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ChaosGoatKills
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:38 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Los Osos, California
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 3:02 am 
 

Gypaetus wrote:
God damn it, I was hoping this thread would be about some cool occult-style mythology I could read about while listening to some nice cavernous death metal. I don't believe any of it but it's fun to read, and it makes you think of some cool imagery. It's the same reason I like looking at creepy artwork, reading spooky stories, and checking out old, abandoned, 'haunted' buildings.

Instead I get someone who thinks the earth might be flat, people trying to say that spirituality and belief in a religion are exceedingly different (they're not!), and... just... Drterror, seriously, what on EARTH are you babbling about. You're a textbook example of why people that don't believe in anything spiritual end up thinking that most that do are complete idiots. :durr: Think about what you're actually saying here. I get the points you're trying to make (kind of, maybe), but the way you've made that point... I can't even find the words. I quite like debating this sort of thing, but the crap you've been spouting has actually caused me to just stare blankly at the computer screen for a while. You've rendered me speechless, so congratulations I suppose?

Yeah, I'm kind of past the point of giving a shit about this thread any more. The first page had some great feedback, but all of the atheist banter and Drterror's flat earth theories have made me lose a bit of faith in humanity. If folks want to continue to use this thread to argue, that's fine. I'm out.

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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:36 am
Posts: 1966
Location: Panopticon
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 5:55 am 
 

drterror666 wrote:
Well, what you believe and what I beleive are two different things and neither of us can prove each other right or wrong.


Are you hinting at the philosophy of Relativism in your posts :???: (I've been reading about Zhuang Zhou)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativism

Quote:
Relativistic themes have also spilled over into areas outside of philosophy; for example, they play a large role in today's "culture wars." Some strains of ethical relativism even pose threats to our standards and practices of evaluation and, through this, to many of our social and legal institutions. And the suggestion that truth or justification are somehow relative would, if correct, have a dramatic impact on the most fundamental issues about objectivity, knowledge, and intellectual progress

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/relativism/

Quote:
Another argument against relativism posits a Natural Law. Simply put, the physical universe works under basic principles: the "Laws of Nature". Some contend that a natural Moral Law may also exist, for example as argued by Richard Dawkins and addressed by C. S. Lewis in "Mere Christianity". Dawkins said "I think we face an equal but much more sinister challenge from the left, in the shape of cultural relativism - the view that scientific truth is only one kind of truth and it is not to be especially privileged"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativism

Cultural relativism - I term I haven't heard before, but which fits how I've seen Britain changing, Europe even.

Quote:
The problem is thus to formulate a statement of human rights that will do more than phrase respect for the individual as individual. It must also take into full account the individual as a member of a social group of which he is part, whose sanctioned modes of life shape his behavior, and with whose fate his own is thus inextricably bound

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_relativism

This gives a good hint to explaining how the European court operates.
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drterror666
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:49 pm
Posts: 69
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 7:00 am 
 

I just knew that flat Earth stuff would get me flamed and crucified. I was just trying to make the point that we can't even prove that we exist, let alone accept anything else that we take for granted. It's a philosophical conundrum.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I believe the world is a sphere.

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drterror666
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:49 pm
Posts: 69
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 8:08 am 
 

Napero wrote:
drterror666 wrote:
Can you prove 100% that the Earth is not flat? That may sound silly, but it's not. You can't even prove you exist, let alone that the Earth is a globe. Seriously, the only thing that we do know is that we know nothing.

You're doing rather well in your unavoidable death spiral towards solipsism.


Solipsistic? I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I was trying to get people thinking, really. How am I supposed to have a good argument if I feel I'm already right? I've already said that I don't preach to anyone.

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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
Posts: 2111
Location: At the bottom of the lake
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:33 pm 
 

drterror666 wrote:
I was just trying to make the point that we can't even prove that we exist

How does a thing impact another thing ( :durr: ) if either or both are unreal?

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Young_Metalhead
Saanut kerran. Todistetusti.

Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:17 pm
Posts: 1524
Location: México, DF
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:51 pm 
 

drterror666 wrote:
I'm not talking about energies that are explainable by physics, although particle physics is getting interesting these days. There is an energy in the universe that connects us all. I would argue that this energy goes beyond our universe. Still, I'm not going to get into my beliefs too much, because you're obviously a traditionalist who believes in science and nothing more.

Believes in science? Now it's personal.
First, the OP says it's for knowledge seekers. You want knowledge? I mean, real knowledge? go for the science: Physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics...
There are only energies explained by physics, everything else lies within your mind.

You can dig into the occult, the obscure and the evil, but still that is nothing more than human perception of reality. A sense for our existence, you ask? Like any other species: we want to survive.

