police officers advising people taking self-defense courses to kill their attacker rather than risk him/her lying well enough to convince the cops you attacked first without warning, or that he broke into your house but apologized and was about to leave when you shot him for no reason, etc. Even if it doesn't convince the legal authorities he can pretty easily bankrupt you through litigation.

Nationally we should just have a hard Castle Doctrine without a duty to retreat. Your home is your castle, and nobody can claim self-defense if they break in. Outside the home, retreat when reasonable. If it comes down to hoping you can outrun an attacker, that doesn't count as reasonable.

Also, we should have God-like police and state's attorneys who can interpret every situation perfectly and never get anything wrong ever.
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:53 pm 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
Nationally we should just have a hard Castle Doctrine without a duty to retreat. Your home is your castle, and nobody can claim self-defense if they break in. Outside the home, retreat when reasonable. If it comes down to hoping you can outrun an attacker, that doesn't count as reasonable.

Ah, so my being out of shape and without hope of outrunning anyone would then become a super-cool LICENSE TO KILL. Booya! I support this law.
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Earthcubed
Peregrinus sine aetate

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:07 am 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Earthcubed wrote:
Nationally we should just have a hard Castle Doctrine without a duty to retreat. Your home is your castle, and nobody can claim self-defense if they break in. Outside the home, retreat when reasonable. If it comes down to hoping you can outrun an attacker, that doesn't count as reasonable.

Ah, so my being out of shape and without hope of outrunning anyone would then become a super-cool LICENSE TO KILL. Booya! I support this law.



Would you rather the law state you can't defend yourself from a knife-wielding opponent until the moment after he stabs you in the back when he catches up to you?
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Derigin
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:25 am 
 

Uh, normal legal definitions for self-defense (without a Castle Doctrine and at least in Canada) DO allow you to respond with deadly force in those cases where grievous harm is eminent. So, in this case, if someone unlawfully enters your home, wielding a knife or a gun, and you fear for your life, you're permitted to use deadly force. It's not recommended, but the law is on your side. The emphasis in self-defense is on what is considered reasonable, and it's not reasonable to be injured in order to protect yourself. The problem with Castle Doctrine and SYG is that it allows for preemption and it allows for excessive force. For example, in some states, if you are in your house and someone breaks and enters, you are permitted to use deadly force EVEN IF that individual is presumed unarmed and not necessarily a grievous threat. SYG often allows individuals to invoke those same principles for their person.

The reason the law is broken is because it is no longer reasonable. It's broken because it opens up more holes than it's intended to fill, particularly on the ability to use deadly force in situations which would not normally warrant it. It leaves open too much interpretation (he said, she said), and can be easily abused. You have a right to protect your family, your household and yourself, but that shouldn't necessarily include the principle of "shoot first." The preemption bit is the part that concerns me most, personally, because it assumes a crime will happen or is underway... without the crime actually having actually started. That's honestly ridiculous.

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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:26 am 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
failsafeman wrote:
Ah, so my being out of shape and without hope of outrunning anyone would then become a super-cool LICENSE TO KILL. Booya! I support this law.

Would you rather the law state you can't defend yourself from a knife-wielding opponent until the moment after he stabs you in the back when he catches up to you?

I was joking. Jeez, can't a guy inject a little levity into a serious conversation once in a while?
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Kahalachan
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Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 1:46 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:26 am 
 

My two thoughts.

1. I prefer a judicial system that favors acquittal and innocent until proven guilty. I'd rather see 9 guilty go free than to jail one innocent.

2. I don't see race. I just know some dude killed a teen. If more people saw race as arbitrary and didn't care, then race would be much less of an issue.


Also my copy pasted Facebook post to counter all the pro or against Zimmermin verdicts out there.

Quote:
Americans want justice eh? So long as critical thinking is not the norm, but group think, beliefs, and personal feelings trump all objective evidence, there won't be any.

I'm neutral on Zimmerman because I should be. I'm a dude in Hawaii who has no real facts about a shooting in Florida.

Those for or against the Zimmerman outcome because of bias, personally held beliefs, and emotion are demonstrating exactly what's wrong with our judicial system.

Those who mention the races of the people involved are the problem with racism in America. Race is arbitrary like hair color. A collection of physical qualities. I know a dude shot a teen. I don't give a shit about race.

Want justice? Consider that you may be wrong and examine the other side's evidence and point of view. Want race to not be an issue? Never make a big deal about race, ever.

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lord_ghengis
Metal freak

Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:31 pm
Posts: 5373
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:53 am 
 

Race is getting brought up because the whole instigation of the event seems to be that the shooter found the teen a public threat while walking along the street with no particular reasoning, thus race seems to be a factor there. That or baggy clothes in general.

