Here's an interview of Jon Dette. It happened before Soundwave. He talks about drumming for Anthrax and how he got on board the Slayer train.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Yp3gUw0Dyw

Did this thread go full retard for a moment?

'Reign in Blood' is anything but a representative thrash album, and I certainly wouldn't consider it anywhere near the podium for best example. It's a deliberate, meticulous, unnatural effort to take the thrash formula to the extreme, at the expense of everything else (melody, variety, quality), with of course the notable (and duly noted) exceptions of "Postmortem" and the title track, which were remnants of Hanneman's genius days as a composer, and "Angel of Death", which was so overly over-the-top extreme that it set a new standard of over-the-top extremity. To be more specific, Slayer desperately, I repeat: desperately needed to outdo the extreme bands of the time to get back in the game, as such a thing as 1985 did happen, no matter how much 1986-worshippers like to overlook it, and it left Slayer, once leader of the extreme pack, far, far behind. When "Chemical Warfare" was first unleashed on the metal world, if you were in a metal band that was not Slayer and you had any ambition for your band to be called extreme one day... you had a whole lot of work ahead of you. Two years later, after Slayer had released 'Hell Awaits', a very moody, broody, doomy, personal album that was very much off limits in the race for extreme metal, and stood still as the likes of 'Bathory','In the Sign of Evil', 'Sentence of Death', 'Feel the Fire', 'Bonded by Blood', 'Infernal Overkill', 'Endless Pain', 'Seven Churches', 'Power and Pain' or 'Bestial Devastation' passed them by... well, they had to strike back fast and as strong as they possibly could, if they had any chance at all to reclaim the extreme-boundary-pushing throne.

That's exactly what they set out to do, and they did manage to produce the most ridiculously fast, relentless piece of thrash thus far, and stumbled upon a few relatively new tricks in the process, by speeding up tenfold already fast thrash riffs by then standards, and throwing bits and pieces of their already trademark anti-melodic soloing inside them, which did have a great deal of influence on tons of thrash and, later, death bands. The album went on to become legendary and is no doubt a major piece of thrash history, but all of that stemmed from its aesthetics rather than its overall quality. Out of its historical context, it's not as good as many think it is, and while it might be one of the most important thrash albums, it sure as fuck has no business showing up at the best thrash albums table. Indeed, 'Show no Mercy' should be able to give its attention-whore little brother a good first-hand recollection of the discussions after the vote, if it's so curious. Granted, Slayer will go down in both mainstream and metal history as the band behind 'Reign in Blood', but it shouldn't automatically make it "their best album" in one's mind. It's like "Jack Kirby could draw": missing the point.

Some albums I could cite as among the best examples of thrash (both as in "most representative" and "best") would include 'Rust in Peace', 'Show no Mercy', Coroner's 'RIP', 'Shattered Existence', 'Extreme Aggressions', 'Arise', 'Psycho Savant', 'Master of Pu... Oh, well, it's a pretty long list. Thrash is awesome and brought many masterpieces.


Really? I'm genuinely surprised by 'The Force' being even mentioned, let alone lavished with praise to such an extent. To be honest, it's the Onslaught album that made the least of an impression on me. I don't even think it's bad, I... I'm drawing a goddamn blank. I know for a fact that I've listened to it several times way back when (and I really liked PFH at the time), but all I took with me was "yeah, this is halfway between the overly sleazy debut and the over-polished final effort". Alright, you got me curious; I'll give it another go soon.

Really love the historical perspective you are bringing here, LegendMaker. I really do!

But I'm still calling bullshit on Reign In Blood "not being as good as I think it is" or some other nonsense. Heck, some of your examples of thrash masterpieces are not even worth one riff off RiB!

Your theory on why Slayer raised the intensity on RiB is very interesting due to competition is really interesting but I don't really buy it, nor do I feel they did it at the expense of the elements you mentioned, BTW. But it's thought-provoking and again, I like how you formulated it. Made me revisit that era, so cheers anyway!

[quote="LegendMaker"][/quote]


lol

agreed with everyone so far that said kerry king is a dickhead, that slayer hasn't mattered since divine intervention, that seasons in the abyss was mostly filler (although the title track is my fav slayer song... atmosphere+++), and similar other things. i saw them in 2000 or so with bostaph and that was good enough.

I stopped reading after you said your gibberish bullshit about Hell Awaits not being extreme and and all those other albums passing them by, which is a boldfaced lie. Hell Awaits a personal album? What?

Strange that Darkness Descends doesn't deserve a mention. It's THE extreme thrash album from '86. Also, Extreme Aggression, but not Pleasure to Kill? I honestly think the latter was way more brutal, relentless and made a greater impact.

