Speaking of eternal life..... Am I the only one here who finds such a concept to be utterly terrifying?

I may be wrong here but I don't think that Mindshadow was trying to justify the wrong doings of others as lessons in life from God. I think he was just saying that maybe there is more to life than this earthly life and that what happens to us here will effect the after life. Again I could be wrong.




Why do you find eternal life terrifying?

I was just musing

Some say we live a karmic existence, but I find it hard to believe, I can't imagine that some youngsters are suffering in hospital because they did something bad in another life. That's the main reason I struggle with buddhism, because they believe we can come back as an insect or "hungry ghost" depending on how we behave here.
zen interests me because it's all about living here and now, and not about anything before or after, as I understand it.
With regards to eternal life, I've often wondered how we would fill our time, and if we're supposed to just rest easy once there.
I like to believe there is something else, but I'd struggle to come up with a convincing argument, (and I did say - ..though this would seem very harsh "schooling" from what some people go through)

Well, first of all, I have a hard time believing that the human psyche is made to withstand eternity. Our minds are already quite fragile and limited as it is to even begin to understand the universe we live in, let alone cope with a never ending existence. Secondly; from what I understand, many religious groups think that, in the afterlife, if one has God's blessing, the only thing one will do is sing the aforementioned's praises, all the time, forever and ever, till the end of times. Basically, you're stripped of your free will, turned into a little robot, and forced to lick the Creators' boots until bloody existence itself ceases to be. How is that better than hell?!

Oh, that's not a big problem. Most ancient / medieval christian philosophers believed that when the immortal soul ascends to heaven / is united with god, the limitations of a flesh-bound human mind disappear. You see, a psych that isn't constantly confronted with the finiteness of mortal life, that is pure mind-essence, undisturbed by pesky brain chemicals and such, might be capable to deal with eternity just fine.

.....that doesn't make it any less horrific to me.

Sure, you're scared because you're just a tiny mortal with no ability to understand the greatness of god's kingdom

Well, personally I deem the concept of eternal death as utterly terrifying. Eternal life though? I can live with that (pun intended). I'd kill myself once I'm fed up with it, simple as that.

Not if it's eternal. You'd just walk around for a long time with an exit wound in your skull. Or hang by the neck until you got bored..

How? Death is, if anything, one of the most peaceful things ever. Now, being afraid of the act of dying I can understand.....

Well it sure beats getting a pineapple shoved up your ass every day for eternity now doesn't it.

I dunno, a lot of people are into a little bit of ass play now and then..... and I'm sure it will loosen up after a few days.

Aaaanyways, heaven is pictured as a place of constant bliss. Never ending constant happiness and bliss. It will never stop. Sure, a eternity in heaven seems like a horrible thing if you think about it, but you will be in constant bliss ALL THE DAMN TIME. I don't think you would care about the time period anymore, it's not like the bliss is going to end.

Oh, and being scared of eternal death is silly. You are dead.

I wonder what the board's Indian population would say about the OP, considering how many major religions are represented in that country alone.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14

Lobotomy..... Or ass rape..... Mmmmmmm.....

Tough choice.

Who the fuck said this?

Ben Stein said something to that effect.

Now the Christians who say explicit things like that about hell couldn't possibly be closet gays could they? I've been wondering that.

But it has everything to do with intelligence. What you described are problems, intelligence is defined as capacity for problem solving. A nation made up of smart people is going to bounce back from war, famine, etc. much better than a nation made up of dumb people. China has experienced all of those things, and yet they are thriving economically.

Intelligence is an important variable in success, but I never said it was the only variable. Health and environment play significant roles, too, but on average, higher intelligence = higher socioeconomic status.

Maybe so, but in the process of "upgrading" third world countries, we strip them of their culture. They never had a say as to whether they want to assimilate into modern society. Who is to say adopting the cultural, economic, political practices of developed countries is objectively good? We're basically forcing it down their throats.

China has a higher average IQ -- not really surprising.

You mean the dipshit who made Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed?

Ah, wait, wait, I found the exact quote:

Yup, sounds about right considering the bright mind it's coming from.

For the record (because everybody thinks I was serious and now it's not funny) the whole pineapple up the ass thing was Satan's punishment for Hitler in the movie Little Nicky. I figured at least a few people would have gotten that oh well. But yeah I was totally kidding.

I hear you there. I don't want to live forever (that's an answer to you, Marco Hietala).

Maybe it's not full on the subject, but I'm more into cyclic perception of time, not linear like Jews, Christians etc. tend to believe. I'm more of a pagan in my thinking. You know, a new spring follows winter, a new life follows death. It's just logical, I guess. I believe in Finnish pagan gods because they're visible everywhere as natural forces. Well, I must stop now before I start sounding like Varg...

^ You don't run the risk of sounding like Varg unless you start making hate speeches. Anyways what you were starting to say was quite interesting, please continue. Also I think maybe this thread should be split since we have been a long way from the OP for some time now.

Well, that was all I got to say from my part, really. The doctor said I shouldn't stress my sick little schitzophrenic brains. But maybe that same thought works on a universal scale too. The end is followed by a new beginning. I'm not so much into this hinduan concept a rebirth though, namely because I got so much bad karma, and I don't want to be born as a fly, moscuito or something similar.

Yeah, if you look at it from a "superhuman" perspective. I was thinking in more, um, "plausible" terms so to speak.


That alleged peacefulness is the problem. In my eyes, death is basically like going to sleep... and never waking up. No dreams, no consciousness... just nothing. It's this part that freaks me out just because I can't wrap my mind around it.


That's just a shortened way of saying "I never really thought about the subject and don't really care".

