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Jonpo
Hypercolombowler

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:05 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:26 pm 
 

Quote:
Iommi, Osbourne and Butler discussed their new album in a video interview posted at NME.com. Asked how Rubin influenced the band's approach to writing together again, Butler explained, "He sat us down, put the first album on and said 'listen to this', imagine it's 1969, you've just done that, what would you do next?"


Quote:
Iommi added, "It's taken on the flavor of the old stuff in the way we put things together, but with a different look on it."
Back in August, Butler said SABBATH had recorded 15 tracks, with 12 making the final cut, including a song entitled "God Is Dead".


I either missed these items the first time around or forgot about them. I've now moved from no expectations at all to a bit of hope. I realize that info like this has to be taken with a god damn SALT BLOCK but I mean...they wrote a song called God Is Dead. That says good things to be about what kind of mood this album may have. I also love that Rubin wanted to make them do some time travelling. Hopefully he realizes what they WOULDN'T have done directly after that is make something impossibly loud and hollow sounding.

I'm also usually pretty quick to pre-judge an album based on a bad name, but I've gotta say "13" doesn't bother me much. As a few others have mentioned it's a mystical and mysterious number. It's not very far off from a dumb name like say, Vol. 4, in my opinion.
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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:37 pm 
 

All this hatred for Rick Rubin is pretty strange and makes me think you guys don't really know much about his approach to production. I know Trouble had some weird issues with him, but generally he's known as a guy who wants to get an "Honest" sound out of his bands, so he just lets them plug in and do their thing. He had The Cult re-record Electric when they took it to him so that it would sound more live. I dont' think you can blame him for the fact that the last Metallica album sounded so clippingly loud and obnoxious; that was probably done afterwards by the record company...same with that Chili Peppers record that's supposedly completely unlistenable.

I've no doubt that the record will sound ok and that the drummer will do a decent job, as he's got groove and can probably do most of what Bill Ward or Mike Borden could do. Still, I'm not terribly excited, even if the riffs will likely be good ones...
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LegendMaker
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Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:24 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:48 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
All this hatred for Rick Rubin is pretty strange and makes me think you guys don't really know much about his approach to production. I know Trouble had some weird issues with him, but generally he's known as a guy who wants to get an "Honest" sound out of his bands, so he just lets them plug in and do their thing. He had The Cult re-record Electric when they took it to him so that it would sound more live. I dont' think you can blame him for the fact that the last Metallica album sounded so clippingly loud and obnoxious; that was probably done afterwards by the record company...same with that Chili Peppers record that's supposedly completely unlistenable.

Yop. The man did produce 'Reign in Blood' through 'Seasons in the Abyss', and did a fine job of it, I would say. Trouble's self-titled album's production is also okay; not quite my thing and I much prefer the production values of 'Psalm 9', but certainly decent. His work for AC/DC was very good, too. That's about all I know and care about out of his career as a producer, but it's not too shabby in and of itself.

As for 'Death Magnetic', having watched the excruciatingly boring and yet insanely facepalm-worthy making-of/documentary on it (well, about the first half of it, that is, then I fell asleep), I can safely say that every single aspect of its shittiness, including the end-result sound, is entirely the result of the band in general and Lars in particular having literally confused "quality" with "nit-picking" and "content" with "packaging". I swear to Fuck, man, seeing James improvising a third-rate booggie riff on the spot in about 30 seconds, and then the entire band arguing and masturbating for hours on end over every possible minute detail of how they were going to sugar-coat it was so pathetic it hurt. I have no shade of doubt that the production job is exactly what they wanted, down to the last shit molecule of it. Rick Rubin just took the piss and the cash along with it, I think. And also the blame, apparently, for some people, but that's uncalled for.
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TadGhostal
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:45 am 
 

Trouble's issues with Rick were, as I recall, more of a business nature and the way American Records handled the records they recorded for that label as opposed to Rick's production techniques.

The one complaint I've really heard repeatedly from bands that Rick actually produced is that he's too hands off. A lot of times, he shows up, listens to what has been recorded, and then says he either likes or doesn't, and then leaves. The other thing I've heard is that he's absolutely obsessed with the sound of the drums and thinks Phil Rudd is the ultimate drummer. In Eerie Von's book, he talks about how Rick drove Chuck Biscuits insane because he spent hours just doing things like tweaking the sound of the bass drum.

Metallica has a history of questionable-sounding records. I tend to lay the blame on Hetfield and Ulrich more than any of the producers.

I think that if there are any issues with the new Black Sabbath record, it's going to have little to do with either the production or the drummer. My fear is that they play it "safe" and write songs they think that fans "want" or, even worse, they start taking notes from Ozzy's solo stuff.

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Ribos
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:28 pm 
 

By all accounts, Rubin's work that sucks has little to do with him. As mentioned above, he's usually pretty hands-off, and his results when alone are usually quite good.

Greg Fidelman is the problem. World Painted Blood, Death Magnetic, Californication... all had Greg at the mixing boards. High On Fire used him on Snakes For The Divine, and while it's not Californication bad, you can tell he brick-walled that mix, and Rubin had nothing to do with that one.

