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Zushakon
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:40 pm 
 

The first one that really comes to mind is In Mourning. Their 2nd and 3rd albums just haven't really come close to the genius they evoked on Shrouded Divine.
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I'd say another would be Angst Skvadron. T. Nefas (R.I.P.) just didn't evoke the same feeling with Sweet Poison or The Alien EP that Flukt did.
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What do you guys think?

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Oxenkiller
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:53 pm 
 

I've never heard either one of those albums you mention, but I would think the list would be countless. Death Angel is the poster child of bands like this; bands who put out one outstanding debut but then never came close to matching it with any of their subsequent releases.

And a lot of bands just wimp out, or their creativity dries up, or they try delving into other musical styles, but their stylistic shifts never have the same impact as their original vision did on the debut.

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DoomMetalAlchemist
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:58 pm 
 

The NWOBHM band Legend. A lot of people into the band prefer Death In the Nursery, but I think the self titled debut is way better. It's heavier, darker, and it's got a lot of 70s Sabbath influence (without being doom) for an 80s metal album (and to me that's a good thing). Here are a couple of my favorite songs of theirs, from the debut:

Legend - Buried Alive
Legend - Song For a Soldier

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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:25 pm 
 

How about Jag Panzer? Not saying that everything after the debut sucks (far from it, in fact), but Ample Destruction is unparalleled; a wrecking ball made of lighting and fire, destroying everything on its path, and covering the tattered remains of its victims with metal :metal:

Cheesy description, I know, but almost every single person that has listened to the album knows precisely what I'm talking about.
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Ill-Starred Son
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Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:53 pm 
 

I'm sure there are many, but IMO the first two that immediately come to mind are Ensiferum and Wintersun's first albums.

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Thiestru
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Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:18 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:04 pm 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
How about Jag Panzer? Not saying that everything after the debut sucks (far from it, in fact), but Ample Destruction is unparalleled; a wrecking ball made of lighting and fire, destroying everything on its path, and covering the tattered remains of its victims with metal :metal:

Cheesy description, I know, but almost every single person that has listened to the album knows precisely what I'm talking about.


The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

The first band that sprang to mind when considering this question was Psychotic fucking Waltz. 'A Social Grace' is a masterpiece from beginning to end, and, to me, one of the best albums recorded in the last (insert number here) years. They followed it up with 'Into the Everflow', which, while being a good album with one or two great songs (mainly the completely amazing title track), was a big step down. Then 'Mosquito' and, to a slightly lesser extent, 'Bleeding' were just... decent.

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LegendMaker
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:09 pm 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
I've never heard either one of those albums you mention, but I would think the list would be countless

+1.

Also, it's really little more than a list at this point. OP, if I may, YouTube links would be much more useful than cover arts for giving us a taste of your examples. We could also make it a discussion, like for instance: "a vast majority of bands tend to release their quintessential material early on, and never surpass their own debut... Do you (dis)agree, and if so, why is that? Please elaborate".

I personally think the most common scenario is that the debut is unique in a band's discography primarily because the material was written by a bunch of guys enjoying themselves without any tangible promise of releasing an album some day, with little to no pressure and no expectations to meet. Of course the opposite scenario also exists, where a band gets signed prior to having grown their own style and/or reached their creativity peak, consequently blowing their hit-and-miss debut out of the water with their sophomore or later works. Famous examples of the latter case would include Judas Priest, Motörhead, Venom, Megadeth, Kreator, Sepultura, Mayhem, Old Man's Child, Edguy, Manilla Road, Accept, and arguably Black Sabbath. Famous examples of the former case would include literally too many bands to list. I agree with Jag Panzer although I love plenty of their later stuff, and I'll also cite Slayer, Destruction, Whiplash, Coroner (most thrash bands, really), Dio, WASP, Tank, Dismember, Entombed, Omen, Witchery...
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Church13
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Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:26 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:19 pm 
 

Honestly I can't think of any. Importance? Black Sabbath yes, but I think they have way better albums in the next 4. The only 2 that I can even think of that come close are Emperor's ITNSE and Suffocation's Effigy of the Forgotten. But Pierced from Within is one of 3 albums I would consider perfect, so as good as Effigy was, Pierced is untouchable

