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Conservationism
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:48 pm
Posts: 431
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:44 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
If you were serious about looking for great new bands to listen to, you wouldn't reply in such a condescending manner.


I don't need to look for great new bands. Every time -- EVERY TIME -- someone like yourself brags about how great they are, they can't name them.

It's because they don't stand up. They're crap. With a handful of exceptions. And most people are in denial of this. Why, we might ask.

They're doing no one any favors.
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Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 258714 subjects

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
Posts: 8662
Location: Québec
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:07 am 
 

You're obnoxious as fuck. Stop.
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Conservationism
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:48 pm
Posts: 431
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:12 am 
 

Metantoine wrote:
You're obnoxious as fuck. Stop.


I apologize.

I don't intend to be obnoxious.

I am more concerned with accuracy.
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AsinineUsername
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:11 pm
Posts: 101
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:32 am 
 

Conservationism wrote:
Ilwhyan wrote:

It's because they don't stand up. They're crap. With a handful of exceptions. And most people are in denial of this. Why, we might ask.



Poor distrubution, lack of label support, general obscurity etc.

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6407
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:07 am 
 

AsinineUsername wrote:
Conservationism wrote:

It's because they don't stand up. They're crap. With a handful of exceptions. And most people are in denial of this. Why, we might ask.
Poor distrubution, lack of label support, general obscurity etc.

Don't you ever mix your quotes like that again. It's very insulting to have something he wrote appearing as my quote. Anyway, he's clearly a troll, so before he's banned, just take advantage of the foe feature: it wraps the ignored person's posts in a tag that hides them from view a bit like spoilers. Very convenient!
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AsinineUsername
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:11 pm
Posts: 101
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:17 am 
 

Accident, chill the fuck out, dude.

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6407
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:26 am 
 

AsinineUsername wrote:
Accident, chill the fuck out, dude.

Well, I was trying to come across as facetious, but I guess that was lost. :|
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Civil
I'm not sexist, I have binders full of women friends!

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:58 pm
Posts: 112
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:46 pm 
 

On the subject, there are two North American bands I really liked and I think are very good. Ash Borer and the groundbreaking Weakling. I think they brought new elements to the table, and created really interesting music within the black metal format. Specially Weakling.

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HeavenDuff
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 30
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:04 am 
 

I don't know if black metal from the United States is mediocre, but we often see that kind of bad attitude toward bands that play a musical genre from another continent or maybe another "culture", and with black metal, it gets obvious that we have purists, elitists and overly nationalist people who will diss black metal that isn't made in Europe or that isn't true enough...

I don't know if that's why some people have such a low opinion of usbm, but it might be interresting to reflect on this.

Otherwise, what do you guys think of bands like Deafheaven, Bosse-De-Nage, Leviathan, Abigail Williams (focusing on their more black metal oriented albums and not the early metalcore, symphonic black/metalcore, etc.) or Infernal Stronghold?

Maybe the US doesn't have such a great bm scene, but we have an amazing bm scene in Quebec :)

Forteresse
Gris
Monarque
Miserere Luminis
Chasse-Galerie
Sombres Forêts
Neige et Noirceur

These bands are all great :)

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Civil
I'm not sexist, I have binders full of women friends!

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:58 pm
Posts: 112
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:38 am 
 

The question is not exactly if there are good black metal bands in the US. I'm sure there are. The question is more "why hasn't this genre flourished in the US as it has in Europe, where the fundamental, genre-defining bands come from with a overwhelming majority".

I believe the bands you mention are good. But the fact is that historically US Black Metal has had very little impact in the development of Black Metal music. The bands simply aren't groundbreaking like the European ones are.



HeavenDuff wrote:
I don't know if black metal from the United States is mediocre, but we often see that kind of bad attitude toward bands that play a musical genre from another continent or maybe another "culture", and with black metal, it gets obvious that we have purists, elitists and overly nationalist people who will diss black metal that isn't made in Europe or that isn't true enough...

I don't know if that's why some people have such a low opinion of usbm, but it might be interresting to reflect on this.

Otherwise, what do you guys think of bands like Deafheaven, Bosse-De-Nage, Leviathan, Abigail Williams (focusing on their more black metal oriented albums and not the early metalcore, symphonic black/metalcore, etc.) or Infernal Stronghold?

Maybe the US doesn't have such a great bm scene, but we have an amazing bm scene in Quebec :)

Forteresse
Gris
Monarque
Miserere Luminis
Chasse-Galerie
Sombres Forêts
Neige et Noirceur

These bands are all great :)

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Lord Tempestuous
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:27 pm
Posts: 93
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:34 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Don't you ever mix your quotes like that again. It's very insulting to have something he wrote appearing as my quote. Anyway, he's clearly a troll, so before he's banned, just take advantage of the foe feature: it wraps the ignored person's posts in a tag that hides them from view a bit like spoilers. Very convenient!