Also, in a totally personal appreciation, I think both Metallica's MoP and Megadeth's RiP thrashes very little, especially compared to the aforementioned albums.

Darkness Descends is one of my absolute favorite records ever and the first LP I ever bought. I would put it right up there with the other thrash classics of 1986.

I honestly think it's the best metal album from 86', way better than RiB. I'm not a huge thrash fan, but that album for me is the apex of the genre and one of the greatest statements in extreme metal ever: it's ridiculously fast, brutal, relentless, the vocals are really convincing, frantic and evil; the production is perfect, the performance is so energetic and brutal that you can easily imagine them playing the stuff and feel the energy; in fact, DD actually sounds like they are trying their best to destroy the listener (which very few albums do, this one does it flawlessly) and the riffs rapes you like no other.

There can't be a thrash thread without Darkness Descends.

This. Of the Unholy Trio of '86, DD is my favorite. The scream on The Burning of Sodom... man... that scream gives me goosebumps exactly the way it did when I first listened to it. But of the three, PtK is arguably the most unrelenting. There aren't many thrash albums that match the brutality of PtK. Personally, it sounds more proto-death but I think it might just be because of Mille's vox.

Hell Awaits...a PERSONAL album?
Master Of Puppets? THRASH? Master Of Puppets is ANYTHING but thrash.
Show No Mercy I wouldn't consider a thrash album.
One of your best examples of thrash is Rust In Peace? Easily the worst "good" album Megadeth released.
You DO get points for mentioning Shattered Existence, and last I checked Savant was cool (don't own the album though; haven't listened to it for quite a few years).

To kind of bring this back around to the original topic, if we're going to presume that if Dave and Jeff are not coming back for good, Slayer will still go on in some capacity whether we like it or not. Would anyone prefer if they just stayed as a touring-only band with Gary Holt and Jon Dette or whomever they can find as permanent replacements? Could new members be what's needed to provide a more inspired and just plain better studio album than what they've produced? It's all too evident through these events that the band is a business and will continue as such making those business decisions, so what's the reality that you think we're going to have to deal with once this all blows over?

RE:RE:
@Riffs: Thanks for the support, man. My "theory on why Slayer raised the intensity on RiB" is less of personal theory of mine than it is documented fact, though. They said in various interviews that they deliberately pushed the limits, particularly the speed limit, for this one. It's also self-evident; you don't go from your slowest album to your fastest by chance, especially not when your fastest screams "deliberately sped up" throughout. Okay, I also included my own interpretation of how things went down, but it's no secret that there was a fierce competition for the most extreme thrash album at the time.

@DisruptioN: Well, at least you didn't actually quote my big-ass post just to add your "lol".

@TrooperEd: You stopped reading, huh? Pfff. Good for you? 'Hell Awaits', not unlike 'At war with Satan', was aiming for extreme, it just didn't pan out. It's not a bad album, and it has a few truly awesome tracks, but yeah, it's not quite the revolutionary masterpiece a number of MA users are dressing it up as (generally in rebellion against RiB's status). And for sure, it was completely outmatched by stuff like 'Infernal Overkill' in terms of speed and aggression. That's mere observation.

@Kveldulfr & Mike_64: Don't confuse my two lists, please; the first one was of albums that beat Slayer's pre-RiB output in the race for extreme thrash/metal, the second one is just a few of my many favorite thrash albums. Also, mind the dates, guys. Darkness Descends and Pleasure to Kill were both released after Reign in Blood, so no, I don't think it would have been reasonable to cite them as albums RiB was trying to top; if anything, it was the other way around. 1986, like any other year, was not a folder back then: it was an actual year, and it went down in chronological order.

@MrMcThrasher II: Well, read the above comment, plus the "MoP is not thrash lol" trend should have ended long ago. The rest is our personal tastes not entirely matching... Not fascinating.


I'd prefer if they just toured rather than releasing anything without their mainman, of course. But realistically, they will release something eventually, with or without Hanneman or Lombardo.

a big part of the problem we're having here is that this webforum in particular is completely misrepresentative (unrepresentative?) of the metal scene at large. for the majority of its fans, slayer's original lineup is a nice touch but as long as tom and kerry are there it's not really THAT much cause for complaint. particularly with lombardo; are they going to miss seeing his hat poke up every now and then from behind the kit? they're already used to not seeing hanneman, in any case. and their last 3-4 albums (basically everything since diabolus) have been received like they're the saviours of thrash. so the fans'll still be yelling "sllaaaaayyyerrrrrrr!!!" in the streets like nothing's wrong, i'm guessing.

