What's up everyone?

I'm required to make a post on a forum of my choice about a controversial topic that I feel strongly about for a class. Naturally, I chose this place, one of my favorite forums for sure!

Anyway, the topic I chose is the illegal downloading of music. Do you think it's killing the industry? Or do you think that it can help bands gain popularity by way of "mass production" I guess you could call it. With YouTube, Facebook, and all these other media sites, is it harder to make it big now? Do record companies even have a place anymore? What about the printing of CDs?

I've heard a couple horror stories from musicians that have been victims of illegal downloading, and they aren't too keen on it. Is it stealing? Is it as bad as stealing a car? Or something like that. What are your views? What do you think?

Thanks guys!

The results are ambivalent. If you are an obscure artist downloading means that much more people will find your music than otherwise would have, but few of them will buy it. I'm not so sure that downloading is the sole culprit behind the music industry's decline. There certainly is a correlation, downloading has risen at around the same time as the record industry has gone in a death spiral, but there are confounding variables. For example, prices of staple commodities like food and fuel have risen quite a lot in the past decade, thus spending on necessities increases while discretionary spending on things like music CDs decreases. If I was spending say half or 2/3 as much on food and gas as I am now I'd have a lot more money to spend on things like CDs, which I would like to buy but can't really afford to given my economic circumstances.

Downloading has helped me expand my musical horizons. I don't think I would've went out on a limb and bought a rap or skate punk record but since it's all at my fingertips and I took the time to check it out, I ended up enjoying it. And when I like an artist I find other ways to support them through merch and going to shows.

Is it killing the record industry? Perhaps. Is it killing the music industry? Absolutely not.

What industry?
MUAHAHAHA!!!!

Seriously though, I have bought so much music based on being lucky enough to live in an era where I have an opportunity to hear so much just with the internet. I like to buy physical music, and I do whenever I can, even if I already have the songs downloaded... I have a to-buy list a mile long, but I can't ever realistically afford it all.

I can say though that I have made more purchases due to discovering stuff online than not.
Furthermore, I am seldom interested in reissues or RM's... so it's not like me spending my money on OOP's from second/third/seventh-hand owners is helping (or hurting) artists any more than downloading does.

I don't think I should feel obligated NOT to purchase these albums just because "the band's not making money"... If bands want to make a buck off me, they should stop re-re-re-re'ing everything they record. I specifically buy OP's because I prefer to see/hear things as they originally were (for better or worse, it's just what I prefer).


EDIT:

Hold up...

WTF kind of class is this?

I don't think downloading music is inherently bad. As others have noted it helps greatly in expanding ones musical horizon, and this for relatively unknown musicians can mean a great way to spread the music. As prior posters have said, some people will actually buy some of the music they download.
I think one of the main problems is not so much downloading, but the incredibly easy access to music, like listening on youtube or spotify. I know that in some cases (especially with spotify) the musicians are supposed to be getting royalties or something, but it at least severely hurts the printed media. Working in a recordstore I can tell that compared to just one year ago CD sales have declined heavily. With young people this is typically in favor of videogames.

Alex Webster said this about it(old interview, but same type of thing).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... w8ZwT9t4qc

Heres David Vincent's 2011 interview, the part where he has the balls to talk about it, considering Illud was horrible(just read the comments).
I did download that album and deleted it the same day.

Basically the bigger bands suffer from it, the smaller ones break even or possibly even improve. Metal bands would usually as a whole be doing alright I'd say, but the acts like Cannibal Corpse, Nile etc which were doing well enough to live off would now be doing it tough, since even the big metal bands don't get filthy rich. Is it a bad thing for the industry? Definitely, labels no longer have the final say a to what gets noticed and what gets talked up, all albums are sampled heavily before they have a chance to be sold, so lackluster albums from reliable names will become financial duds, and even if you do have a good one that gets recieved well the sales will be lower. Smaller bands and labels can get the exposure they deserve, which as a listener I can approve of, but as far as an industry that can support a large number of bands financially it is plainly negative. I could never turn back, I get far too much gain far easier and faster by illegally downloading and sampling, and giving it up for the advantages of a few bigger artists isn't going to happen, as morally wrong as that may be.