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Folkemon_
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:21 pm 
 

Hammerfall and Sonata Arctica comes to mind first, both of em never reached the level of those debuts and both suck now.
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Crypt Infektor
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:40 pm 
 

The first thing that popped into my head would Exodus' Bonded By Blood. Quite obvious, I know. It just seems when I first heard Pleasures of the Flesh (and re-listened to it multiple times), it seems a lot of the energy was sucked out of the room. It was like two different bands, actually. And it seems like each album that was released afterwards had a dip in quality (even though I'd take Fabulous Disaster over anything after BBB) and was never able to duplicate the maniacal energy of their debut.
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IX Leviathan
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:55 pm 
 

Hum, Omnium Gatherum and October Tide come to mind, albeit the former came close to topping the debut imo with their last release. Everything in between has been forgettable for the most part. Katatonia being another, although I'm sure many who are fans of the later era would disagree. I've never been inclined to move one way or another towards anything they've done post-Brave Murder Day and I feel the style is very redundant now. Not to mention Dance of December Souls is just sheer brilliance and their are very few albums within the genre that can top/compete with it. Saturnus is another doom/death band like this. The debut just wipes the floor with anything they put out afterwards. Even Saturn in Ascension, despite it being one of my favourites of 2012, can't hold a candle to Paradise Belongs to You.

Lastly are two funeral doom giants, Pantheist and Skepticism. For the former, O Solitude is easily the best thing they've done to date and everything after just pales in comparison. In regards to the latter, Stormcrowfleet is an absolute pillar to the genre and I feel as though that while their later releases are good, they just fail to capture the same monolithic, beautiful, transcendental atmosphere the debut had.
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Oxenkiller
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:24 am 
 

yeah, "Bonded By Blood..." Paul Baloff gave that band so much personality, even when yelling the lyrics out of key it somehow worked out great and I mean that without a hint of sarcasm. The guitars were crisp, out front, attacking and in your face.

Their later stuff, it had more of the Metallica ""Crunch" like on "Master of Puppets" or whatever, but it sounded more, I dunno, redundant; it was heavier but not as aggressive or energetic, if you know what I mean. Riffs were often pretty good, but not as CONSISTANTLY good. And a lot of their lyrics, particularly on the later stuff, tended to be your typical mallcorish "I'm pissed and wanna beat you up" type of stuff, like you'd hear on a Trapt album or something.

And yeah, a lot of bands, when they are still underground, their artistic vision is more pure and uncorrupted by label meddling or other expectations, and they aren't burned out or sick of the scene, or each other, and what not. Especially if they wait a few years and refine their sound before releasing their debut, as opposed to just releasing a compilation of songs that the band wrote after getting together for the first time just three months earlier. So those first albums, like that of Exodus, Death Angel and Chuck Schuldiner's Death were perfect examples of a bands focused energy (the bands had all been together at least three or four years before those debuts came out) without any compromise or burn-out.

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Subrick
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:28 am 
 

Epicus Doomicus Metallicus by Candlemass. Almost everything else they've released has been similarly excellent, but there's something about Epicus that makes it rise above even albums like Nightfall.
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Oxenkiller
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:38 am 
 

I like that album for it's almost eerie, cavernous feel and mystical qualities . It's true that nothing I have heard by them has ever come close to it in terms of sound or feeling. However, in my opinion Candlemass's BEST album, overall, was their 2005 self-titled one- ("The White Album") they seemed to do almost everything right, in terms of songwriting, on that one.