ChaosGoatKills wrote:
Yeah, I'm kind of past the point of giving a shit about this thread any more. The first page had some great feedback, but all of the atheist banter and Drterror's flat earth theories have made me lose a bit of faith in humanity. If folks want to continue to use this thread to argue, that's fine. I'm out.

Sorry to spoil the fun mate. Better join a community where you know for sure they share your beliefs. I mean, since when are metal fans also fans of the occult???
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drterror666
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:49 pm
Posts: 69
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 6:14 am 
 

Well, as someone once said to me, when you go to the zoo, you don't get in with the lions. That's what I did on here. Not going to make that mistake again. I've never had the misfortune to write in a forum of so many close minded people before.

No wonder this planet is going to the dogs...

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drterror666
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:49 pm
Posts: 69
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 6:15 am 
 

Young_Metalhead wrote:
I mean, since when are metal fans also fans of the occult???


You're joking, right?

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henkkjelle
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 3136
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 6:47 am 
 

drterror666 wrote:
Well, as someone once said to me, when you go to the zoo, you don't get in with the lions. That's what I did on here. Not going to make that mistake again. I've never had the misfortune to write in a forum of so many close minded people before.

No wonder this planet is going to the dogs...


Yeah, it's a shame how most people here embrace empirical evidence and science. Wouldn't we all be better off and wouldn't the world be a better place if we just all believed what we want to believe? And let's also treat all world views the same! Because we wouldn't want to hurt anyones feelings now would we?
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BaloroftheEvilEye
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
Posts: 1623
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 6:52 am 
 

Young_Metalhead wrote:
since when are metal fans also fans of the occult???


Probably quite a lot, but most out-grow it in their late teens and leave it behind as an embarrassing chapter in their life.

Where's that guy gone, the one who claimed all ancient cultures had the same magic beliefs, and that every corporation abuses it to keep their businesses growing strong? That was some funny shit. You'd have thought they'd have used this powerful magic to stop their banks from collapsing.

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 7670
Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 10:28 am 
 

drterror666 wrote:
Well, as someone once said to me, when you go to the zoo, you don't get in with the lions. That's what I did on here. Not going to make that mistake again. I've never had the misfortune to write in a forum of so many close minded people before.

No wonder this planet is going to the dogs...


If there's one thing I love about this community, it's that you can *always* count on people who get attacked for this sort of thing to pull the "closed-minded elitists" card. It's a classic!
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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
Posts: 2111
Location: At the bottom of the lake
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:32 pm 
 

^ Right .. particularly when the person saying it hasn't opened their mind to the presented alternative arguments at all. "Ok, so everything I said got shot down, and I scuttled a couple of things I said because I couldn't back it up, but you're all sucky stump-heads." My favorite was the "trying to get people to think" part, since CLEARLY [mechanism] is a default and passive position requiring zero thought or investigation.

If only more people believed in bullshit, THEN humanity would return to its glory days.

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Acidgobblin
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:56 pm
Posts: 2234
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 9:47 pm 
 

Easily one of the worst threads on MA.
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drterror666
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:49 pm
Posts: 69
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:51 am 
 

Well, you've obviously made your minds up. I can't believe I'm being made out to be some sort of nutjob who may as well start a cult!

What do you make of this then. I have a friend who is a respected surgeon. He's always telling me that his patients tell him that they 'leave their bodies' when they're under. OK, I can believe that this is some kind of anasthetic mind trip, but for one story that he told me. He said one of his patients told him that she'd 'floated' around the hospital, outside the back of the hospital and up a building. Usual stuff so far, but she said she saw an elephant in the window. The surgeon thought this would be a good idea to see what was going on. He went to the back of the hospital and could see the buildings across the way. Imagine his shock whan he saw, in one of the windows, an elephant figurine. He was so shocked, he went over to the building, which was the dorms for the nurses and doctors, and found the room. There he actually picked up the elephant figurine.

So how did that happen? He said there was no way the patient could have been near the dorms or gone to that part of the hospital, due to being frail and nearly immobile. I have no explanation for this, but I'm sure some of you clever buggers will.

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Napero
GedankenPanzer

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
Posts: 8511
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:05 am 
 

I read somewhere that a couple of hospitals have hidden messages or symbols in their operating theaters, placed so that you can't usually see them, but can avoid spotting if you're actually "floating above near the ceiling watching yourself being operated on and then being, like, clinically totally dead and shit", as the usual schtick goes. So far, no hits, I think.