Not everyone who disagrees with you is a troll.
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 7528
Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:39 pm 
 

Not everyone who claims that one person is a troll thinks that everyone who disagrees with him is a troll.
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Lord Tempestuous
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:27 pm
Posts: 93
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:42 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
Not everyone who claims that one person is a troll thinks that everyone who disagrees with him is a troll.


Sure, but the point remains, he is obviously not a troll.
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Now there are no rulers, no emperors,
No givers of gold, as once there were,
When wonderful things were worked among them
And they lived in lordly magnificence.
Those powers have vanished, those pleasures, dead.
The weakest survives and the world continues, kept spinning by toil.

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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4681
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:29 pm 
 

I went ahead and browsed Lord Tempestuous' posts. All of the bands he praises are from the list of acceptable bands from the website Conservationism is from and all of his talking points are talking points from that website. They are effectively the same person.
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HideYourHole
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:28 am
Posts: 4
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:12 am 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
I went ahead and browsed Lord Tempestuous' posts. All of the bands he praises are from the list of acceptable bands from the website Conservationism is from and all of his talking points are talking points from that website. They are effectively the same person.


Metal Archives bureau of investigation. I like it.

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HeavenDuff
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:56 am 
 

Civil wrote:
The question is not exactly if there are good black metal bands in the US. I'm sure there are. The question is more "why hasn't this genre flourished in the US as it has in Europe, where the fundamental, genre-defining bands come from with a overwhelming majority".

I believe the bands you mention are good. But the fact is that historically US Black Metal has had very little impact in the development of Black Metal music. The bands simply aren't groundbreaking like the European ones are.


There might just be a very artisticaly conservative fanbase for the black metal scene. What I mean by that, is that if a band does make the sound evolve in a new way, and that the hard core of the fanbase doesn't approve of the way the genre is going, then the new band is categorized as fake, hipster or whatever...

I mean... if you want to find black metal bands from the US and who influenced the genre a lot... there a few ones I can name.

Infernal Stronghold, this band plays a mix of crust and black metal that's so creative and still keeps roots in the black metal genre enough to appeal to a lot of the fans of the genre.

Chaos Moon plays a black metal that mixes just enough depressive bm elements with very 2nd wave-ish black metal riffs and structures. They also used to mix funeral doom with black metal in their early days.

Agalloch. Yes, Agalloch. One of these bands that is often regarded by the most conservative members of the black metal fanbase as some kind of hipster wannabe black metal band. Thes guys have managed to play black metal in a new flavor. They started as a very Bertatt's Ulver-ish black metal band, and incorporated elements of post-rock in their music. Slowly, more doomish elements, and gothic rock entered in the mix, and then some drone doom, etc...

I feel Agalloch is one of these bands that should be regarded as innovative to the black metal scene. These guys have influenced the scene enough for bands like Gallowbraid or Fen to be born. Along with bands like Alcest, Agalloch have helped another branch to grow on the black metal tree. But like I said, I think there is a very conservative core to the black metal scene. People who will argue that if you do not fit one or a few specific criteria, you cannot be a black metal band. Or maybe that you are somekind of watered-down amateur wannabe black metal band and that you should be regarded as fake.

Either that, or it takes time for bands to get a place in the classics and influential bm bands, at least in the eyes of the bm fans.

What do you think?

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Civil
I'm not sexist, I have binders full of women friends!

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:58 pm
Posts: 112
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:56 am 
 

I think your overall point is that there is very good, creative Black Metal made in the US, and that it doesn't get the recognition it deserves. And I do believe you. The US has produced the majority of the important metal bands in all genres, except in Black Metal, so it's no surprise that there are very good BM bands there.

I think metal fans are very conservative and obsessed with keeping things within a certain genre or another. I have been listening to extreme metal for about 24 years now and I saw the old thrashers not understanding/accepting the 2 wave Black Metal bands, and I also saw the Black Metal fans not accepting anything else besides Black Metal, as the genre grew and spread through Europe and achieved success. So surely, Metal fans are very conservative and many do not appreciate changes.

I am checking Agalloch right now and it seems like a very good band.

But having said that, Black Metal has been around for around 30 years now, and even the Scandinavian bands have been around for 23, 24 years. That's a long time, and the history of the genre is already - to a large degree - written, the important and influential bands are veterans now, and a clear pattern is there for us to see. For reasons I haven't figured out yet, the US has not produced many bands which defined the paths the genre has followed. The vast, overwhelming majority of influential bands, that actually shaped the genre and spawned ways of composing, writing music, come from Europe. The fundamental albums of Black Metal are undeniably European. History remembers and will remember, as the "big ones" of Black Metal names such as Venom, Bathory, early Sodom, Celtic Frost, Darkthrone, Mayhem, Burzum, etc. Those are the heavy players of the genre, they have dealt the cards most of the bands in the genre deal with.