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chemicalcoma
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Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:00 am
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:27 am 
 

Xasthur-a gate through bloodstained mirrors

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Necroticism174
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:46 am 
 

This seems to happen a lot with doom bands. Black Sabbath's self-titled is unparallelled. The instrumental interplay is brilliant, the lyrics are amazing and sometimes even whimsical, it just oozes doom and blues. Don't think they ever surpassed it and it's the one I go back to the most. Also seconding Epicus. Something about those timeless riffs, solos, and Lanquist's VOICE OF PURE DOOM gliding over it all is just so special. A perfect moment in time. Finally, Swallow The Sun's The Morning Never Came. They've released lots of good music since but none so doomed and beautiful. From the unforgettable piano melody of Through Her Silvery Body to the sheer crushing and emotional growls of the title track.
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wrathchild_88
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:41 am 
 

Another +1 for Candlemass. Epicus Doomicus Metallicus is their best - not by far, but it is to me.

I'd say Entombed fall into this category pretty well - there's no beating Left Hand Path.

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MrMcThrasher II
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:45 am 
 

Depending my mood, it's Slayer's Show No Mercy that's a great example of this.
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shouvince
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:12 am 
 

At this point of time, only Arsis comes to my mind. Quite evidently so...nothing beyond 'A Celebration of Guilt' is as enjoyable in my opinion.

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Twin_guitar_attack
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:53 am 
 

Kill Em All
Tears laid in earth by the 3rd and the mortal - I like their later stuff, and memoirs is the only one I actually have on CD, but I think their debut is an incredible album, incredibly soothing but with definite metal elements.
Deicide. I used to prefer Legion, but the debut has a hell of a lot more replay value.
Ozzy Osbourne's solo project never matched Blizzard of Ozz, some of the tracks on that were perfect.
And similarly to that is Holy Diver by Dio. Rainbow in the dark would never again be matched by the great man IMO.
WITTR's diadem of 12 stars is my favourite release by them too, the other albums have just lacked somehting that was special about this one, although I've not heard Celestial Lineage.
Cryptopsy - blasphemy made flesh. Admittedly this and NSV are the only ones I've heard more than once, but BMF is a fantastic death metal album, NSV is about okay, and the rest were pretty bad IMO.
Sirenia - at sixes and sevens. This is one of my all time favourite gothic metal albums, and the rest just never could match it, their originality was just lost and they started to sound like mid-tier female fronted gothic metal bands
Anthrax - fistful of metal. I never really cared for anything they did after that to any real extent.

In terms of thrash and death metal there must be hundreds of bands who put out great first albums and never matched it, lots of examples mentioned already.

and non metal:
Slowdive's Just for a day is my favourite by them, even if Souvlaki is usually the favourite for most people.
Dummy by Portishead is also better than third and the self titled.
Out of the four studio albums Anneke Van Giersbergen has put out so far, Air has been my favourite, the atmosphere on it is a lot better than the others, and it seems almost a continuation of the sound she left on the gathering's Home album.
Lovesliescrushing's bloweyelashwish is their best album by a long way, it's a really great shoegaze album, and it just has such a better atmosphere than the more ambient/drone direction they seemed to take after their second one (also good, but not quite bloweyelashwish standard)
Dead Kennedys - fresh fruit for rotting vegetables
I don't like them all that much, but I can get to the end of Appetite for Destruction, the other GNR albums don't do much for me at all.
Muse - showbiz. Most people tend to prefer Origin of Symmetry, but they were never as soulful as they were on showbiz I don't think. Unintended and Escape especially are standout tracks in their discography to me.
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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:35 am 
 

I want to second any and all mentions of Epicus Doomicus Metallicus. Candlemass have a ton of great albums, but EDM is an epitome of doom and, well, metal in general, I'd dare to say. I wouldn't change a single thing on it.
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AuditaTremendi
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:57 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:03 pm 
 

Phah. That would be most of the classic deathmetal bands. Nocturnus,Deicide,Death,Possessed,Autopsy,Dismember,Tiamat,Therion,
Gorefest,Sinister,Obituary,Entombed,Unleashed...and more

Further. Slayer,Candlemass,Metallica,Exodus,Testament,Forbidden.

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Xpert74
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:29 pm 
 

AuditaTremendi wrote:
Phah. That would be most of the classic deathmetal bands. ...Autopsy...


