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mogila
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Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:30 am
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Location: Russia
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:20 am 
 

a question about black holes, there density is infinite, also we know nothing can escape them, so what's the escape velocity of a black hole, is it possible if you travel fast enough you can escape a black hole or do you need to be travelling at an infinite speed, additionally how fast do things get sucked into black holes? does it depend on the mass of the object? any help is appreciated

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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:53 am 
 

Well, there's this threshold surround black holes called the event horizon, after which point the escape velocity required exceeds the speed of light. (although as far as I know, it has more to do with the singularity currving spacetime in such a way that every path an object could possibly take would lead to the black hole) Which makes it impossible for pretty much anything to escape (even information). Before that threshold, things can escape, it's just a question of speed/energy. After the horizon, "travelling fast enough" loses it's meaning, since we're not talking about something like the sound barrier here. Light speed is a very real, very final limit, for "conventional" travel at least.

Gravitational acceleration is not influenced by mass (of the much lighter object). A feather drops just as fast in a vacuum as a lead ball does. What the actual value is for black holes I don't know, but I assume it depends on the mass of the singularity.

(I'm not a physicist, take with grain of salt, I'm sure that's a very simplified and probably flawed explanation)
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mogila
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 9:34 am 
 

yes I know light speed is the fastest we can travel (although some think it may be possible to travel faster now) but hypothetically speaking, if we could travel faster, would that mean you could escape a black hole? So the speed at which something gets sucked into a black hole is determined by the mass itself?

When you see something get sucked into a black hole why does it appear to move slower as it heads towards the event horizon? What does it mean by a black hole having infinite density?

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:46 am 
 

Read some of Hawking's popular works and maybe you'll understand why your question can not really be "answered" in a way that makes any sense. It's kinda like asking if a pear could be an orange if it was an apple. The concept of the light speed limit is essential to the concept of a black hole. Mass which approaches light speed actually grows and approaches infinity as it approaches light speed, which results in the energy necessary to break that barrier to be infinite as well, which is the exact reason why nothing can escape a black hole. If mass grew only proportionally to speed, and did not approach infinity at a certain point, light would move at infinite speed, light speed would not be a thing and black holes would not exist.

mogila wrote:
density is infinite

Do black holes have infinite density though? According to that logic it would have to have zero volume or infinite mass. If I'm not mistaken, mass can't really have zero volume (except if you say that quantum particles have zero volume in which case nothing in the universe has any volume) and infinite mass would mean infinite gravity and the annihilation of the universe, which did not happen as far as I know.
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Last edited by inhumanist on Tue May 07, 2013 11:12 am, edited 4 times in total.
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:01 am 
 

^ that's interesting because I was reading a question someone posed to an expert, he asked if black holes wouldn't someday join up, due to their gravitational pull and then somehow create a singularity event - he was told no because everything is moving away (and accelerating), and everything will eventually be isolated.

I keep thinking of black holes as holes but they're actually spheres, we call them black "holes" because they aren't detectable like planets and stars are, only by the way objects behave near to them, if I read that correctly?
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:18 am 
 

mindshadow wrote:
^ that's interesting because I was reading a question someone posed to an expert, he asked if black holes wouldn't someday join up, due to their gravitational pull and then somehow create a singularity event - he was told no because everything is moving away (and accelerating), and everything will eventually be isolated.

That's only part of the truth and somewhat incorrect. I understand that galaxies usually have a supermassive black hole at the center, and it is correct that galaxies at large move away from each other, as that is the overall trend of entropy, that the density of the mass in the universe decreases. BUT entropy is a trend and there can be exceptions (for example, gravity can pull objects together). In fact, our galaxy is about to collide with another galaxy (in the very distant future), which means that the supermassive black holes at their center could hypothetically collide by chance. Very unlikely but possible.