You might want to read this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90812

Also, yeah, that's for a class? lol

Some people think it's really harmful to the bands. Maybe a bit. I don't know. Downloading has some positives as well. In a country like India, people get to know more about obscure bands and there are people I know also willing to support their favourite bands by buying merchandises or any other way possible. I download music and if I really like an album I buy it if possible. There are online shops like Flipkart in India. They've got a moderate range of metal/hard rock collection. Most of the mainstream and semi-mainstream bands are available. Some underground stuff as well. And above all they offer Cash on Delivery feature, so I prefer to buy from there.

Don't do your homework on metal. It really doesn't work out too well.

Hahaha, when he starts talking about how fans will react to Illud and just trails off, it sounds like he knew it was going to flop.

The industry has changed significantly and is continuing to change rapidly. The CD as a format is beginning to die out, vinyl has returned to a level of use it hasn't previously seen in 3 decades and chain stores are dying. Digital distribution via streaming media services and legal MP3 downloads are the present and likely future. Is downloading killing the industry? Yes. Major labels are consolidating and that's even true among niche metal labels. Sales are down and things are tough for them. Meanwhile, home recording and self produced records are easier than ever to make and distribute given the nature of digital distribution, which reduces the value of smaller record labels to not much more than being money marks capable of funding your record for you and nothing else.

The record industry is then dying as it was set up 10-15 years ago and it turning more to a meritocracy revolving around popular sentiment on things like social media, which was predicted. This comes with positives and negatives.

Where did I say I was doing my homework on metal? This is about the music scene in general, I just so happen to listen to metal...

The class is a Rhetoric and Civic Life class. Pretty rad if I do say so myself!


Anyway, I definitely understand where you guys are coming from, and agree somewhat, but at the same time, I don't think downloading is JUST hurting the bigger bands. I know the singer from Mutiny Within - a band not so popular here, but still great dudes - and he claims that illegal downloading destroyed his career. According to him, they sold about 10,000 physical copies of albums, but about 100,000 were illegally downloaded. With such a small amount of physical copies sold, Roadrunner dropped them from the label because Chris, the singer, and the other guys from the band were unable to pay back the money that Roadrunner spent on studio time, publicity, and all that other stuff that labels pay for. I know people justify it with smaller bands by saying that their music is getting noticed, but wouldn't it be better to throw the bands some extra cash?

A lot of you said that you'll buy the music if you like it to support the artists, but how many people do that? Just wondering what everyone thinks of the other side! Please keep giving insight!

What happened there is that you have a band who didn't read Steve Albini's tract about the music business. Lots of bands and musicians have been in that position before even when there was no illegal downloading. I mean, can he prove that without downloading they would have sold 110,000 units?

I'm not exactly sure. I always just kinda took his word for it. What I'm not understanding is how bands have been in this position before illegal downloading if it was, specifically, illegal downloading that fucked them up!

The way the numbers work and the way deals are constructed now is in fact different . No one was signed to 360 deals back in the late 90s when Albini wrote his infamous screed, for instance. But the basic rules still apply. Bands get an advance and think, "oh wow, free money!" and proceed to fuck themselves brutally. Nothing changes.

Yeah the notion that every illegal download is a lost sale certainly a flawed one, but at the same time it would definitely cut into the total sales, simply due to the artist losing the "it seems pretty ok" market. I like many people will buy anything I think is very good, but the overall standards I hold are considerably higher they were when I had dial up internet and no paypal, and I ha to sample a song or two, then see what I could find at the local store. Basically the balance of power has shifted from the labels and stores to the consumer, and the bands are still pretty fucked in the middle.

