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bluehemisphere
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:04 pm
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:29 pm 
 

Beneath The Remains, Arise, Chaos AD:
I'm wondering if, for these albums (or any other albums), Max started double-tracking all the rhythm parts himself to get things tighter, much like Hetfield did for all the early Metallica albums. It sure sounds like it...

Morbid Visions and Schizo both sound pretty "live" with two guitarists playing together. Am I right?

Anyone know about the recording processes for Sepultura's earlier albums? Did Andreas just lay down lead guitar parts only?

Thanks!

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p0wnn00b
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:40 pm
Posts: 917
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:18 pm 
 

I think loads of bands double-track guitars for heavier sounds. If you listen closely you can hear it. It sort of sounds like there's a slight chorus effect on the guitars (especially if it's done slightly out of time or without the aid of ProTools, which didn't exist in the '80s).

As for whether or not Andreas played rhythms with Max, I can't say. Ultimately, that's probably something only the band and producers would know, but I'll bet Sepultura double-tracked rhythms if the band wasn't recording "live."

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bluehemisphere
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:04 pm
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:40 pm 
 

Actually listening to Chaos again, that too sounds "live", played by two guitarists....
But Beneath and Arise sound too tight to be both of them... ?

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Maniacman
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:32 am
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:44 am 
 

It's got both guitar tracks all the time.

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Turner
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:04 am
Posts: 1659
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:46 am 
 

there's no way arise is just the one guitar - its the thickest, heaviest tone ever recorded in standard tuning.

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LegendMaker
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:24 am
Posts: 1657
Location: France
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:26 am 
 

Of course there are two different rhythm guitar tracks throughout Sepultura's classic albums. I don't think the OP questioned that. The question was: were those two rhythm guitar tracks both played by Max Cavalera rather than one by each guitarist, for some reason, like James Hetfield always did in Metallica (since Dave Mustaine's departure), or like Kerry King pretended to have done in Slayer at various times (but very, very likely didn't, at least not until the 90s).

There's no reason at all to imagine this was the case for Sepultura, ever. No particular mention in the credits like "all rhythm guitars" under Max's name (the 'Arise' booklet says "rhythm guitar" for Max and "'lead guitar" for Andreas; the singular used for the term "guitar", rather than the more widely used plural "guitars", referring to the recorded parts, could either mean they had the instrument/role in mind... or just, you know, that they were still struggling with English at the time, as evidenced by the mention "Lyrical assistance and translation by" followed by two non-members' names). No such practice was ever mentioned anywhere (as far as I know). Andreas Kisser played circles and all kinds of other shapes around Max Cavalera as a musician at the time (and probably still does), so if anything, should they, for whatever reason, have decided to have all rhythm guitar parts played by only one of the two, the logical and practical choice would have been Andreas, not Max.

Last but not least, there's a reason everybody knows that Hetfield prohibits (or used to prohibit) Kirk Hammet from playing rhythm guitar parts in the studio: that's the same reason everybody knows Paul McCartney played the drums on a number of late-period Beatles tracks instead of Ringo Starr: because it's totally unusual and out there. Under normal circumstances, band members play their respective parts on the album. The drummer plays the drums, and when the band has two permanent guitar players, they both play rhythm guitars. Unless otherwise indicated.

The end.
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metroplex
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:28 am
Posts: 473
Location: Peru
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:35 pm 
 

It was probably Andreas too. He would also record bass parts since Paulo Jr is/was a limited player. He reminds me of Rexx Brown, that kind of overrated bass players that aren't good in the studio and are used live just because a bass player is needed....best job on earth.

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somefella
Veteran

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 2998
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:23 am 
 

LegendMaker wrote:
Of course there are two different rhythm guitar tracks throughout Sepultura's classic albums. I don't think the OP questioned that. The question was: were those two rhythm guitar tracks both played by Max Cavalera rather than one by each guitarist, for some reason, like James Hetfield always did in Metallica (since Dave Mustaine's departure), or like Kerry King pretended to have done in Slayer at various times (but very, very likely didn't, at least not until the 90s).

There's no reason at all to imagine this was the case for Sepultura, ever. No particular mention in the credits like "all rhythm guitars" under Max's name (the 'Arise' booklet says "rhythm guitar" for Max and "'lead guitar" for Andreas; the singular used for the term "guitar", rather than the more widely used plural "guitars", referring to the recorded parts, could either mean they had the instrument/role in mind... or just, you know, that they were still struggling with English at the time, as evidenced by the mention "Lyrical assistance and translation by" followed by two non-members' names). No such practice was ever mentioned anywhere (as far as I know). Andreas Kisser played circles and all kinds of other shapes around Max Cavalera as a musician at the time (and probably still does), so if anything, should they, for whatever reason, have decided to have all rhythm guitar parts played by only one of the two, the logical and practical choice would have been Andreas, not Max.

Last but not least, there's a reason everybody knows that Hetfield prohibits (or used to prohibit) Kirk Hammet from playing rhythm guitar parts in the studio: that's the same reason everybody knows Paul McCartney played the drums on a number of late-period Beatles tracks instead of Ringo Starr: because it's totally unusual and out there. Under normal circumstances, band members play their respective parts on the album. The drummer plays the drums, and when the band has two permanent guitar players, they both play rhythm guitars. Unless otherwise indicated.