It's usually a lucky guess, a pure coincidence (someone probably has an elephant figurine in any hospital with 1000 beds), observation bias (the same surgeon had not found the four-armed alien, the broomstick, a coat of arms with a winged tiger, a musket on the wall, a Moroccan flag and the horned skull he had been searching after the earlier hints, but finally finding an "elephant" was suddenly newsworthy...) or, most likely in this case, pure memory of a casual observation the person could not even consciously recall. The thing in your story was observable from the yard, so there's nothing mystical about this. It could have been sitting on the window sill for years for all we know. So, no evidence of magic or Jesus there, either.
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henkkjelle
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 3136
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:10 am 
 

I'm sure there is a correct term for this, but that just sounds like random chance. I'm sure there were lots of other things outside of the hospital. Cars in different colors, different kind of people, etc etc. She could have described lots of things and some of those things could have been outside/inside the hospital at that time. It's just chance, nothing more.

Napero beat me to it. :-D
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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
Posts: 2111
Location: At the bottom of the lake
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:42 pm 
 

And besides, since her brain wasn't hooked up to any recording equipment there can't even be a stab at its patterns. It's a curious story, but not evidence and certainly not enough to base a belief system on. Did she describe the elephant? or will any elephant do?

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FearTheNome
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 8:41 am
Posts: 372
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:13 pm 
 

DrTerror.. you make a bunch of silly claims, people explain why oyu're wrong, and now you're coming back with "a friend of a friend had this weird thing happen" anecdotes? Come on.

Doctors have next to no training in science, so an unsourced anecdote from "a respected surgeon" rates about as high as an unsourced anecdote from your mother or your neighbor. And as another poster pointed out, even if the story really happened, the individual could have seen the figurine in the window.


I can find all kind of claims about spooky things happening on the net. It's really not very good evidence for anything. After all, we know that eyewitness testimony is extremely unreliable.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9618
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:55 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
I'm sure there is a correct term for this

Confirmation bias. Aka remembering the hits, forgetting the misses. ;)
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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baron samedi
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 11:26 pm
Posts: 56
Location: Kyoto, Japan
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:58 am 
 

baron samedi wrote:
it's good for the digestive system!

Wait nevermind thats yakult

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drterror666
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:49 pm
Posts: 69
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 4:31 am 
 

FearTheNome wrote:
DrTerror.. you make a bunch of silly claims, people explain why oyu're wrong, and now you're coming back with "a friend of a friend had this weird thing happen" anecdotes? Come on.


Yes, I used a friend because if I went into my own experiences, I'd probably be shot down in flames. With a very big gun!

I'd just like to say that, as much as you'll find this hard to believe, I am a sceptic. There are all sorts of weird things out there where I think you've got to be kidding me, but every now and then something comes up that makes me interested. I do have my head in the real world, but I also like to keep an open mind about other possibilities. It's difficult to get stuff across on a forum without being made to look a twat sometimes, as has been evidenced here. I'm not here to convert anyone or make people think the way I do; that would be stupid.

It's like I said before as an example, the space outside our universe must be infinite, but that can't be right, but if it isn't right what other explanation is there? It's stuff like this that gets me thinking and realising that there are some phenomena that cannot be explained by science as it stands in the present. I'm sure we'll get to a time when science will explain just about everything, but I expect there will always be questions from answers.

At least I can take part of the credit for one of the, as someone mentioned, worst threads on this forum, though! :D

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henkkjelle
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 3136
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:57 am 
 

I'm curious about you stance on déjà vu's. I'm sure you had plenty of them in your life time, I have had plently of them myself. When I was younger (about 11/12) I was facinated by them. I would always come up with explanations like time travel, reincarnation, different universes, etc etc. Now I know it has something to do with the brain. It it seems like a déjà vu is caused by a short circuit of the brain. Something about the brain remembering the situation you're in before you even become aware of the situation, thus causing you to think you've already been in the exact same situation before. Here you have it, a weird "phenomenon" that has been explained by science. I'm pretty sure that those weird things you are talking about are perfectly explainable. Just like the elephant thing we solved for you.
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SadisticGratification
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:00 pm
Posts: 406
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:20 am 
 

FearTheNome wrote:
Doctors have next to no training in science


Wait what? Biology happens to be their thing actually, while the rest of what you said is true this deserves to be called out. When training as a doctor(well here in Ireland anyway and I suspect in the UK too) you have to take courses in physics, chemistry and biology in your early years. And to add to that medicine itself is really just chemistry and biology combined. To say a doctor has little to no scientific training is pretty foolish. Medicine IS science.