Of course the US had a very important role. Bands like Slayer and Possessed also are a part of the history of Black Metal and were hugely influential for the genre. But history still shows us that if there is a "big 4" of Black Metal that we have to choose from, it will surely be composed of a selection of bands from Europe.

I think the most interesting question is not so much if there are or there aren't very good Black Metal bands on the US, but more why hasn't this genre flourished there like it did in Europe?

This is a good historical question that deserves some research. Thrash metal undeniable grew and became something in the US, the big 4 is of American bands after all, and the thrash movement was always thriving in scenes around the country. Death Metal has always had strong scenes in the USA, with many of the defining, groundbreaking bands coming from there. But the other extreme genre that grew parallel to Death Metal, Black Metal, has a timid representation in the US, and it's hard for us to think of any bands that are undeniable big players of this genre which come from the US. I'm sure that this question allows for a very interesting research.

Agalloch sounds very good indeed! I am enjoying it very much. I consider myself quite well informed on metal and most extreme metal, but I had never listened to the bands you recommended above. Surely they are hidden gems, but my question remains: why are they hidden and why the historically important bands of this genre do not come from the USA? Is it the culture there? Is it the Christianity? Is there something about European culture that invites Black Metal songwriting? Why do the classic albums come from there? Something to think about.

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 7528
Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:18 am 
 

Agalloch are extremely popular. They have about five times the number of listeners on last.fm that Possessed do. They have more listeners than Darkthrone.
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HeavenDuff
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 30
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:54 am 
 

Civil wrote:
Stuff


I didn't mean to say that metal fans have limited tastes or had conservative tastes and didn't wish to explore, but rather that some fans will have a conservative approach to the newer sub-genres of a genre they like in the metal scene. And black metal fans might just be some of the most conservatives on that behalf. It's not so much that they hate bands like Agalloch or Deafheaven (even if that's sometimes the case), but sometimes they reject the idea that these bands really belong to the black metal scene. If you are familiar with the black metal scene, than you have to be familiar with expressions like "true norwegian black metal" or just "true black metal".

To be an influential band for a genre, you need to have enough elements of the said genre, so this means taking from bands who were there before you, emulating their sound, song-writting, etc. But you also need to be unique, have groundbreaking song-writting and take the genre elsewhere.

My question is, how do you take a genre like black metal further? You can be a band like Agalloch and mix elements of the genre with progressive, post-rock, drone, doom elements... and risk being called a "fake" black metal band, in which case you won't be considered as an influential and avant-gardist band for the genre. Or you can be like Deafheaven or Alcest (from France) and be considered like hipsters and posers for not remaining "true" enough to the genre.

I also do not think that because a genre has been around for 30 years or so, that there cannot be new innovative and influential bands to re-imagine the genre. In my humble opinion, usbm is very interresting, and there are great and innovative bands that were born in the US and who are, or will mark milestones of black metal.


iamntbatman wrote:
Agalloch are extremely popular. They have about five times the number of listeners on last.fm that Possessed do. They have more listeners than Darkthrone.


This also seems to be a matter to some bm fans. They see Agalloch as a band who appeals too much to metal newbies or even non-metal fans, and/or who commercialize bm and produce a watered-down, unagressive, pop pseudo-bm. Of course I disagree with that, but usbm might have an hard time making a name for itself because of such attitude toward bands who do not fit the criteria of the 2nd or even the 1st wave of bm.

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cultofkraken
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:18 am
Posts: 1236
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:03 am 
 

There is nothing wrong with Agalloch and I too would consider their music to be closely tied to black metal although I wouldn't classify it as such. Is it hipster to say I was into Agalloch before it was cool? because I was. :D
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Civil
I'm not sexist, I have binders full of women friends!

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:58 pm
Posts: 112
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:52 am 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
Agalloch are extremely popular. They have about five times the number of listeners on last.fm that Possessed do. They have more listeners than Darkthrone.


Well, that hasn't translated in the same historical importance that Possessed and Darkthrone have, has it? Those bands are cornerstones of their genres. Synonymous with Death and Black Metal even (both of them very important for Black and Death Metal) I really don't believe Agalloch is on the same league/level.

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 7528
Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:24 pm 
 

There have been a number of bands taking clear cues from them, as well as a handful of clone bands already (Falloch, Gallowbraid). They're also a much younger band. Given time I don't doubt that they'll remain important and influential.
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