How about a third reason - the emotive ability to empathize?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy

it's just that humans don't sound very nice by your too concise definition.

yentass wrote: That's just a shortened way of saying "I never really thought about the subject and don't really care".

Dead is dead. The person that was you is gone, your consciousness has disappeared with the death of your body. And even if you believe in some kind of spirit or soul surviving after the death of your body it wouldn't be considered true death, your soul or "essence" so to speak would live on. As Xlxlx already said, being scared of dying is absolutely understandable, but being scared of "eternal death" (what does that even mean) is just silly. You only die once, and after that all that was you is gone.

You could've picked a better movie though

Have you ever heard of that philosophical approach which insists that death doesn't even exist? It goes sorta like this; when you are alive, you don't experience death first hand, ergo, it's inconsequential to you. Now, when your time comes and you actually die, you are obviously incapable of thinking/musing about it. As such, death technically doesn't exist, because no being can fully experience it. That might help you cope with the existential dread that such things tend to evoke (it has certainly helped me).

I guess it's more of an answer to Freddie Mercury, but oh well

And hey, that whole thing about having a cyclic perception of time is pretty fascinating. You should elaborate on that. I'd surely appreciate it.

Oh, yeah. That's from Epicurus.

"If I am, death is not. If death is, I am not"

It's a good way to look at it. Just live your life, enjoy it. Don't worry about death, it's inevitable. And when the time comes you will not be there anymore to experience it. Ofcourse, the moment of dying could be extremely horrible and painful.....

Or maybe it's an answer to Valerie from Conan the Barbarian As I recall, Conan never answered that question besides maybe with his doings.

I try to collect the slime from my brain and elaborate this thing later on. It's not so uncommon perception or anything though, there must be many people who think alike.

@Henkkjelle; oh yeah, you'll have to excuse me for not mentioning Epicurus by name. I'm a bit rusty on the topic of Greek philosophers

Don't mention it, when it comes to Greek philosophers I'm already fully eroded.

...which had to evolve, and could only have evolved through natural selection by providing some edge in the competition for the survival of the genes causing it. Or, well, a god could have installed that characteristic in her creations, if you wish to go the fairytale route, but let's not go there, we are adults, after all. In any case, you're confusing the mentioned ability and my feeble explanation on how it could have evolved. Apples and oranges, in other words. And even those two evolved, as well.


The universe is not very nice overall, and evolution through natural selection even less so, at least for those involved in it. Which means us, practically. And human beings are definitely not nice, either. There's absolutely no reason to believe that the world around us possesses any meaning or purpose whatsoever, and to assume it even could be "nice" in any meaningful way is childish.

Whaaa?? Are you implying that Little Nicky is anything but a cinematic masterpiece?? Yeah I probably could have thought up a better movie but it was this first thing that popped in my head when I read your post.



That's actually quite brilliant assuming you don't die any way involving mass amounts of agony or time to think about your upcoming death. Otherwise though that does make death seem far less terrifying.

Yep, or it depends on what eternal life are you talking about. As a vampire, it could be nice. You don't die, you don't get sick and your mind works like a charm.
As a soul, on the other hand, well not terrifying, just impossible. You cannot live outside a bodie. I dare you to try. Dying sucks.

@Erosion; remember that I said that being afraid of the act of dying is perfectly understandable. It's not the same at all to die peacefully in your bed while surrounded by your relatives than to be eaten alive by crocodiles. And yeah, I know that's an extreme example, but it gets the point across.

Yeah, thanks for defining "death" to me mate. I'm perfectly aware that I won't care about anything once I'm dead, hell, that's why I have a donor card. The thing is - as far as I know I'm not currently dead, and the notion of reaching that state is what I'm uncomfortable with NOW. Also, according to your logic, there's no difference between dying of old age and burned alive (since "dead is dead", right?), so I'm not able to follow how did the fear of dying became understandable to you all of a sudden (us not being on one page as far as our terminology goes would be the culprit I reckon).


An interesting thought, although I find the last line quite problematic (or probably miss something) - an inability to fully experience something could be used to negate all kinds of stuff, no matter how outlandish such a claim could turn out, don't you think?

I guess it could be described as indifferent, not good not bad, just obeying the mechanics of the universe. By nice I meant it sounds as if people are incapable of being nice to another without subconsciously obeying programmed genetics - I would like to think some self-less acts are the result of people helping others because they genuinely don't want to see them suffer as they would in a similar situation - though you say this is covered in your earlier statements on evolution.
All these billions of years, initial stars exploding to set off the next chain of events which produce amino acids - the building blocks of life. Then more billions of years as life can develop in finite areas, which is programmed to survive (through genetics) - and only the strongest survive, and all because of a chance(?) initial big bang singularity event (one theory I know). Where did it come from? We don't know. Why did it appear? We don't know. Yet here we are, and not just standing still living in caves, but now reaching out into the space that spawned us (or allowed us to be). And yet it could possess no meaning or purpose whatsoever as you state, I'm not sure whether that makes it all the more amazing or bloody depressing
I have even more respect for people who reasoned 2500+ years ago that the only logic was to sit and acquire inner peace, not live life dictated to by our evolutionary emotions - not constantly dancing to their tune so to speak.

@ yentass

There is only one kind of death. So yeah, dead is dead. I didn't say anything about the way of dying. Again, I have nothing against the fear of dying. It's the fear of the state of being dead that is irrational to me.

Us mere mortals don't know shit about what happens after death. Hence the fear. One can only have his/her beliefs. If there's a man that claims to know what happens after death, I don't believe him. Death is like the last unsolved mystery, and it will remain as such for a loooooong time.