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Napero
GedankenPanzer

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
Posts: 8511
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:24 am 
 

Medicine has a scientific side, yes, but the basic work of a doctor is very far from empirical science. The training they get is focused on application, not research. That's what I assumed he meant, at least.
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SadisticGratification
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:00 pm
Posts: 406
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:45 am 
 

I guess as a general practitioner yes they would just saw you have ass sores take this cream three times a day and your ass sores will clear up. But a specialised doctor such as surgeon would have to do a lot of research, a lot of doctors work on diseases that have very little known about them so they explore treatment options based on the physiology of the disease. For example I have Crohn's disease, there is no known cure and there is no known reason why you get it. There is a vague perception that it has a genetic component(my uncle has it) and smokers are more likely to get it(I smoked up until my diagnosis). I'm on a drug now that until about 7 years ago was never used to treat Crohn's disease and it's pretty good at what it does, this drug was already on the market but for other diseases. Also a lot of doctors are pursuing parasitic based treatments for the disease along with stem cell treatments. Your local GP may not be involved with research but there's a huge chance the doctor at the nearest big hospital is working with a University on cancer research(I know my hospital is) and other treatments. Sorry to derail the thread but doctors are scientists working in research environments alongside biochemists etc... hell even physics and computer science have medicinal values to them.

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 7670
Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:57 pm 
 

Things like that only really begin to involve medical doctors once they've a) been in R&D long enough to be worth taking to trial and b) through enough non-human trials to convince both the people developing the medicine or procedure that it's effective and to please the FDA. Maybe there are some MD's consulting or whatever along the way but in the vast majority of cases medical research isn't conducted by medical doctors but rather by geneticists, biochemists, etc.
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drterror666
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:49 pm
Posts: 69
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 7:00 am 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
It it seems like a déjà vu is caused by a short circuit of the brain. Something about the brain remembering the situation you're in before you even become aware of the situation, thus causing you to think you've already been in the exact same situation before. Here you have it, a weird "phenomenon" that has been explained by science. I'm pretty sure that those weird things you are talking about are perfectly explainable. Just like the elephant thing we solved for you.


I completely agree with you about déjà vu. It is completely explainable, as you have said. I'm not going to argue with you over the elephant thing, because that too can be explained in other ways.

Still, doesn't hurt to keep an open mind about these things...

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9618
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 1:20 am 
 

Sorry to post in memes, but this is appropriate:

Image
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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Obfuscation
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:52 am
Posts: 58
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 1:24 am 
 

:D Storm is a really great video.

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SadisticGratification
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:00 pm
Posts: 406
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 2:28 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Sorry to post in memes, but this is appropriate:

Image


This is very apt, remember a couple of thousand years ago a certain mathematically literate society believed that the sun was a god, now we know it's actually a solar body of mostly hydrogen and a heavy metal core. There is no paranormal, only the explained and unexplained that sometime in the future will be the explained. Remember we know very little about our brains and how they work, neuroscience is still relatively young. Also I remember watching a documentary (can't recall the name for the life of me) and it explained that in places where paranormal activity was recorded there was unusual electromagnetic energy that could feasibly interfere with our brain functions, think about it we wouldn't question our broadband router acting up if there was electromagnetic energy interfering with it so why not our brains? also eye witness testimony is very sketchy at best and outright false at worst. Suppose two people were in a creepy place and one person "saw" something and said to the other person 'did you see that ghostly apparition?' they would likely and subconsciously corroborate each other's account and further cement the falsity of their account. This without neither of them trying to lie really but in fact believing everything they saw. Everyone knows that person who saw aliens and ghosts etc... people like that are exposed to that activity because they want to be whether subconsciously or not and it follows them because they want to see it. I've never seen a ghost or anything paranormal and when something weird happens I just brush it off as explainable.

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drterror666
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:49 pm
Posts: 69
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:07 am 
 

SadisticGratification wrote:
Suppose two people were in a creepy place and one person "saw" something and said to the other person 'did you see that ghostly apparition?' they would likely and subconsciously corroborate each other's account and further cement the falsity of their account. This without neither of them trying to lie really but in fact believing everything they saw.


OK, I'll bite on this one and duck under all the flak I get from the hardcore science squad on here.

After my father in law died, some strange shit happened in our house. One of these things was an 'orb'. I was sitting up on the bed with my wife, when I saw this small, fuzzy, orb thing float up from one side of the bed and then float back down and disappear behind the bottom of the bed. I never said a thing to my wife, but she asked me if I just saw something at the bottom of the bed. I asked her what she thought she saw and she told me it was a fuzzy orb and traced the path it took, which was identiical to what I had seen.

There was no hint of suggestion and confirmation, nothing. OK, so it may have been explainable by some other means, but I sure as hell have never seen anything like that in my life.

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