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Sonnycz
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:21 pm
Posts: 3
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:09 am 
 

Which aspects were deciding in this particular case ? :scratch:

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Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 6098
Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:19 am 
 

I know none of these bands you listed, so I cannot answer that any more specifically than I already did in my last post. I take it you disagree? Well, then post songs from the release(s) of Bermuda and Fit for an Autopsy you think are metal enough here. No guarantees, though. Maybe another mod familiar with the bands will comment as well.
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Sonnycz
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:21 pm
Posts: 3
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:07 am 
 

Ok thanks for a tip. I'll see what I can do :D :hail: .

Update:

Ok I'm not absolutely sure about Bermuda being over a half more metal than core, but I'm pretty convinced about Fit For An Autopsy.
Here is a song from their latest album (2011):

www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT7AHlQ07dQ&hd=1

To me there's no doubt it shows at least as much metal content as the other 2 deathcore bands included in metalarchives that I previously stated (The Famine, Aegaeon) !
:old:

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avetinja
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:13 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Serbia
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:35 am 
 

Quote:
Uh, okay, but how did you hear about this demo in the first place? On a radio show? And now I'm puzzled as to how you came up with these song titles in the first place...


Certainly not on some recent radio show, as the band is old, forgotten and largely unknown - and btw, for a 20 years since I'm into ex-YU metal I haven't ever heard about 'em, just until recently. If this confuses you, let me repeat myself again then: what I told is that mp3 rip of the demo I've sent you is from a dubbed tape of someone who recorded the radio show which played that demo (which obviously happened looong time ago). As the demo was aired on radio station, it tells quite enough that it was regular demo approved by the band who promoted and spread it around back in '80.

Because you ask, I found it on Soulseek few months ago, and heard about this band for the first time there - by checking the contents of the share folder "croatia metal" (or something like that) of some user. The .rar I've sent you is the one I've downloaded from that user, and so are the songtitles. 2 out of 3 we already found incorrectly titled, and I've found you a proof of correct title for the first track in this youtube upload from a band's recent reunion gig - http://youtu.be/VHLTJO006ME . The 3rd track is Death Calling Song - you have at least some proof from the youtube channel you found, and such title makes more sense than "Devil's Song" anyway... 2nd track is OK, as it's everywhere titled as Podigni pogled (mp3, your youtube channel, gig).

I think you already have enough evidence that band is real (photos, mp3s, videos from reunion gig), played heavy metal and had one demo with female singer and that demo was promoted but also distributed (in a DIY tapetrading way at least). Not sure what else you need to accept it - I'm not sure I have enough time to track you down more minor infos.

Morrigan wrote:
avetinja wrote:
One more problem with ex-Yugoslavian metal ("thanks" for mod who locked my separate thread about it),

Because there is no need for a separate thread.


Separate thread or not, but you are still missing the point anyway. Even if no separate thread - the point of whole complaint is a certain issue about old YUHM which here needs more attention and more careful moderation. By judging on such bands included and those missing/rejected here, the informative quality of MA concerning the old YU heavy metal is simply at worrying CRAP level - as full of double-standards, cursory moderation, huge lack of coherence and so on.

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Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 6098
Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:46 pm 
 

dansmaccabre wrote:
Hello!
Asked about Project Silence more than week ago and never did get any info about it. They are clearly metal enough and have digital album in BandCamp and also in their official website.

Can now be submitted. The full-length on Bandcamp warrants another look at this, I for one think it's acceptable.
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Derigin
Anthropophagus

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 2735
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:40 pm 
 

avetinja wrote:
Quote:
Uh, okay, but how did you hear about this demo in the first place? On a radio show? And now I'm puzzled as to how you came up with these song titles in the first place...


Certainly not on some recent radio show, as the band is old, forgotten and largely unknown - and btw, for a 20 years since I'm into ex-YU metal I haven't ever heard about 'em, just until recently. If this confuses you, let me repeat myself again then: what I told is that mp3 rip of the demo I've sent you is from a dubbed tape of someone who recorded the radio show which played that demo (which obviously happened looong time ago). As the demo was aired on radio station, it tells quite enough that it was regular demo approved by the band who promoted and spread it around back in '80.

Without questioning how you know that the "demo" you have was recorded on radio "obviously" a long time ago, that's not proof of a valid release. In fact, that's very much a bootleg, and we don't accept bootlegs as valid releases for this encyclopedia. As far as we are concerned, we have nothing to support this as an officially released work; it could very well simply be a bunch of individual tracks recorded off a radio show by a fan sometime and at someplace unknown. There's nothing to support that these tracks even formed an official album or demo, that they had a tracklisting issued by the band (and not made up by the fan who recorded it or someone else), or that even the band fits a specific time or place... or even existed at all! For all we know, these tracks could be from different bands, and then compiled together on a bootleg radio recording. That's not proof to us, sorry. That gives us no evidence to verify anything the band might have produced or done as true.

avetinja wrote:
Because you ask, I found it on Soulseek few months ago, and heard about this band for the first time there - by checking the contents of the share folder "croatia metal" (or something like that) of some user. The .rar I've sent you is the one I've downloaded from that user, and so are the songtitles. 2 out of 3 we already found incorrectly titled, and I've found you a proof of correct title for the first track in this youtube upload from a band's recent reunion gig - http://youtu.be/VHLTJO006ME . The 3rd track is Death Calling Song - you have at least some proof from the youtube channel you found, and such title makes more sense than "Devil's Song" anyway... 2nd track is OK, as it's everywhere titled as Podigni pogled (mp3, your youtube channel, gig).