It's not quite people going "OMG the dead guy was black das racis!" here, it seems to have been a factor.

Although it can't be said with certainty of course, since his own justifications are private, it could just be an old dude who finds young fashions scary.
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King_Hands
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:46 am
Posts: 629
Location: Indiana
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:13 am 
 

Burnyoursins wrote:
it's not as if he killed some totally innocent teen who had a whole lot to give society.

I don't know what the fuck is wrong with people like you who say things like this. Justifications for killing someone exist within the law, but managing to prove that the person you killed actually wasn't a great person isn't one of them. It's not relevant at all.

EDIT: Fixed quoting

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darkeningday
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 1866
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:20 am 
 

You quoted the wrong person :-P
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waiguoren
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:23 am
Posts: 2159
Location: Make a kiss to her
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:30 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
You quoted the wrong person :-P


Yeah I can't believe failsafeman wrote that. Quite frankly I'm shocked and appalled.
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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:36 am
Posts: 1966
Location: Panopticon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:19 am 
 

Burnyoursins wrote:
failsafeman wrote:
but at the same time if you go to a protest with a high potential to turn violent while you're pregnant, you're a fucking idiot.


And you always hear these sob stories about "peaceful protesters being violently attacked with no provocation" all the goddamned time. There is ALWAYS a second side to every story.


These people just wanted to have fun and celebrate the solstice, but yeah I guess they were idiots thinking the establishment would leave them alone, especially as they weren't working / paying taxes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beanfield

"When I got back to ITN during the following week and I went to the library to look at all the rushes, most of what I'd thought we'd shot was no longer there. From what I've seen of what ITN has provided since, it just disappeared, particularly some of the nastier shots."
Sabido

"The miners' strike ended earlier in the same year, and comparison was made with the tactics that were used by the police during the strikes. The news section of the Police Review of June 8, 1985 reported "The Police operation had been planned for several months and lessons in rapid deployment learned from the miners' strike were implemented."
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Napero
GedankenPanzer

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
Posts: 8466
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:49 am 
 

mindshadow, we all know you love linking to "news" on UK problems, but will you please keep irrelevant crap about bobbies clubbing dirty hippes out of this thread? That has nothing to do with the subject. Thank you.

You can also stop PMing me those links. It gets tiresome, and I don't give a crap.
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elf48687789
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:03 pm
Posts: 1625
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:40 am 
 

:lol:


But seriously, it makes me sick when I see all the "fuckin' punk" comments that Zimmerman made, both during the 911 call and later during the police questioning, that there is no way I could sympathise with him. He would probably do the same thing to me because I have long hair, had I been in that neighborhood. Plus I also wear hoodies, sometimes with metal bands, sometimes without metal content.

I think either one side had very poor attorneys and the other very good, or the judge was biased and didn't admit a lot of important evidence.

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CorpseFister
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:07 pm
Posts: 1901
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:22 pm 
 

Kahalachan wrote:
Those who mention the races of the people involved are the problem with racism in America. Race is arbitrary like hair color. A collection of physical qualities. I know a dude shot a teen. I don't give a shit about race.

Want justice? Consider that you may be wrong and examine the other side's evidence and point of view. Want race to not be an issue? Never make a big deal about race, ever.


Something like that would be fine to say in an idealized post-racial American, but in reality it doesn’t make much sense. Regardless of whether race played a role in this particular case there are obviously still deep divisions and issues in American society.

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The SHM
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:54 pm
Posts: 134
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:48 pm 
 

LanceCriminal wrote:
Wow what an insightful debate. :roll:

I'm honestly shocked at all the support for a common street thug, not to mention the anti-self defense comments. Didn't expect I'd find such a group of bleeding vaginas on a forum for metalheads.

I'd link a Futurama meme, but I seriously can't be sure about it right now.
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HamburgerBoy
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:40 am
Posts: 1521
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:12 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
The preemption bit is the part that concerns me most, personally, because it assumes a crime will happen or is underway... without the crime actually having actually started. That's honestly ridiculous.


Where is this stated?

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/ind ... Index.html

"Use of force in defense of person" explicitly mentions that it is only applicable in events of imminent bodily harm or death. When applied to home defense, it still requires that unlawful entry occur, not be assumed to occur.

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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4680
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:38 am 
 

LanceCriminal wrote:
Wow what an insightful debate. :roll:

I'm honestly shocked at all the support for a common street thug, not to mention the anti-self defense comments. Didn't expect I'd find such a group of bleeding vaginas on a forum for metalheads.
Yeah, metalheads are well known for their incredible support for police and authority figures. We respect THE LAW and would never controvert the norms of mainstream society.
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