Mental Funeral is by far my favorite Autopsy album. Compared to Severed Survival it's a lot more doomy; almost like a more monstrous-sounding version of Hellhammer.
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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:41 pm 
 

Thirding Bonded By Blood as it was the first album that came to mind for me. Tempo Of The Damned did come pretty close in my opinion but the performances are fantastic and the songwriting is ethereal by thrash standards.

Moonspell's Wolfheart was also a pretty damn good debut album in that it covered a lot of genres under an overall goth metal umbrella and had some excellent songs to go along with it. The Antidote and Alpha Noir/Omega White are other favorites of mine but I don't think they ever matched that creativity.

Now that I think about it, it's odd how rare this actually is when you stop and think about it. There are plenty of bands that improved upon an odd debut or have a debut that is evenly matched with a better known counterpart, but there are few bands that have their debut as their best. I suppose there is something to be said for musical evolution.
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TheMizwaOfMuzzyTah
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:55 pm 
 

Mercyful Fate will never top Melissa. Satan's Fall will make sure of that.

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HenryKrinkle31
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:06 pm 
 

TheMizwaOfMuzzyTah wrote:
Mercyful Fate will never top Melissa.


Came here to say just that.
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:15 pm 
 

shouvince wrote:
At this point of time, only Arsis comes to my mind. Quite evidently so...nothing beyond 'A Celebration of Guilt' is as enjoyable in my opinion.


I absolutely agree with this.

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metaldiscussor666
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:47 pm 
 

How about mayhem. I don't know what the heck they were thinking with albums after dom sathanas mysterious whatever. I guess the band died with euronymous. That's why everything after their debut is irrelevant to me. It's not the same band.

There's also bands who changed their style. I didn't like the followup album to cemetery's an evil shade of gray, but I didn't listen to the rest of cemetery's material, so it's not really fair I guess. Same with jag panzer and cenotaph. It's not often that when a band has one album I really like, that completely changes their style, that I look into their different albums. There's just too much more worth while stuff to listen to to spend time on.

I could say nocturnus, but I'm not sure if I like thresholds any less than the key.

TheMizwaOfMuzzyTah wrote:
Mercyful Fate will never top Melissa. Satan's Fall will make sure of that.

No. Don't break the oath is where it's at. An all around more ballsy album imo. I like both though.
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aeternus1990
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:55 pm 
 

90% of all 21st century power metal bands (and some late 90's too). Well, '95-99 era bands like HammerFall, Edguy, Sonata, Nightwish, Iron Savior, Primal Fear, Dark Moor are great at least at their debut, second, third and fourth albums, but later bands haven't such energy, and only their first albums are really powerful.

For all famous 80's bands can't say this because they have at least two or three classic albums that I enjoy. Well, some NWOBHM bands can turn their sound on the second album to more hard rock and became very typical to enjoying it.

So, Diamond Head. Their debut is way more great than the rest of their discography.

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NARAKU666
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:09 pm 
 

Spoiler: show
Image

Image

Image
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Rild
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:23 pm 
 

I'd suggest an additional qualifier for this thread idea that the bands discussed have a significant post-debut career, at least 4 albums in sum. It's kind of pointless to discuss a band whose debut is the best and they've only got 2 or 3 albums out.

I'll add a +1 to the Arsis mentions, A Celebration is their only release worth going back to (with the possible exception of the Diamond of Disease EP).

At the Gates' debut The Red in the Sky is Ours is charmingly creative, but thenceforth the band slid into mediocrity. With Fear I Kiss the Burning Darkness is a significant step down, and everything after that is totally useless.

LIK's Må Ljuset Aldrig Nå Oss Mer is the best of their four album catalogue. The following three are all decent but more of the same and not as good as the debut.

I can't really think of a lot of bands like this. The most common sweet spot seems to be the sophomore.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:36 pm 
 

Terrorizer. Obviously.

Autopsy. Mental Funeral is pretty close, but Severed Survival has more instantly recognizable riffs.

Mayhem. Total no-brainer. DMDS is the black metal archetype. They did nothing like it again.

Unleashed. Where No Life Dwells simply kicks huge amounts of ass. Violent yet catchy.