Looking beyond the fact that this doesn't qualify as a valid release at all, since you can't verify that it is a valid release under our rules, we would never accept something simply because on Soulseek some user labeled it as "croatia metal." I'll be honest with you, I've had years of experience with DC++ and Soulseek. Half the shit you find through those sources can often end up being mislabeled or completely wrong, according to the person sharing the files and their misconceptions about heavy metal music. The same is true for YouTube. Just because someone out there says it's something, doesn't mean it actually is that. We'd rather have something that isn't hearsay to support what is being said.

avetinja wrote:
I think you already have enough evidence that band is real (photos, mp3s, videos from reunion gig), played heavy metal and had one demo with female singer and that demo was promoted but also distributed (in a DIY tapetrading way at least). Not sure what else you need to accept it - I'm not sure I have enough time to track you down more minor infos.

The onus lies on you, the submitter, to prove to us that this band existed, and published/distributed metal material. The latter requirement isn't fulfilled, and the former is dubious, however you haven't bothered to show us that the "demo" was published by the band or even distributed by them. On the contrary, all you've shown is that some nameless person ripped some songs off a radio (who knows when?) and then put them in a folder/uploaded them to YouTube in association with some images and videos of some random band members that are claimed to be the ones who played the music. What proof is that? If you want to know how they could be accepted, all we would need is proof that the band produced a demo and distributed it. Not a bootleg recording of a "demo." Not someone's folder titled "croatia metal." We need actual proof. The best proof being a picture of the demo, reviews at the time describing the demo, a distro showing the demo for sale, etc. etc. Things which wouldn't be so easy to fake, and things - especially - that could independently verify the existence of an official demo!

avetinja wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
Because there is no need for a separate thread.


Separate thread or not, but you are still missing the point anyway. Even if no separate thread - the point of whole complaint is a certain issue about old YUHM which here needs more attention and more careful moderation. By judging on such bands included and those missing/rejected here, the informative quality of MA concerning the old YU heavy metal is simply at worrying CRAP level - as full of double-standards, cursory moderation, huge lack of coherence and so on.

"cursory moderation" and "thanks." :roll:

I was the one who closed and redirected you in your previous thread. Thing is, you keep coming back to how we've somehow failed utterly to appropriately deal with the Yugoslavian metal scene, when you really don't understand how this site works. We really don't care about "scenes," whether they're regional or not. We're not in the business of cataloguing information on scenes, we're only in the business of cataloguing metal bands with valid releases (as our guidelines define both), regardless of what "scene" they might be a part of. In all the arguments you've made about the Yugoslavian scene, you seem to completely ignore or misunderstand our rules about metal. As explained in your thread before, if a band is hard rock and not heavy metal (even if people say it's heavy metal) it doesn't belong here. We don't accept bands simply because people associate them with metal; we accept them because they play metal. The same is true in this case, we don't accept bands that fail to have official, published and distributed albums. A bootleg of a radio recording doesn't cut it. Distribution via some random user's Soulseek folder doesn't cut it either. Even if the band DID produce, publish and distribute a demo album, the onus lies on you to show us that the band did in fact do that. Not via a fan of the band. Not through some random stranger on Soulseek. The band, itself.

Maybe it's not us that is cataloguing Yugoslavian metal at a "CRAP level," but yourself failing to understand how it is that we actually operate. We ask that if you do continue to contribute to this encyclopedia, you read and UNDERSTAND our rules on how we work:
http://www.metal-archives.com/content/rules

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Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 6098
Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:56 pm 
 

Sonnycz wrote:
Ok thanks for a tip. I'll see what I can do :D :hail: .

Update:

Ok I'm not absolutely sure about Bermuda being over a half more metal than core, but I'm pretty convinced about Fit For An Autopsy.
Here is a song from their latest album (2011):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT7AHlQ07dQ&hd=1

To me there's no doubt it shows at least as much metal content as the other 2 deathcore bands included in metalarchives that I previously stated (The Famine, Aegaeon) !
:old:

Borderline at best going by our standards. Other songs seem equally or even more -core-based to me.
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Muhammadabbadabba
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 8:00 pm
Posts: 1056
Location: R'lyeh
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:01 pm 
 

I'm aware the Australian RAC band Fortress was rejected many moons ago (2006, to be exact) under claims the band lacked sufficient Metalness to merit inclusion in the archives and had since been blacklisted. I'd like to make a case for them.

While they debuted with typical Skinhead Oi!, later albums were considerably heavier, drawing influence from the NWOBHM (which itself ranges from AOR to Hard Rock to, obviously, Metal). I reckon The Fires of Our Rage is arguably their heaviest album, and the title track included below has plenty of quick picking and double bass. Here are some tracks from later albums:
From Seize the Day:From Into Legend:From Fires of Our Rage:And for what it's worth, they covered Motörhead live (don't have the link :().
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Last edited by Muhammadabbadabba on Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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MorbidEngel
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:37 pm
Posts: 469
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:40 pm 
 

I'm just going to let you know, that wall of videos just lagged the hell out of my browser. I don't want to mini-mod so I'm not going to say more than that.
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Alhadis
Madder Max

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:35 am
Posts: 3631
Location: Melbourne, Australia
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:47 pm 
 

MorbidEngel wrote:
I'm just going to let you know, that wall of videos just lagged the hell out of my browser.