Well it depends on your view of the industry. Is it killing sales, and profits for the musicians and companies? Yes. Is it music being listened to by less people? No. Because of illegal downloading, and websites like Youtube, its being listened to by more people than ever. It depends on your perspective. I can create a song, upload to youtube, and it has the chance to be listened to as many as a million people in a weeks time. In the early 80s when my band was creating a demo, reaching a million people was an impossibility. Well it wasn't impossible, but it depended on how many people you could give away your demo to or, mail to. Is it killing profits in the music industry. Yes. It's not killing people listening to music. I do think downloading is stealing, but I see both sides of the story. When I had a bad, we would have been happy if just 100 people illegally downloaded our music (if that kind of thing existed)

I watched that again and what the hell song was he talking about that had "72 guitar tracks"? In reality, the only way to find out about metal is to download it. Last time I saw headbangers ball(years ago), the only thing I even watched was a Megadeth video.

David Vincent: "I personally buy stuff..."

You personally have money, dude. When was the last time, if ever, you "flipped a burger"?
I'm not saying that's an excuse NOT to buy records, but it's not like I have the luxury to be able to just buy every album I want to. If I could, why the hell wouldn't I?

How many of you older users would know about half the music you listened to without tape trading? It's not "different". Postage for a home-dubbed cassette tape is dirt cheap. New albums are not.

I believe that the record industry as we have known it is a dinosaur that is in the process of dying a slow death. I think the future will probably be legal downloads like Itunes and specialized independent record label for those who venture outside of the mainstream. Illegal downloading is certainly hurting major record labels, but their practices are often shady and I personally would like to see them go down. Also, free downloading often helps underground artists. For example, I'll go with the band I based my username off. I was 14 and I mentioned to someone I really liked Leftover Crack. They suggested I check out Dystopia. I downloaded a few songs and really liked it. I soon bought all their albums, one being a special vinyl release. If not for downloading I certainly would have never bought their records. And for the "well you can just use youtube" argument, it doesn't really work for me. The first time I heard Dystopia I thought it was too abrasive (remember, I was 14) and probably would have written it off if I just gave them a few youtube views. I like to have an artist on my iPod and give them a thorough listen before deciding to buy. There are so many bands now that I don't want to buy an album unless I'm 100% certain I really like it.

How could it be killing the industry? Which industry? If you mean the record industry, the industry that makes profit off of the sale of physical copies and downloads, yes. As far as I know, that's been proven. However, the music industry is probably doing better than ever. I have no doubt that more artists are being discovered through the internet, more than artists were being discovered in the past. Besides artists who were made popular by hype and promotion in the past. I think the mentality of the internet, at least from what I've seen is music from the radio and stuff sucks.

As far as downloads go, it's pretty much the same as the war on drugs. If the government can't keep illegal substances from crossing the border, they sure as hell can't stop 1s and 0s from passing through the air. I got the idea to say that thing I just said from anthony fantano who has a pretty interesting video on the subject of downloading music and how it effects the industry. I can't find it though.

I feel no pity for downloading something illegally from a major band. I had a collection of of 3,000 plus vinyl and tapes at one point. I work a regular job now, and support a family. I want to hear something new, buying it is not always an option. James Hatfield has a net worth of almost 200 million. I've given my money to that band, and traded their tape around back in the day (which they asked us to do). I give my money to bands like Nehëmah these days. Most of the big bands I've lost all respect for. It's fans like me who put them in mansions. We went to all of their shows, and bought all of their music, and spread news of them on zines that we worked hard on, on our dime. We the fans worked hard for these guys. They left us all in the dust, and complain about the downloaders, and how its hurting the industry. All they do is complain about the downloaders, but they are still making a living off of music. Punks like David Vincent should shut their mouths, and remember he makes a comfortable living off of music. I was friends with Trey, and saw the cars he bought, and the guitars he had customized (with his money), and the house he lives in, and the money he and the band put into gear and studio time. Trust me, Morbid Angel is doing alright.

Is it killing the industry? Only the industry as we used to know it. The industry is adapting to the times as usual. And it will continue to do so. Some people will lose money, some people will make money.