LegendMaker you're being crazy, Reign in Blood is definitely one of the purest examples of thrash metal, many of those other records you listed incorporate outside elements...Show No Mercy can be thrash metal to some extent but it has lots of heavy and speed metal influences all over the place, it's basically like that one guy said a more evil Judas Priest album. Rust in Peace has thrash elements but there's also other elements like power metal (to some extent) and like all the other old Megadeth records it really doesn't sound like a typical thrash metal album, Megadeth always had their own unique style of thrashing...and other metalling as well.
And everyone knows what Master of Puppets sounds like so I'm not gonna elaborate on that one...but Reign In Blood doesn't have any outside elements, it's totally pure stripped down merciless 100% thrash metal and that's why I think Reign In Blood is a representative thrash metal record. It has everything that makes thrash metal, aggressive vocals, fast drumming, tremolo picked riffs, even the thrash breaks are there. If I was to explain some noob what thrash metal is I wouldn't really show them Megadeth's noodling or Coroner's whatever the hell it is that they do...and if I played Show No Mercy to someone who knows the most obvious heavy metal bands but no thrash metal he'd probably go something like "so it's like Judas Priest but with a singer who can't sing?" so yeah...I'd totally show them Reign In Blood, then they would make no mistake about it.


also I forgot to add, how in hell are Feel the Fire, Bonded by Blood, Sentence of Death and Infernal Overkill "more extreme" than Hell Awaits?

Real life prevented me from posting, so now y'all probably think I'm a huge phony. Nevertheless, here's why I think Reign In Blood is death metal:

That's not true, both Slayer and Kreator (if I may add them to the discussion) are well known death metal pioneers. I can't figure why we're having a discussion about Slayer being death metal or not, calling them dm is historial revisionnism and simply wrong. Reign In Blood is the closest they came to the genre but its an influence rather than a example. I think you're establishing a wrong definition in your mind, mixing emotions and subjectivity into classifying genres. A comparison between Scream Bloody Gore and Reign In Blood is really helping distinguishing the two genres.

So you claim that death metal was merely one side of thrash metal in the 80s? Then how come 90s death metal sounds completely different to Reign in Blood (and whatever else you think is death metal that's actually thrash)?

All the elements you mentioned that supposedly make RiB death metal are definitely compatible with thrash metal (which I think is a genre with fairly well defined boundaries). Early death metal was refined from those aspects, but albums like Scream Bloody Gore aren't merely extreme thrash.

No. Death metal progressively emerged from speed metal roots, and a large part of that evolution is for some reason called thrash metal. Other things are also called thrash metal.


That really depends on where you draw the line.


Maybe, but there isn't really a purely objective approach to this. You can't disregard what the music does on a subjective, emotional level when trying to determine its identity.

The fact the albums were released the same year indicates that - more or less - the 3 bands were working on the material at the same time, so it's more of a 'coincidence' than a real competence to top the another. It's known that Slayer wanted to push the extremity, but Kreator was already pretty brutal (proto death if you ask me).

About Metallica and Megadeth, it's not needed to put fanboyism over the musical qualities of those albums. All of us know how much thrash features DD, RiB, PtK that overrun completely Lars/James and Dave's bands. Also, don't forget Sepultura, which in my book was born as a death/thrash band and had the Bestial Devastation demo in 85' and their debut, also released in 86'.

Now, if Morbid Angel's Abominations were to be released on 86'...but still, we have the 86' demo that had enough thrash to make it into the thread IMO.

Necrophliac? No apparent motive, kill and kill again, survive my brutal thrashing I will hunt you to end? Running and hunting and slashing
and crushing and searching
and seeing and stabbing and shooting
and thrashing and smashing and
burning destroying and killing
and bleeding and pleading then Death?


Shut up.

and Slayer are 100% death metal pioneers despite not being death metal.

Dave and Jeff are my favorite members of Slayer. Now that the band lacks both of them, it's effectively over. Jeff's writing injected the atmosphere (read: personality) into their songs, and I just love Dave's drumming for reasons I can't fully explain. Tom was a great frontman, but he's very much lost his touch, and Kerry's riffs are usually fast... and that's about it.

In actuality, I want to see Jeff and Dave form a new band. It doesn't even need to be thrash, I just want to hear some eerie riffs with complicated drum parts.

If I wrote a lounge jazz/easy listening song with hideously violent lyrics, would that be as extreme as Reign in Blood or Infernal Overkill?