Gorgoroth. Pentagram is just beautiful and epic in an ugly, primitive way.

Mercyful Fate. How can anyone not love Melissa? Beats the second album because that was more or less a compilation, albeit an awesome one.

Venom. Obviously that band always lacked much in substance, but there's something about the feel and attitude of Welcome To Hell that makes it a monument of its time.

Enslaved. Frost was awesome but didn't reach Vikingligr Veldi's near perfection. More and more that album reminds me of Berliner Schule ambient. It only went downhill from there.

Beherit. No contest. Best utilization of sheer droning primitivity to date.

Satyricon. Yes, I prefer Dark Medieval Times over Nemesis Divina. I feel that it's more coherent and overall more honest, but I can't explain what I mean by that.

Die Apokalyptischen Reiter. Not very well known internationally. Check out their first album, it's fun.

That's it from me for today.

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At the Gates' debut The Red in the Sky is Ours is charmingly creative, but thenceforth the band slid into mediocrity. With Fear I Kiss the Burning Darkness is a significant step down, and everything after that is totally useless.

I second that a thousand times.
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ACM
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:39 pm 
 

I will have to second Melissa. They will never be able to replicate the sheer awesomeness of that album.
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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:32 pm 
 

So seeing as how the full-lengths by Mercyful Fate and Melissa have been mentioned, do EPs not count?
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Zelkiiro
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:54 pm 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
I want to second any and all mentions of Epicus Doomicus Metallicus. Candlemass have a ton of great albums, but EDM is an epitome of doom and, well, metal in general, I'd dare to say. I wouldn't change a single thing on it.

Nightfall gets really, really close to matching it. But yes. As for other titles...

- Dawn of Destiny's Rebellion in Heaven absolutely looms over everything else they've done. Incredibly memorable tunes with high intensity.
- Chalice's Chronicles of Dysphoria is a beautiful combination of doom metal and poppy gothic metal, with some positively chilling moments.
- Flotsam and Jetsam's Doomsday for the Deceiver is a pretty obvious mention, as none of their other albums even come close to matching the raw energy and enthusiasm this one has.
- Gonna second Sonata Arctica's Ecliptica. So much emotion and so much energy, and of course, so many incredibly delicious hooks.
- Type O Negative's Slow, Deep, and Hard really stands out for me. Sure, everything they've done is awesome, but their debut just ekes the rest out by a tiny margin.
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Desperta_Ferro
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:38 pm 
 

Wow, guys, would you really take Ecliptica over, I don't know, Winterhearts Guild or Reckoning Night?

Even I like Silence a little bit more.

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Zelkiiro
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:40 pm 
 

Desperta_Ferro wrote:
Wow, guys, would you really take Ecliptica over, I don't know, Winterhearts Guild or Reckoning Night?

Even I like Silence a little bit more.

Reckoning Night is a close second, Silence is tied with Days of Grays for third, and Winterheart's Guild is bullshit.
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Xpert74
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:28 am
Posts: 284
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:43 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Venom. Obviously that band always lacked much in substance, but there's something about the feel and attitude of Welcome To Hell that makes it a monument of its time.



I prefer both Black Metal and At War With Satan over Welcome to Hell. Welcome to Hell deserves recognition for being first, but as far as general quality is concerned, I like those latter two more than it. Black Metal as a whole feels like a more developed album to me, and the title track alone in At War With Satan is incredible. I also like the rest of the album too, but even if the rest of the album was pretty mediocre, that title track would tip it over in my mind. It's practically 5-10 good songs all mixed together into one long epic.
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Thuderclese
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:38 pm
Posts: 89
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:37 pm 
 

I'd have to add my vote for Entombed's Left Hand Path.

Though I like all of Necrophobic's albums I feel that The Nocturnal Silence is the best of them all.

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odium88
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:11 pm
Posts: 15
Location: Venezuela
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:02 pm 
 

i would say

mayhem - det misteriis dom sathanas

metallica - kill'em all

kroda - cry to me river

violator (from brazil) - chemical assault

sepultura - morbid visions

darkthrone - soulside journey

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