Yeah, that bugged with mine too. Muhammad, embedding one or two YouTube links is fine, but embedding nine all at once? Come on, that's a bit much. I've edited your post, but please keep that in mind for next time.
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J_Ason wrote:
grinder12345 wrote:
And you says that metal is about the riffs, that is bollocks, cause then black and death bands wouldn't get accepted, cause the play termolo-riffs.

they payl termolo! not real riff!

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Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 258714 subjects

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
Posts: 8967
Location: Québec
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:49 pm 
 

It was fine for me! Stop browsing the web with Netscape, guys!

But yeah, this was cluttering the page.
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LOL!

Metantoine's Magickal Realm
Halberd (doom/death)

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Muhammadabbadabba
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 8:00 pm
Posts: 1056
Location: R'lyeh
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:02 pm 
 

Alhadis wrote:
Muhammad, embedding one or two YouTube links is fine, but embedding nine all at once? Come on, that's a bit much. I've edited your post, but please keep that in mind for next time.
Metantoine wrote:
But yeah, this was cluttering the page.

My apologies. Will keep in mind next time.

That aside, is Fortress Metal enough?
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Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 258714 subjects

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Location: Québec
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:11 pm 
 

The songs from The Fires of Our Rage are definitely metal, not sure about the whole album though to make sure the songs weren't cherry picked. The songs from Into legend are also metal enough imo.
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Muhammadabbadabba
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:12 pm 
 

Then, I might go ahead and submit them for inclusion into the archive once unblacklisted.
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Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 258714 subjects

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
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Location: Québec
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:17 pm 
 

Please wait for the opinion of more mods. I'd like to hear the whole Fires of Our Rage album too, do you have a rip?
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Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 258714 subjects

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
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Location: Québec
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:30 pm 
 

@mods: please ask Muhammadabbadabbbabababababababbabababa or me for the the links of the albums, I'm not quite comfortable putting these links here.
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Muhammadabbadabba
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 8:00 pm
Posts: 1056
Location: R'lyeh
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:34 pm 
 

Metantoine wrote:
Please wait for the opinion of more mods. I'd like to hear the whole Fires of Our Rage album too, do you have a rip?
Metantoine wrote:
@mods: please ask Muhammadabbadabbbabababababababbabababa or me for the the links of the albums, I'm not quite comfortable putting these links here.


In the meantime, here are other songs available for your listening pleasure:
Fires of Our Rage
Into Legend
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RazorDick
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:34 pm
Posts: 133
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:03 am 
 

Hello, I had asked of Vorvadoss can be listened to again, they were rejected for being "Experimental Hardcore" but they aren't only that, they are mainly Doom/Black. I have seen them live in 2008 that's where I got the demo that I had submitted the band with, they have doom and black riffs with a few hardcore punk parts. Thank you.

Here is a YouTube link to a song from their demo
Vorvadoss - Luminous Tenebrae
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bppvENh ... ata_player

Here is a link to a video of their first show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnW2X5B8 ... ata_player

Here is another video of them preforming without their customs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSaE765 ... ata_player

Wyatt from Steel Bearing Hand also showed me a live album from Vorvadoss when I met him. He said he used to play on Vorvadoss.
So this demo is not the only release.

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demonizerbr
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:30 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:47 am 
 

Alhadis wrote:
Goregrind varies. It can be based on death metal riffs (Lymphatic Phlegm, Dead Infection, Haemorrage, Regurgitate, etc), or it can be driven by riffless bass, noise, and/or groove (Last Days of Humanity, Rompeprop, GUT, Satan's Revenge on Mankind, CBT, etc). The bands that're accepted on the archives fall in the former category... I'm afraid if your band was rejected for being goregrind, it's because it fell in the latter category. Sorry mate.


Ok, I added my band called Thanatopsis and we play goregrind in the ways of Carcass, Last Days of Humanity, Haemorrhage, Autophagia, Lymphatic Phlegm. As you said, it's based on Death Metal riffs and it can be easily listened in some tracks in SoundCloud.

Draft page is here: http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Tha ... 3540356490

SoundCloud song: https://soundcloud.com/jmartinsn/thanat ... stage-of-1

I also added Grylliphagia, which is a project I had from 2008 to 2010. I played Doom Metal with pitchshift vocals. I was rejected and blacklisted. WHY?

A song right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox24CaucXoY

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Alhadis
Madder Max

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:35 am
Posts: 3631
Location: Melbourne, Australia
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:01 am 
 

Okay, first of all... let me get this outta the way - demonizerbr, RazorDick? Please, please, please... instead of triple posting, use the edit button. :ugh: I've deleted the concurrent posts and added the fixes to the original. Let's try and keep this thread tidy, shall we? :)

demonizerbr wrote:
Ok, I added my band called Thanatopsis and we play goregrind in the ways of Carcass, Last Days of Humanity, Haemorrhage, Autophagia, Lymphatic Phlegm. As you said, it's based on Death Metal riffs and it can be easily listened in some tracks in SoundCloud.

Eh... the first song here, is definitely metallic, but the second two tracks are actually punk-based grindcore, not goregrind at all. :S So... yeah, unless the majority of your music is like the second two songs, I'm afraid they're staying on the blacklist, mate. Not what the site considers to be metal.

Quote:
I also added Grylliphagia, which is a project I had from 2008 to 2010. I played Doom Metal with pitchshift vocals. I was rejected and blacklisted. WHY?