Except the extremity of the music actually does match the lyrics, smartass. I will admit Reign In Blood is more sonically extreme, and I will also admit that it was done as a reaction to keep up. But to say Hell Awaits isn't extreme at all is laughably stupid.

I don't disagree, it's relatively extreme, if quite tame compared to Reign in Blood. What's stupid is that you used lyrics as your sole argument.

Well that's because if I started singing DUNDADADUNDADADUNDADADUNDADADUNDADADUNDADADUNDADADUNDADA you would have no clue what the fuck I was talking about

You're incapable of describing music in words?

Not to pull an inhumanist on you, guys, but I'm actually too busy IRL at the moment to provide the in-depth answers (and/or YT links) required to address all your (counter)points. For now, just know that I'll happily do so soon, that I stand by all my previous points, and that Kveldulfr might want to give my earlier big-ass post a second read (really dude, I actually cited Sepultura's debut mini-album before you told me not to forget about it, and I'll be damned if merely stating that two of the most-reverred thrash albums ever A) are in fact thrash and B) are in fact among the bests qualifies as "fanboyism"). My kindest regards.


That guy...

Flat out terrible? Their best in my opinion. And after reading this thread Im glad that Im not the only one that appreciates Bastoph's work more than Lombardos. It feels like im sinning.

I agree with you. My top 3 Slayer albums are Seasons > DI > RIB. They are all 3 great albums, but that is how I go. I like RIB because it is short and fast, but I tend to like longer more progressive songs, so I would put the 2 others above. Bostaph's drumming on DI is great as well.

"Flat out terrible? Their best in my opinion. And after reading this thread Im glad that Im not the only one that appreciates Bastoph's work more than Lombardos. It feels like im sinning."


I wouldn't say I appreciate Bostaph's work more than Lombardo's overall, as Lombardo was a pioneer, and he played on the classic Slayer records. However, when Bostaph took over I didn't ever want him to leave. His work on all the Slayer albums he played on was quite acrobatic, and I love his fills. Dave's post Bostaph records leave much to be desired in my opinion. Too much restraint. He also butchers Bostaph's work live.

Saw Slayer with both drummers, give me Lombardo. Like Bostaph but found Dave fits Slayer better. Loved seeing Testament with Bostaph though. He's a hell of a drummer.

It'll be interesting to see how all this turns out. Hope that Lombardo is in for writing and recording of the next album though. Hard to understand how something like this happens to an established and big band, but when when it comes to money though I guess all is possible. I sure hope that Kerry isn't that much of a #$%^ to rip off his bandmates.

I agree that without Jeff and Dave, what's left isn't Slayer. It may be the KFK show, but it ain't Slayer.

I too listented to all Slayer albums recently and because of this newest Lombardo crisis, and while I uses to think that anything after Seasons was crap, this time around the newer albums do sound better. Sure there aren't a whole lot of brilliant songs but most of them are fairly good. Especially in Divine Intervention, which after Seasons was a major disappointment, now considering the stuff that came after it, doesn't sound so bad after all.

The problems of the post-Season albums are evident: pointlessly quicker, Araya's obnoxious King-induced screaming, less mermorable composition, weaker mixes, absence of Lombardo. But even those albums do retain Slayer's strenghts as well: brilliant guitar work, some fantastically wicked solos, powerful guitar sound. Hanneman and King do make a good team in the end. The worse Hanneman's compositions, the better King's. King improved as a composer over time, Hanneman could never match his early work and his nu-metal phase wasn't very good.

As much as I hate the idea of Slayer recording an album without Hanneman being there, I'm legitimately curious to see what Holt would come up with if King gave him the chance to contribute. I imagine it wouldn't be as bloated as the most recent Exodus releases and Bonded By Blood certainly had its share of Slayer parallels (Or is it the other way around?).

Yeah why not - both bands are incapable of putting out good albums these days, so it would at least be interesting.

There's quite an amusing part of this interview with Proscriptor McGovern where he talks about auditioning for Slayer and refers to them as 'the Kerry King show'.

http://www.maelstrom.nu/ezine/interview_iss9_85.php

I seriously wonder if people actually listen to albums of bands they bash or if they just repeat another poster's opinion because they don't have one themselves.

http://blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode= ... mID=186883
Apparently Araya knew it was gonna happen. At least according to Kerry King.

I really couldnt help noticing this little part in that interview:

I mean c'mon why is everyone so obsessed with Fidelman? Especially bands like Metallica and Slayer, 2 really huge bands who could totally get anyone they wanted and then they're both fighting over this hack who cant mix a record without making it sound like your speakers are fucked up