It's a given that downloading affects sales. It's a lot more complicated to determine how. Most rational people probably understand at this point in time that illegal downloading leads to extra sales but also to lost sales. It's determining the exact ratio as a whole, or for a particular band, that is tricky.

Outside the mainstream, the general trend seems to be that there are more bands that are somewhat viable but fewer bands who make it big. So it could be said that delving into non-mainstream music for a few years is now more accessible but really making a career out of it is harder than ever. Reaching the success of Iron Maiden and Metallica through mostly word of mouth is now probably inaccessible. People will talk about you alright, there's just very little money to be made.

There are other factors outside downloading that have also changed the industry, independently. First of all is the fact that the industry has recognized the value in the middle class market. The 40-50 years old of today have nothing to do with the 40-50 years old of 1980. They are more active, aware culturally and have tons of money to spend. They are now the prime market. To them, a 100 bucks ticket for a concert is nothing. To a student, 30 bucks is something to ponder. So the industry has shifted gear and is really catering to this market, which incidentally behaves a lot better at concerts and are just generally better consumers.

Another change in the industry is how the focus is turning more on music as a product as opposed to an art form. The role of the producers expanding in mainstream, shitty artists factories like American Idol and so on. With record companies, media outlets and TV networks all being parts of big umbrellas. There's a big chance the newspaper reviewing that mainstream concert has ties with the record company of the "artist" and that they also have ties with whatever shitty network this artist came out. And then you'll hear the song sampled in some TV commercial about a new car or some shit like that. That's where the money is, now. And that makes it very difficult for non-mainstream artist because that's not a model that makes money for corporations. It's not good business for them.

This video is really great and hilarious. I it's probably very relevant to this thread too. It's the "why doesn't MTV play music videos anymore?" one. I recommend watching it to those who haven't seen it yet.

Funny video but strangely enough the same technology that allows music to be 'stolen' also lets us watch music videos without having to pay for cable television.

As of today I do not think that downloading music is killing the industry. The change in format from physical into digital still keeping the process of a musician giving the a person its music for money.

As far as illegal downloading which we can safely say is as equal to stealing a physical Cd or a record. In my opinion the % of illegal downloaded music is still very small comparing to the revenues that the artists make through legal downloading. We can say that back in the 80's kids would physically steal albums and make a fun for it through the mall security. Did it affect MJ's revenues or Kiss's - I dont think so. I dont see musicians like Niki Minaj struggling because of illegal downloading. The ratio of illegal downloads is staying the same for artists who sell 80,000 albums and 8 million albums. Artists like Immortal that sell about 50,000 records, will not feel the pain of even 1000 illegal downloaded albums that would have given them an extra 1000$ in revenues. It would suck to loose 1000$ no doubt but is it really? (those numbers are my assumptions and I cant say for sure i'm right about them).

As far as horror stories of musicians - I havent had a chance to really see interviews where they worked for a year on an album and invested $50,000 and here came an illegal wave of downloads and they sold 5 albums because of that. People who find good music by a band would eventually go see them live, buy their shirt, buy this by that.

I think that downloading music is illegal because you should pay for it whatever amount is being asked to pay - is the amount charged is the right amount is another story. We can say that its overpriced bla bla bla. I worked last summer with a Canadian Rock band the Trews as a roadie and was selling their merchandise. People who came to the shows buy their albums and shirts and I dont think they are hurt by illegal downloads (me included). Its lost income in the process to me - stolen physical album from a record store, an illegally downloaded song or a bread of loaf that wasnt sold and is needed to be thrown to the garbage at the end of the day. You might say that comparing bread with albums isn't the same category because one is art and the other is strictly sold for profit. But in any industry you have incurring losses of whatever kind and those are calculated into your bottom line. People might agree or disagree with me - but that's how I see it.

As with any topic, there are 5 kinds of wrong for every 1 kind of correct. A lot of music fans are not fans of file sharing because they fear reprisal. Some aren't fans of it because they fear that a challenge to the established delivery corridor for music will choke it off. And some, sadly, are simply so high up on their moral high horses that their brains have ceased to work properly from lack of oxygen.