You must be joking, dude... :lol: This is "doom metal" to you? That's textbook riffless goregrind. The sort the site considers unmetallic. Good stuff, I dug it quite a bit, but it's essentially relying more on fuzz/distortion to carry the song than any structure or songwriting. It's fundamentally rooted in noise, not metal.
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J_Ason wrote:
grinder12345 wrote:
And you says that metal is about the riffs, that is bollocks, cause then black and death bands wouldn't get accepted, cause the play termolo-riffs.

they payl termolo! not real riff!

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RazorDick
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:34 pm
Posts: 133
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:16 am 
 

I agree about keeping the thread neat, sorry I never noticed the edit option on the top corner, thank you for the advice :)

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demonizerbr
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:30 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:19 am 
 

Sorry for the multiple posts. :(

Thanatopsis varies songs styles from release to release. I can e-mail songs for you, no problem. The full-length is coming this next month with more metallic songs.

The only Grylliphagia song on youtube was that groovy one. Of course it's not Doom Metal, it's more like a groovy goregrind. But the other songs varies from Doom/Ambient. I can also e-mail you, no problem.

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Alhadis
Madder Max

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:35 am
Posts: 3631
Location: Melbourne, Australia
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:24 am 
 

By all means, feel free to e-mail me whatever (you'll find a link to my e-mail below this post on the left-hand side, close to where the "profile" and "pm" links are). Of course, if Thanatopsis's release is predominantly metallic, I still can't take it off the blacklist until the album's official release date. :)
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J_Ason wrote:
grinder12345 wrote:
And you says that metal is about the riffs, that is bollocks, cause then black and death bands wouldn't get accepted, cause the play termolo-riffs.

they payl termolo! not real riff!

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demonizerbr
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:30 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:40 am 
 

E-mailed tracks from Thanatopsis. Gonna send you Grylliphagia tracks as soon as possible. Thanks for you support, John.

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Alhadis
Madder Max

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:35 am
Posts: 3631
Location: Melbourne, Australia
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:09 am 
 

Ah no worries, mate. :D And look on the bright side; even if it isn't metallic enough for the 'Archives, you've still found yourself a fan. ;)
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J_Ason wrote:
grinder12345 wrote:
And you says that metal is about the riffs, that is bollocks, cause then black and death bands wouldn't get accepted, cause the play termolo-riffs.

they payl termolo! not real riff!

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Death_metal_knight
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:44 am
Posts: 2
Location: Serbia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:53 pm 
 

I'm here to ask about band Alitor from Serbia. Band is playing Progressive Thrash Metal, and I have proof of existence, metalness and physical record. So, why is this band blacklisted?

Kind regards, DMK.

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Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
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Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:39 pm 
 

It's blacklisted because one user repeatedly submitted it without proof of a valid release. According to their Facebook page, they will release an EP on CD next Monday. Unless they have anything else out that could qualify they'll stay on the blacklist until Monday/when the CD is out.
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whatdeydomeng
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Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:24 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:16 am 
 

I tried to submit Ghede (US) Black Metal with a demo out in 2011. The bandcamp page is ghedehardcore.bandcamp.com, but I assure you it is not hardcore. The demo is available on the bandcamp page in full it is however out of print.

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 12179
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:56 am 
 

Just curious to why Pornography from TN is blacklisted? My guess it's not quite metal enough..

http://prngrphy.bandcamp.com/
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Halloween
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 10:23 am
Posts: 542
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:47 am 
 

whatdeydomeng wrote:
I tried to submit Ghede (US) Black Metal with a demo out in 2011. The bandcamp page is ghedehardcore.bandcamp.com, but I assure you it is not hardcore. The demo is available on the bandcamp page in full it is however out of print.


More noise/hardcore than black metal.

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oogboog
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 867
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:55 am 
 

In regards to the band Zindan which was brought up here, I think that this site below might be a legitimate download site?
http://payplay.fm/r4c41d-zindan-depth
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but not sub-genes of death metal ( like grindcore and black metal).

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avetinja
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:13 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Serbia
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:56 pm 
 

@Deregin, PART I:

Derigin wrote:
Without questioning how you know that the "demo" you have was recorded on radio "obviously" a long time ago, that's not proof of a valid release.


You got it all wrong.
First off, it was not RECORDED on radio, it's not a band-playing-live-in-radio-show thing. It is a DEMO for which there is a evidence that it was once played by a DJ on a local radio show.
The voice cut at the end of the 3rd track suggest that clearly (it's either a jingle or the voice of a DJ himself, telling something as " 'The Ciao' - a gladly listened radio show")

Derigin wrote:
In fact, that's very much a bootleg, and we don't accept bootlegs as valid releases for this encyclopedia.


1. What I provided is not a bootleg, but a MP3 EVIDENCE OF THE OLD DEMO
2. That mp3 was made from someone's dubbed tape.
3. That person got his dub of the demo by recording the radio show where the demo was played by the radio DJ. Or, it might be a rip of the tape taken directly from the archive of the radio station itself.

Derigin wrote:
As far as we are concerned, we have nothing to support this as an officially released work; it could very well simply be a bunch of individual tracks recorded off a radio show by a fan sometime and at someplace unknown.


Wrong. The fact that demo was played by DJ on the radio supports the fact that these recordings were approved by the band to go to the public and thus, this demo release IS official.

Derigin wrote:
There's nothing to support that these tracks even formed an official album or demo,


These 3 tracks were a self-released demo, not EP or album. That's evident from poor quality of recordings and production.