Edit: I guess I misunderstood you. You were talking about ALL black holes, in which case the professor is correct (how surprising, an expert knowing things that are correct)...
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:23 am 
 

^ You are quite correct, I read that also, but while black holes may at times join to create even larger ones, (and some of the stars are flung out as their galaxies collide) they will never be a scenerio where all that it left is massive black holes roaming an empty vastness, slowly drawing together due to their enormous gravitational pull, according to Chris North.
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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:38 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
mogila wrote:
density is infinite

Do black holes have infinite density though? According to that logic it would have to have zero volume or infinite mass. If I'm not mistaken, mass can't really have zero volume (except if you say that quantum particles have zero volume in which case nothing in the universe has any volume) and infinite mass would mean infinite gravity and the annihilation of the universe, which did not happen as far as I know.

Well, that's what defines a singularity, isn't it? Finite mass in zero volume. Where the laws of physics as currently understood break down. Isn't that part of what people are trying to figure out in combining general relativity with quantum mechanics (quantum gravity)? I'm not really sure how far we've come in understanding of what's really going on "inside" black holes, only what they're doing to the rest of spacetime. Provided there's understanding at all.

@mogila: inhumanist's analogy is pretty apt. These things are connected and interdependent. An event horizon, not to mention many or probably all of the properties of a black hole itself, is defined by the speed of light, one of the known physical constants. If you say we were to go faster than that, then you're changing the universe along with it and the whole thought experiment becomes meaningless.
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mogila
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:40 pm 
 

Thanks for the help so far, so how come as an object approaches the event horizon it appears to move slower? I understand when it reaches the event horizon why the redshift effect occurs. I'm assuming its the strong gravitational pull of the black hole distorting the light?

This goes back to my early question: is the speed of the light getting slowed down as it gets pulled in and the speed at which it gets sucked in can be determined by the mass?

"The atoms in your right hand probably came from a different star than the atoms in your left hand." This is because the level of energy in the universe is constant right?

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 5:09 am 
 

The redshift effect has the same reason as why objects appear to move slower as they approach the event horizon. See, the gravity, which means warped spacetime, results in the object moving slower through time, which means that a minute for the object itself can be a year for an observer who's not subjected to extreme gravity. That means an object taking one minute to move one meter closer to the event horizon takes one year from the perspective of an outside observer to travel that distance. And since it's now closer to the black hole the effect becomes stronger: Now one minute for the object could be 10 years to an outside observer. At the event horizon time stands still, which translates to infinite time for the observer, which means the observer never sees the object get to that point, only that it gets slower and slower.

The redshift effect occurs because light that has a certain frequency (lightwaves per minute) inside the strong gravitational field have a lower frequency to an outside observer (less lightwaves per minute) due to the time-warping-effect described above.

The speed of light is actually the same for every observer, which is the basis of the theory of relativity. Only its frequency can change, its speed cannot, even relatively. Everything is relative (space, time) except the speed of light. You'll observe it as 299,792,458 metres per second relative to yourself, no matter what.
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Metantoine wrote:
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wrathchild_88
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 6:56 am 
 

Erm, I thought that when objects go towards an event horizon they redshift because they are moving faster and faster as they accelerate towards a body of infinite mass. The object would blueshift (or the redshift would become less pronounced) to an observer if the object was slowing down. And an observer from the outside would be able to see that acceleration. As a body accelerates towards the event horizon the body's time becomes infinitely slow and their mass becomes infinitely large as they accelerate towards the speed of light.

Edit: of course they never get that close to the speed of light or infinite mass, but you see what I'm getting at. You wouldn't look like you were slowing down falling into a black hole.

I thought that was how it worked anyway...
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 8:06 am 
 

An observer from the outside does not see an acceleration, no. For them the object is definitely slowing down until it comes to a halt. Yet they perceive a redshift due to what I described. The only perspective in which the object accelerates is that of the object itself, because it can't perceive the slowing down of its own time, it could only perceive the world outside the gravity field becoming faster (and shifting to blue).

Think about it: If you perceive an object as slowed down in the sense of time-relativity, regardless of the direction it is moving, you must also perceive that the wavelengths it sends become longer (redshift), because that is the equivalent of slowing down when we talk about light (which can't slow down): a decrease in frequency. Only if it is moving towards you it produces a counteracting blueshift.