Do your research into the hysterical claims that it's killing music. There is no evidence whatsoever that this is true. None. There is evidence however that it helps. It's that simple.

Is it killing the industry? You mean the one that rapes musicians with ridiculously one-sided contracts so that even high profile artists barely get a buck per $20 CD sold? Or the one that sometimes forces artists to write/record bullshit radio friendly songs that they hate just so there's a single? That one? I hope it kills them.

I agree with you. If the music industry wants to put a stop to illegal downloading, stop marking up a CD by 800 percent.

Yes GTog it is killing the bastarly big label approach which IS good, but the artists that can make a living off it are getting hit as collateral too, that's what people are feeling bad about.

Then you've got somewhat large bands like Protest the Hero considering all this and doing cool shit like this: http://www.indiegogo.com/protestthehero

i downloaded until I stepped into fye and saw that bands I listened to made more than the songs in their music videos. My first two cd's where Karkelo by Korpiklaani and The 20th century Yngwie Malstein collection. After Karkelo in particular I was dead set on minimizing downloading, and shortly quitting downloading as a whole, to buying everything. I only every download when something is completely unavailable, like old obscure bm tapes and what not, but if that tape or album does get re-released or I come across it I do buy it, all 3 orchid albums are an example of me doing that. And if I can pay to digitally download I do that as well, Astel Oscoras Eriden is the only one I've had to do that with so far.

I guess I don't like downloading much, but it helps get the artist out there, especially when people upload songs to youtube.

You didn't know bands wrote albums?

It sounds stupid, but for a while I only paid attention to songs that had music videos to go along with them, or just trend songs in general. I knew they wrote albums obviously, but it wasn't until I started buying albums that I began to appreciate them more. Like the only Amon Amarth songs on my phone for a while where cry of the black birds, as long as the raven cries, pursuit of vikings, ect. Now I hate those songs.

I definitely understand where you guys are coming from. I just feel really bad for the smaller bands that are victims to illegal downloads. The bands that are already famous, whatever, they have enough cash. The up and coming bands, however, is illegal downloading helping or hurting them?

Back when I used to download a lot of stuff, I definitely found a lot of my (now) favorite bands that I would never have found had I not downloaded their album. But what about those people that download music, but don't buy it afterwards, don't buy the cd, etc. How can we fix that?

I had an idea that perhaps a band puts a few free songs from every album up on their website? Do you think that could work?

A few free songs doesn't work well enough for me personally, it really does need to be full album streaming to stop me from finding a full on download before I buy.

I really think illegal downloads are a bigger loss for well known bands than small bands, which is why the industry is so butthurt and fascist about it (no that's not an exaggeration if you look at lobbyists' ideas for anti-internet legislation). Small bands depend on people with select taste who want to know about their music before buying it, but are then 666 times more likely to actually buy something than the average teenager who's into late Metallica and Slipknot and doesn't give a shit.

I don't think illegal downloads hurt the overall sales of small bands at all. Prove me wrong. Presumption of innocence and stuff.

Bottom line: Nobody should feel bad for downloading music, but maybe go punch yourself for not buying that perfectly affordable shirt/CD of your favorite underground act, Scrooge.

Indeed, it's the "mid" sized ones which are really suffering it. So bigger extreme metal act size stuff, bands that would shift in the range of 50,000 copies usually, dropping to 35 or whatever, those are the ones suffering. Making it seem like your only options are Abyssal or Metallica seems to be extremely willfully ignorant.

No, you can divide any set into two subsets. Where did you even pull those figures from?

From interviews, I've seen with Nile for one mention how they have had a drop in sales since the early 2000's, despite having an increase in fans, which sits them in an awkward range where they're making almost enough to live off, but not quite, so downloading, and downloading directly has cause this drop, they were going to be as big as they are with or without the internet giving publicity. I believe I've seen Cannibal Corpse and Suffocation make similar statements, although I think they're both in the "still making a living" catagory. I assumed that this issue would be fairly constant between most of the bands in this upper level of extreme metal.