Derigin wrote:
There's nothing to support that they had a tracklisting issued by the band (and not made up by the fan who recorded it or someone else),


The problem which was pointed to me was about songtitles, as it's concluded that 2 out of 3 songs from that mp3 rip I've sent with submission had incorrectly written titles. Correct titles are found now.
Exact order of the tracks is the one from this mp3 rip, and there is no better info about it at the moment. If such info appears and happens that such track order was incorrect - it's easy to be edited by mods. However, insisting that band should be completely rejected because the exact order of these tracks might be uncertain... doesn't seem to be a good and strong reason at all.

Derigin wrote:
There's nothing to support that even the band fits a specific time or place... or even existed at all!


The band is from Osijek, Croatia.
They had lyrics and sung in Croatian.
They had a female singer on this demo.
There are band photos from '80s.
There are even photos of the band playing at a local gig or festival which seems to be organised by Yugoslavian Communist Union - which is another detail that proves it all happened during '80s, hardly after that.
There is a video with recent reunion gig (with male singer) where band performs tracks from that old demo (members are obviously older as you can see and compare with these '80s photos).


Derigin wrote:
For all we know, these tracks could be from different bands...


Yeah? How? Anyone with pair of ears and common sense can rather easily conclude that all 3 tracks are from the same band, because all 3 songs are musically coherent together. Seems that you haven't listened the demo at all.

Derigin wrote:
...and then compiled together on a bootleg radio recording.


Again, one person which recorded these songs from a radio show where the demo was played by the DJ can't make this release a bootleg. It only tells where and how that particular person got the demo. The band obviously shared their demo with public as they sent their demo tape to the radio at least.

Derigin wrote:
Looking beyond the fact that this doesn't qualify as a valid release at all, since you can't verify that it is a valid release under our rules.


No. There is already collected a lot of proof that this is a valid release. However, even if you find this release still disputed, there is still no valid reason that this band should be completely rejected from the Archives.

Derigin wrote:
We would never accept something simply because on Soulseek some user labeled it as "croatia metal."


What are you talking about? That "croatian metal" folder of some Soulseek user wasn't mentioned to be a proof for anything, anyway. It was just a part of my answer to the simple question of Morrigan - where and how I got this demo at first place. If you are about splitting hairs here, first go back and read my answer to your friend properly.

Derigin wrote:
I'll be honest with you, I've had years of experience with DC++ and Soulseek. Half the shit you find through those sources can often end up being mislabeled or completely wrong, according to the person sharing the files and their misconceptions about heavy metal music.


I'm using Soulseek for years too, but neither your or mine bad and good experiences make any relevant point to discussion here.
Fact is that this old demo is saved and can be found on internet today as a mp3 and I found mine via Soulseek.
Misconceptions about heavy metal music in this case? No. "The music is acceptable" - as clearly told by the mod in explainatory e-mail sent to me about rejection.

Derigin wrote:
The same is true for YouTube. Just because someone out there says it's something, doesn't mean it actually is that. We'd rather have something that isn't hearsay to support what is being said.


No. Real video from a reunion gig of this band is found and is available on youtube, not only songs with static images in the background. Compare this song performed live with the mp3 of the old demo - these are the same song. These live videos are a proof about correct songtitles and many other things you are complaining about right now. Read my posts properly at least, before starting to reply and argue.

Derigin wrote:
The onus lies on you, the submitter, to prove to us that this band existed, and published/distributed metal material. The latter requirement isn't fulfilled, and the former is dubious, however you haven't bothered to show us that the "demo" was published by the band or even distributed by them. On the contrary, all you've shown is that some nameless person ripped some songs off a radio (who knows when?) and then put them in a folder/uploaded them to YouTube in association with some images and videos of some random band members that are claimed to be the ones who played the music. What proof is that? If you want to know how they could be accepted, all we would need is proof that the band produced a demo and distributed it. Not a bootleg recording of a "demo." Not someone's folder titled "croatia metal." We need actual proof. The best proof being a picture of the demo, reviews at the time describing the demo, a distro showing the demo for sale, etc. etc. Things which wouldn't be so easy to fake, and things - especially - that could independently verify the existence of an official demo!


Excuse me, but this is what rules say: "But for older, obscure bands (the kind of thrash band that released one demo in 1986 and disbanded, for example), if no sound samples are available, a scan from a metalzine review describing the band's sound as unambiguously metal can be acceptable, but those cases are exceptional and the moderation can exercise full discretion." - This band is indeed old and obscure, but sound samples are available and I've submitted you these. These were OK at "metal enough" criteria too.

But you ask for -A PICTURE OF THE DEMO- as a "valid proof" in this case?! You value it as "best" proof rather than all other proofs submitted right under your nose, together with the most important one: the music of the band and their release? Are you even trying to avoid and deny all these proofs?

Also, there is countless of such old, forgotten small bands accepted in the Archives with far less info and far less proof than this one. I can think here about so many bands that can be found in the archives approved with "nothing entered yet" releases section, and with brief mentions that there is at least one demo in their notes section. So far, this band doesn't qualifies for rejection because there is a proof that band is real, played metal, had produced a demo. Moreover, there is fairly enough evidence that demo was public and official.

Are you trying to tell that music can be easily faked, but picture couldn't? Are you out of your mind?

I haven't submitted any photo for this demo, because I simply don't have it and I don't own it in other way than these mp3s. But - one could lie about it, easily make a fake photo with some tape, even do a fake cover and so on... and yeah, that will pass, it's all OK because your nice little precious photo, a "best proof" is there. Haven't you think that you actually encourage MA users to lie in such difficult cases because of your rigid interpretations of the submission rules? I'm sorry because I need to say this: insisting that hard on a photo of the tape and trying to ignore sound samples and all other proofs is not only cursory, but just very stupid.