Not acceleration but speed is proportional to the redshift or blueshift, but so is time-relativity, which is what's relevant in this case.
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Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
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wrathchild_88
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:29 am 
 

I see. When I was trying to imagine it, all I was thinking of that video of the stars orbiting the center of the galaxy that are clearly moving faster the closer they get, but I guess they're still not even that close to the black hole and relativistic effects don't come in to play yet. At least not enough to clearly see time dilation, which I had backwards. I feel silly for thinking that time would seem slow down for the falling body. D'oh! Of course time is different for every different observer but is always constant for the individual. The things you forget...
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mogila
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:36 am 
 

So time stops completely when you reach the event horizon? Why? Which means that time is infinite in some parts of the galaxy and finite and others???

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:06 am 
 

Actually, according to this theory, nothing ever reaches the event horizon, because outside of the strong gravitational field literally an eternity would have to elapse for that to happen. According to this, matter is only accumulated at the event horizon without ever touching it, but I'm merely speculating here based on what I know. I think this is where quantum effects have to be considered, and the theory of relativity does not satisfactorily describe what happens.

Inside the event horizon, time is standing still, yes. I think we've yet to figure out what exactly that means/implies. According to my understanding a black hole is literally a hole in the space-time continuum, meaning the universe really "ends" there, which is why it's impossible to pass the event horizon. It would be like leaving spacetime.

Or, maybe better than a hole is imagining that, despite having a certain size and presumed volume when observed from the outside, the space inside the event horizon is exactly zero cubic meters, just like the time that can elapse inside it is exactly zero seconds. Spacetime is bent around a region that does not exist.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:36 am
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:29 pm 
 

Both someone entering an event horizon and a far away observer will still see their watch ticking round as normal, but for the outside observer the person at the singularity will appear to never actually to enter it, they would have to wait billions of years to see them move one inch! For the person crossing over everything in the universe would appear to speed up infinitely fast - though they'd be crushed first of course.

Time acts relative to the speed your travelling in space (Doctor Who's TARDIS springs to mind!) and also in regions of intensely high gravitational pull as I understand it, hope that's right, we need an expert here!
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mogila
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 9:39 am 
 

The energy in the universe is constant?

Don't black holes "evaporate" after a certain period of time?

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:04 am 
 

Yeah, black holes evaporate. According to Hawking this is due to quantum fluctuations interacting with the event horizon, which does not violate energy conservation at all, but I'd have trouble explaining the process.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 6:41 pm 
 

So, this happened:

:)
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Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
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Grave_Wyrm
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Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
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Location: In the Open Sea
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:37 pm 
 

Thoughts?

Scientists may have found warp speed loophole?

Though the description reminds me more of Futurama than Star Trek.

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shouvince
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 10:39 am 
 

I came across this link which says that on May 31st, an asteroid will fly close to earth. Maybe not that close to earth since they say it'll be closest at a distance which is 15times the distance between the earth and the moon.

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/sci ... 8201.story

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Under_Starmere
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:09 pm 
 

Neat! :)

http://io9.com/if-earth-had-a-ring-like ... -508750253
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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:08 am 
 

^ :) Indeed!

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analog_winter
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:48 pm 
 

Very cool illustrations there!
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:11 pm 
 

What is this? Some kind of movie universe where mutated microbes eat space stations?
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

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hunglikemouse
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Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:25 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:00 am 
 

My old classmate is heading to space!!
So proud...and with that homophone for a last name she is destined.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Meir

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analog_winter
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:47 am 
 

I figured this might be a good place to ask this, does anyone have any good recommendations for books on astronomy/astrophysics/cosmology? I'm looking for some stuff to read this summer, and I'd like to find some stuff on those topics. Thanks
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oneyoudontknow
Cum insantientibus furere necesse est.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:18 pm 
 

http://mars.nasa.gov/multimedia/interactives/billionpixel/?image=PIA16918&view=cyl
A gigapixel image from planet Mars... done by Curiousity.
Still without Martians though. Bloody buggers. They are still in hiding.

edit:
the version without Silverlight and Flash can be found here:
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA16918
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wrathchild_88
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:09 am 
 

analog_winter wrote:
I figured this might be a good place to ask this, does anyone have any good recommendations for books on astronomy/astrophysics/cosmology? I'm looking for some stuff to read this summer, and I'd like to find some stuff on those topics. Thanks

I would also like to find some more good books like this. I got a load of ebooks from a friend a while back and found a few that were decent reads, but they're the obvious ones. I don't know who to search for out of the thousands of books.
I've read "A Brief History of Time" and "The Grand Design" by Stephen Hawking
"Death by Black Hole and other Cosmic Quandaries" by Neil de Grasse Tyson
"Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark" and "Pale Blue Dot" by Carl Sagan. I'm yet to read "Contact" and "Cosmos" because I've seen the movie and documentary series that was based on them.