The end.



I maintain Max was a much better rhythm player than Kisser in terms of tightness, aggression, pick dynamics, and palm-muted heaviness. Same thing with Metallica and Hetfield. In fact, for Cannibal Corpse, Pat O'Brien plays both rhythm tracks on most of the songs as well.

The way I see it, if one guitarist's rhythm is significantly superior, he should track both guitars for the sake of a sense of uniformity(look at how James and Kirk play Battery and try putting both of them together on the same recording. Even if it's 100% in time, it'll sound funny because of how much heavier and aggressive the former is compared to the latter. If both guitarist have a roughly equal skill in tracking rhythms, then you get both of them to do it to get more dynamics out of the sound(2 different guitars being used as well).
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HellthroneRising
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 2
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 3:58 am 
 

I read an interview in a metal magazine with Sepultura during the Chaos A.D. era. They discussed the gear and techniques used for recording the album and alluded to their previous two albums. According to Max and Andreas, they tracked two rhythm guitar tracks each for Beneath The Remains and Arise. This is the same way Death recorded Human under the same producer and if I know my Scott Burns productions, Max and Andreas would both have a left and right guitar track each for a thick but symmetrical sound. You can listen here how the guitar actually sounds with only one track.

Youtube: show


They credit the extra clarity on Chaos to dropping that practice and tracking one rhythm track each through a Mesa rig (TriAxis and Strategy 500), Max on the left and Andreas on the right (no doubt under the guidance of Andy Wallace). The only thing I can think of that brings the veracity of these claims into question is that is that Paulo Jr spoke of the equipment he used (and comically mentioned things like having to tape down the 5th bass string or have the engineer hold it down) when Max said later on that Paulo didn't record any bass in the studio until Roots. Besides that, it seems to check out. Make of that what you will. I've heard a number of producers speak highly of Max Cavalera's rhythm guitar sound in the studio. Sound engineers talk so it eventually becomes common knowledge who is incapable of tracking the parts they're credited with.

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Helvede
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:28 pm
Posts: 1466
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 6:28 am 
 

Is there any official source on Paulo not recording the bass parts? I know that interview where Max said it, but it was during a time those two bad mouthed each other, so might not be that reliable.

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Lightsbane
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 245
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 6:36 am 
 

I don't know much about sepultura but it is pretty common for the rhythm guitarist to play the bass part because alot of times in metal the bass just copies the guitar
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Mango_Sauce
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:46 pm
Posts: 50
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 5:33 pm 
 

HellthroneRising wrote:
According to Max and Andreas, they tracked two rhythm guitar tracks each for Beneath The Remains and Arise. This is the same way Death recorded Human under the same producer and if I know my Scott Burns productions, Max and Andreas would both have a left and right guitar track each for a thick but symmetrical sound. You can listen here how the guitar actually sounds with only one track.

For some reason that blows my mind. I always thought of guitar double tracking as one player getting two tracks on the right and the other player getting two tracks on the left.

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TrooperEd
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:18 pm
Posts: 477
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 8:45 pm 
 

Helvede wrote:
Is there any official source on Paulo not recording the bass parts? I know that interview where Max said it, but it was during a time those two bad mouthed each other, so might not be that reliable.



The Decibel Hall of Fame induction of Beneath The Remains.

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HellthroneRising
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 2
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 2:09 am 
 

Mango_Sauce wrote:
HellthroneRising wrote:
According to Max and Andreas, they tracked two rhythm guitar tracks each for Beneath The Remains and Arise. This is the same way Death recorded Human under the same producer and if I know my Scott Burns productions, Max and Andreas would both have a left and right guitar track each for a thick but symmetrical sound. You can listen here how the guitar actually sounds with only one track.

For some reason that blows my mind. I always thought of guitar double tracking as one player getting two tracks on the right and the other player getting two tracks on the left.

There are some bands that do it that way. There are all kinds of ways to arrange the rhythm tracks in a two guitarist band. For instance, Dave Mustaine will record one left and one right rhythm track and have the second guitarist do one rhythm track up the center so it's tight enough symmetry wise but doesn't exclude anybody.

The "two guitarists with one left and one right rack each" thing is quite common in Scott Burns productions and a few other producers. There are moments that give it away on BTR like each harmony line coming out of both sides of the stereo spectrum. If you listen to Flattening of Emotions by Death there's a part where Chuck plays alone (but double tracked) and then an additional two guitar tracks comes in on top with the rest of the band in contrast to the demo of that song (or live) where Chuck had one side.

Lightsbane wrote:
I don't know much about sepultura but it is pretty common for the rhythm guitarist to play the bass part because alot of times in metal the bass just copies the guitar

I hope not. Sounds like a good way to screw a lot of talented bassists out of a performing/writing credit.

Helvede wrote:
Is there any official source on Paulo not recording the bass parts? I know that interview where Max said it, but it was during a time those two bad mouthed each other, so might not be that reliable.

I'm led to believe he probably started playing on Chaos A.D. and Max was just exaggerating. On live videos where the bass is audible, he isn't having that much trouble and why would he mention about having to mute the bottom string on the 5 string bass if he didn't really record it?

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