The same goes with the scans of flyers, distro lists, zine reviews etc. These may not exist at all (and sound samples DO EXIST!), but can be easily faked. Why to encourage lying?


Derigin wrote:
Distribution via some random user's Soulseek folder doesn't cut it either. Even if the band DID produce, publish and distribute a demo album, the onus lies on you to show us that the band did in fact do that. Not via a fan of the band. Not through some random stranger on Soulseek. The band, itself.


This is ridiculous. The demo was recorded, self-released and distributed back in '80s when there was no mp3 and no internet. It was distributed around via tape-trading obviously. Haven't you think that what you ask for is just way too much nonsense, because what if:
- only a small amount of tapes was traded/distributed/sold (very high possibility at that)
- most of these tapes are now lost, damaged or simply forgotten somewhere, and thus - unreachable (as it is more likely the case here)
- most of these tapes can't be found now as were destroyed or lost during the war in '90s (thinking about it is totally reasonable - as the band was from the area where war was going on)

Still, the demo is saved, sound samples are here and there is a evidence it was public/official.

-------------------------
@Deregin, PART II:

Derigin wrote:
"cursory moderation" and "thanks." :roll:

Yes, that's it, sorry and by the way, just to remind you - I've sent a PM asking you why you locked the thread. From you I haven't received even a simple answer for days. Your moderation of my thread is now at discussion here, but I had nowhere else to raise a complaint about it, as you probably ignored my PM.

Derigin wrote:
I was the one who closed and redirected you in your previous thread. Thing is, you keep coming back to how we've somehow failed utterly to appropriately deal with the Yugoslavian metal scene,


First off, let's face it and cut the crap: you more likely have no clue about old Yugoslavian metal. That's totally OK, but what is NOT so OK is your over-defensive attitude, banning of discussion and your poor explanation for the lock. It seems that you haven't even understood the purpose of the thread.

Derigin wrote:
when you really don't understand how this site works.


Yes I do quite well. However, we are here about your moderation of my thread. It was not a thread about only one band (where if separate thread your lock would be fully reasonable), but about many old bands from one country/region.

Derigin wrote:
We really don't care about "scenes," whether they're regional or not. We're not in the business of cataloguing information on scenes, we're only in the business of cataloguing metal bands with valid releases (as our guidelines define both), regardless of what "scene" they might be a part of.


That's only a poor excuse, because you are wrong about the facts. Indeed, this site doesn't deal with personal ideas about "scenes", but it do care and deals with regional scenes. "Country of origin" is required field when submitting a band, a thus - the site do catalogue and presents info about regional scenes. My thread was simply defined by many old bands who were from one region/country. Their music was intended to be open for discussion there, but you simply didn't allowed any discussion to happen, so "thanks".

Derigin wrote:
In all the arguments you've made about the Yugoslavian scene, you seem to completely ignore or misunderstand our rules about metal.


No, I didn't ignored nor misunderstood the rules. I wanted to discuss about some bands who belong to the "grey area" of these rules, heavy metal/hard rock bands in particular.

Derigin wrote:
As explained in your thread before, if a band is hard rock and not heavy metal (even if people say it's heavy metal) it doesn't belong here. We don't accept bands simply because people associate them with metal; we accept them because they play metal.


Sorry, but you haven't explained much, if anything at all. Still, I didn't, as you say - "admit that many of the bands in the Yugoslav scene rely more on a hard rock sound than a metal sound." No. Once again, I was talking about "grey area" HEAVY METAL/hard rock bands. The ratio between heavy metal and hard rock was intended to be a open point of discussion. By the way, I also made a clear distinction between these bands and some simple non-metal hard rock ones from Yugoslavia.

Derigin wrote:
Maybe it's not us that is cataloguing Yugoslavian metal at a "CRAP level," but yourself failing to understand how it is that we actually operate. We ask that if you do continue to contribute to this encyclopedia, you read and UNDERSTAND our rules on how we work:
http://www.metal-archives.com/content/rules


I'm not complaining about rules, I'm complaing about not so good moderation. As I'm from ex-Yugoslavia and I'm into Yugoslavian metal for 20 years I think I'm fairly enough competent to say and point out that something is WRONG about moderation for these bands. Something seriously stink - because there is a lot of double-standards, inconsistency and incoherence. Cursory moderation is simple address of the problem.

There is a problem and it simply needs some attention. That was the whole point.

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Fulgurius
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:51 am
Posts: 1068
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:53 pm 
 

oogboog wrote:
In regards to the band Zindan which was brought up here, I think that this site below might be a legitimate download site?
http://payplay.fm/r4c41d-zindan-depth

I'm ok with it, Zindan can be submitted.

@avetinja, just drop it. You yourself have told that the demo probably didn't have any cover, and you weren't able to provide any proofs of its valid distribution. Yes, the band existed, recorded a demo, played gigs and appeared on radio, yet they didn't have a valid release by our standards - and that's it. For the same reason we had a number of Soviet bands from the 80's removed from the site, even those that had recorded full-length album but hadn't released it properly - those albums usually had only unofficial circulation among the fans on dubbed tapes without any cover art, quite like in the case of the band in question, and it is not enough as per our rules.

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Derigin
Anthropophagus

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 2735
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:22 pm 
 

It's not just the cover, and Fulgurius' response simplifies it too much by saying it is. It's not even that the band might have existed (and I really question how you know all about this, but wont show us the sources...). It's that it doesn't have a valid release, and nothing you have said has proven otherwise.