They were all pretty good reads, although "Demon Haunted World" was less an astrophysics book, more of a scientific-advocacy book. An excellent read though.
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HellBlazer
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:16 am 
 

Pretty cool: three potentially rocky planets were found in the habitable zone around the star Gliese 667C, 22 light-years away:
http://www.space.com/21706-habitable-al ... -667c.html

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oneyoudontknow
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:39 am 
 

Spoiler: show
Image

Quote:
These two images show a section of the sun as seen by NASA's Interface Region Imaging Spectrograph, or IRIS, on the right and NASA's SDO on the left. The IRIS image provides scientists with unprecedented detail of the lowest parts of the sun's atmosphere, known as the interface region.

http://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/iris-telescope-first-glimpse-of-suns-mysterious-atmosphere/
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:03 pm 
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23779294

I just read this article on ESA's upcoming Gaia space telescope mission to be lauched in November... Holy shit, it blows my mind. This is going to bring amounts of new knowledge we can't even imagine yet! Read the article, very fucking recommended!
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niix
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:39 pm 
 

please forgive the lack of grammar and sense-
this post does have a thing or two to do with black holes..
i was out in the backyard a few nights ago stargazing as usual, and i sort of clicked with something i have been thinking of..
what if black holes are the exit/entering of existence.. as in, we as humans experienced a very slow pace of upbringing in civilization, ect.. time passes..then towards what most call 'the end is near!' and what that 'end' is; is everything we know now being pulled through a black hole and spat out the other end as 'recycled' elements and life starts all over again..and again.
we, as human species, are made of stuff we find just floating in space as a gas or other badass stuff.. any possibilities that life as we know it is a recurring pattern (at random, never the same results) that repeats through the exit of the Black Gate?
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HellBlazer
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:27 pm 
 

Um no, there's no evidence to suggest any of that. There's no "exit" to a black hole where the stuff that falls in comes out... it's not really even a hole at all.

@droneriot: That's great news. I hadn't even heard of that mission before, I have to admit. Definitely sounds like a major step in understanding our own galaxy, and more generally how galaxies form and evolve.

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niix
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:41 pm 
 

i can see that.. if there really is no hole, does all the particles in contact with the hole still immerse within the 'space' itself continually? as if the universe is always vibrating, would all the energy still be energy regardless, within the hole?
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HellBlazer
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:11 pm 
 

Um, the matter that enters the black hole still exists in some form, yes, if that's what you're asking. This can be measured from the black hole's mass and its gravitational effect (actually one is determined by the other, of course).

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niix
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:17 am 
 

That is pretty intense.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:00 am 
 

NASA just announced that the WISE telescope would be reactivated for another 3-year mission detecting near-earth asteroids and comets, supposedly due in part to the recent explosion in Russia. The last 3-year mission found some pretty cool stuff so here's hoping it tracks down some more neat objects.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:59 am 
 

An outside observer never observes an object passing the event horizon, and in turn the object itself, given it be an observer, would see the universe speeding up around it to infinite speed before passing the event horizon. Now given that black holes evaporate and lose mass over time like Hawking predicted, shouldn't the black hole evaporate out of existence before anything can pass its event horizon (assuming that cosmic microwave background radiation at some point in the history of the universe will become less intense than the radiation of the black hole)? You'd think all the mass a black hole "swallows" during its existence as a black hole should be accumulated as a thin layer just outside its event horizon. Does that make sense?
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Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
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niix
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:17 am 
 

Since the matter within the whole still exists once 'absorbed'; and the gravitational pull is so strong not even light escapes, can the hole escape itself? ..Or does it continually pull through with eternal regards?
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