Quote:
1. What I provided is not a bootleg, but a MP3 EVIDENCE OF THE OLD DEMO
2. That mp3 was made from someone's dubbed tape.
3. That person got his dub of the demo by recording the radio show where the demo was played by the radio DJ. Or, it might be a rip of the tape taken directly from the archive of the radio station itself.

Let's say I go to record some music off of a radio show. I record three songs off the radio show, all from Iron Maiden: "The Prisoner", "Strange World", "Be Quick or Be Dead". I compile these tracks together and decide to call it "Iron Maiden Greatest Hits." I then decide to rip it to Mp3, and distribute it on Soulseek or DC++.

At what point could it be proven that "Iron Maiden Greatest Hits" is an official release by the band?

As for your locked thread, avetinja, it was closed for a single, simple reason. We have a policy here: Users who want to ask why bands are rejected/deleted/blacklisted MUST do so in this thread. You've expressed your concerns about it being "lost" in this thread, your point being? Take a number, and follow suit with the same practice everyone else has to go through. Discussion with the staff can happen here.

And a last point:
Quote:
That's only a poor excuse, because you are wrong about the facts. Indeed, this site doesn't deal with personal ideas about "scenes", but it do care and deals with regional scenes. "Country of origin" is required field when submitting a band, a thus - the site do catalogue and presents info about regional scenes. My thread was simply defined by many old bands who were from one region/country. Their music was intended to be open for discussion there, but you simply didn't allowed any discussion to happen, so "thanks".

I've made it clear before, but I'll make it again: we don't care about regional scenes when we judge bands. You've made the point that a single, secondary field like "country of origin" is required for submitting a band. Yes, we wont deny that. But at no point do we go into the "band queue" and think "Oh boy, this band is Yugoslavian! That's going to factor into my decision." No, it doesn't. We base judgement on one primary thing: having an undeniably valid metal album. That's it. You have to prove that to us, however.

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Roland502
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:19 am
Posts: 3
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:25 pm 
 

Please Accept My Band Submission, I've been trying to get "Resting In Hell" on Here For a while now, There is only Digital Releases that have been made, you said that was okay now I believe? "Resting in Hell" Is A Brutal Death Metal band That Should be on here because it represents a new style of Metal that people might want to check out and see. That's my Reason for trying my hardest to put the band on here sorry for bothering you, I know you guys are busy I hope Have a good day and please help me with getting 'Resting In Hell' on this awesome site. Thank You so much for any help you can give!
There is two Releases this band has made first being, "Chainsaw, Pussy, Party (Single)" and "A Slasher Paradise (Demo)" Both are Digitally Released.

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Alevilleandra11221967
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:17 pm
Posts: 5
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:56 am 
 

Hello, a band I just submitted has been rejected because it's Nu Metal. I was wondering if anyone is willing to listen to a song and maybe change the decision. I know the genre is said to be not allowed, but I didn't know what genre to classify as so I based it on facebook and wikipedia. They could be wrong.
http://youtu.be/LbvC4EVLkBU
http://youtu.be/6bP_iU1dxmE
Draft:
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/%D0%A1%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%82/3540357575

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 12179
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:32 am 
 

Actually that doesn't even really sound heavy enough to be classified as numetal it's closer to whatever evanescence is.
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6562
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:23 am 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
Actually that doesn't even really sound heavy enough to be classified as numetal it's closer to whatever evanescence is.

You're not an authority (ie. moderator), so you should at least say as much when you comment on something here, so as not to create any confusion.
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Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 258714 subjects

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
Posts: 8967
Location: Québec
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:55 am 
 

Alevilleandra11221967 wrote:
Hello, a band I just submitted has been rejected because it's Nu Metal. I was wondering if anyone is willing to listen to a song and maybe change the decision. I know the genre is said to be not allowed, but I didn't know what genre to classify as so I based it on facebook and wikipedia. They could be wrong.
http://youtu.be/LbvC4EVLkBU
http://youtu.be/6bP_iU1dxmE
Draft:
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/%D0%A1%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%82/3540357575

Very damn far from being metal. No way it's gonna be approved.
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avetinja
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:13 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Serbia
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:58 pm 
 

Fulgurius wrote:
For the same reason we had a number of Soviet bands from the 80's removed from the site, even those that had recorded full-length album but hadn't released it properly - those albums usually had only unofficial circulation among the fans on dubbed tapes without any cover art, quite like in the case of the band in question, and it is not enough as per our rules.

It's none of my business and I'm not very competent about old ex-USSR metal and I don't know exact examples you are talking about, but generally speaking, I don't get it. It doesn't sound logical at all. By common sense it's very simple - album from pre-internet era was something which needed to be released properly - on vinyl or CD, although pro-done cassette albums were legit too. No cover art = not a cassette album. But it's still a release. But not an album, it's a DEMO release.

"Unofficial circulation among the fans on dubbed tapes"... how it was "unofficial" practice for a DEMO back then? Pre-internet demo tapes weren't a fetishist collector tokens as are now - there were no fancy distros stocking lots of something like "pro-done, limited to 50 copies only handnumbered with full-color cover and additional embroided patch for first 10 die-hard copies of the... DEMO tape". No shit like that, despite perhaps some very very rare exceptions. Back then, that tapetrading/dubbing circulation was THE distribution of underground bands' demos.

For old, obscure bands, I haven't noticed requirement of the cover, distro list, review etc. for a demo in site rules. What I see is that these are required only IF no sound samples are available for submission. Shouldn't be a issue with my submission per these rules - I provided mp3s.




Derigin wrote:
It's not just the cover, and Fulgurius' response simplifies it too much by saying it is. It's not even that the band might have existed (and I really question how you know all about this, but wont show us the sources...).

But what is still unclear about time, place and existence of the band?
The band existed - mp3s and photos prove that.
The band is from Croatia, it's obvious because they had lyrics sung in Croatian. There is also a proof from youtube source (you may argue about youtube in general, but here it was very useful) - from real live video from their recent reunion show: http://youtu.be/VHLTJO006ME - it tells that the band was from Osijek, which is a city in Croatia.
It tells clearly, because that video mentions "Povjest osječkog rocka" (History of Osijek rock), which was a name of the festival where that their reunion gig happened. There is also a promo teaser for this festival: http://youtu.be/4qANUDr0tLY
From translation: 23 bands on the bill, all from Osijek who played between 1975 and 1990. That a proof that band was from '80s, and there is lots of other things which support that, such as these old photos and so on.

There is one detail also: band had a female singer on the demo - anyone with the ears can hear a girl is singing these songs, and there is one promo photo and also one from the gig with her. From other photos, it should be obviously noticed that they had a male singer at some point, but he is not singing on the demo. Some male singer was on reunion gig, too.

Derigin wrote:
It's that it doesn't have a valid release, and nothing you have said has proven otherwise.

Sure, I don't have a cover and I don't own the tape. I don't have any scans of reviews and so on. I don't lie about any of that, nor I wanted to make any fake photos just to make this "valid" and pass your own standards.

Keep in mind that this is a demo of a obscure '80s band. Use some common sense here - this doesn't even need any special proof about physical release. No release other than physical one was possible in that era.

Still, there is a proof about DJ radio play. That's public. That considers the demo official, because it's evident that the band at least distributed their demo tape to that radio which played it for the public. So, WHY it is not a valid release? Because it doesn't have some fancy cover art? Because I myself don't have it on tape?

Derigin wrote:
Let's say I go to record some music off of a radio show. I record three songs off the radio show, all from Iron Maiden: "The Prisoner", "Strange World", "Be Quick or Be Dead". I compile these tracks together and decide to call it "Iron Maiden Greatest Hits." I then decide to rip it to Mp3, and distribute it on Soulseek or DC++.

At what point could it be proven that "Iron Maiden Greatest Hits" is an official release by the band?

Of course not, not at any point, but it's not good parallel with this anyway.

This is a self-released demo, not a professional release nor copyrighted material. Releasing a demo material doesn't require any legal copyright registration, only professional release does. Anyway, the fact that this demo had it's radio promotion/play, tells nothing else that it was official as the band shared it with the public. There's simply no proof that this demo itself is a bootleg, even if you consider someone's actions as recording it off a radio show (then) or downloading it (now) as "bootlegging" (sounds weird if you really do).

Anyway, this is what you have here:
- proof about time, place and existence of the band.
- proof that their demo exist - mp3s of it are provided to you.
- proof that band played metal.
- proof that their demo was official and distributed - from the evidence that it was played by the DJ on radio show.
- proof about correct songtitles - found later, after submission though

There is what is still missing and not found yet:
- names of bandmembers
- cover art
- photo of the tape
- scans of reviews, distro lists etc.
- trivial infos and whatever else

So, where is the problem?
Again, there is countless of old, obscure bands in the archives with "nothing entered yet" discographies, but with notes section with brief mentions that some demo was released. How this band doesn't qualifies even that AT LEAST?

Derigin wrote:
As for your locked thread, avetinja, it was closed for a single, simple reason. We have a policy here: Users who want to ask why bands are rejected/deleted/blacklisted MUST do so in this thread. You've expressed your concerns about it being "lost" in this thread, your point being? Take a number, and follow suit with the same practice everyone else has to go through. Discussion with the staff can happen here.


I opened separate thread because it was about discussing many old bands from one regional scene. Not for a single band. There is a problem with how moderation deals with many bands from this regional scene. That needs some attention and there are lot of it for discussion. It can be discussed here, but it would lead to less quality discussion here, but whatever... fine, let it be.

Derigin wrote:
I've made it clear before, but I'll make it again: we don't care about regional scenes when we judge bands. You've made the point that a single, secondary field like "country of origin" is required for submitting a band. Yes, we wont deny that. But at no point do we go into the "band queue" and think "Oh boy, this band is Yugoslavian! That's going to factor into my decision." No, it doesn't. We base judgement on one primary thing: having an undeniably valid metal album. That's it. You have to prove that to us, however.


Noone asks that you should, but then again, what is wrong in having some basic knowledge about some regional scene for the bands which you should moderate? That's bad? Less objective? Especially not good for borderline cases?

I'm only talking here about old bands, '80s and late '70s mostly, which is way before internet era anyway. Metal didn't had such "institutionalised" global parameters back then. Music industry was different, as well as differences between regional scenes.

A '80s heavy metal/hard rock borderliner from US (for example) is nowhere the same as some such borderliner from Yugoslavia or some other communist country. Dealing with US borderliner is rather easy - because in general, if such band failed to produce a clearly metal album, it was more likely a band's own fault. For a Yugoslavian one it's more difficult - as the softer sound here and there often wasn't just the fault of band itself.

Anyway, why VATRENI POLJUBAC is removed from the archives? That's crucial band for ex-YU HM! They are a HM/hard rock borderliner, but their '78 debut LP is a heavy metal pioneering milestone of that scene!
I'm totally puzzled... how this ain't HEAVY METAL?

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