People are bound to complain about this production job, because I'm sure Ozzy will be too loud. Honestly, if I cam hear him at all, he's too loud. But I'm sure Sharon will do all she can to ensure her husband remains the clear frontman of the band. But that won't be Rubin's fault.
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iAmDisturbed
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:45 pm 
 

HWLights92 wrote:
Smalley wrote:

And Incidentally, the way they butchered the video from those shows is beyond my comprehension. They called the DVD "The Last Supper", and interrupted the live performance with interviews during the songs.


I have the last supper. It's an interesting DVD. I think the problem with it is its billed as a concert DVD when it should be billed as a documentary the way they cut the interviews into the songs. Most of the times it's survivable though....most of the time...


Full of forced camaraderie, I found...
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juicebitch
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:20 pm 
 

Brad Wilk...fuck.... :ugh:
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volutetheswarth
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:28 pm 
 

LegendMaker wrote:
As for 'Death Magnetic', having watched the excruciatingly boring and yet insanely facepalm-worthy making-of/documentary on it (well, about the first half of it, that is, then I fell asleep), I can safely say that every single aspect of its shittiness, including the end-result sound, is entirely the result of the band in general and Lars in particular having literally confused "quality" with "nit-picking" and "content" with "packaging". I swear to Fuck, man, seeing James improvising a third-rate booggie riff on the spot in about 30 seconds, and then the entire band arguing and masturbating for hours on end over every possible minute detail of how they were going to sugar-coat it was so pathetic it hurt. I have no shade of doubt that the production job is exactly what they wanted, down to the last shit molecule of it. Rick Rubin just took the piss and the cash along with it, I think. And also the blame, apparently, for some people, but that's uncalled for.

I watched most of this documentary the other day. Lars is constantly over the sound board like a fly on shit, directing which way the music and final mix should sound, like he's personally handling the production. The drums are obviously too loud in the mix from the get go (the snare is painful) and every one is blind to this. Also the riff James played on the CD towards the end was clearly average with no thought or care but the others flock over it and exclaim 'it's cool'. It's truly a wonder anything remotely good appeared on Death Magnetic. I think Rick Rubin should have let his voice be known instead of letting Lars command the show, he just sits in the background, listens and leaves.

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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:26 pm 
 

volutetheswarth wrote:
he just sits in the background, listens and leaves.


That's the problem. I wouldn't hire someone like that.
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Riffs
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:50 pm 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
volutetheswarth wrote:
he just sits in the background, listens and leaves.


That's the problem. I wouldn't hire someone like that.


That's fair enough.

I must say, though... he's done some great stuff back in the days. That may just be the problem. I consider Rubin's 80s stuff legendary. But that was 3 decades ago. He did some great stuff in the 90s as well and since then... pretty much just paint by numbers.

Artists changes and so do producers.
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marktheviktor
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:59 pm 
 

While I am not crazy about the choice of drummer, it was a creative decision made by this once great band and I will thus reserve judgement until I hear the final product. Maybe I'll be surprised.

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RacoCooper
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:24 pm 
 

I'm going to keep my expectations low. I have full faith in Iommi/Butler to make some great music but Ozzy's sub par vocals and Sharon's influence could ruin the album.

I'm just going to wait and see how it turns out. If it turns out alright, that's great but if it's not I'll just ignore it and keep listening to The Devil You Know.

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Acrobat
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:48 am 
 

While Rubin's certainly done his share of great work (Reign in Blood, South of Heaven, Electric and the first four Danzig records sound fantastic) I was always interested in how he managed to make Trouble sound significantly less awesome on those 1990s albums. Maybe the band wanted to clean up their sound and I guess it works for the self-titled 1990 record. But still, he made a record that sounded a lot flatter and less lively than their Bill Metoyer produced stuff. Then again, Bill Metoyer does fucking rule.

Is this new Sabbath record going to be some sort of double-comeback, then? :lol: I'm not really looking forward to it, but I will be interested to hear the end results (even if I don't expect much good to come of them).

PS, is someone going to introduce Brad Wilk to toms or is he just going to bass-snare-hi-hat hip-hop groove his way through the album? :D
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LegendMaker
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:26 am 
 

ANationalAcrobat wrote:
PS, is someone going to introduce Brad Wilk to toms or is he just going to bass-snare-hi-hat hip-hop groove his way through the album? :D

It's not gonna happen, bro.
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Celestial Alchemist
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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:06 am
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:40 am 
 

I don't understand all the fuss about the absence of Bill Ward. He's just a drummer FFS. He's no Bonzo and he's no Ian Paice either which means he is very much replaceable. The new drummer's initials are the same as Ward's (B.W.), that's close enough for me.

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Razakel
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:59 am 
 

Celestial Alchemist wrote:
The new drummer's initials are the same as Ward's (B.W.), that's close enough for me.


If I believed in sigs I would sig this. Truly amazing.

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MrMcThrasher II
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:53 am 
 

Celestial Alchemist wrote:
I don't understand all the fuss about the absence of Bill Ward. He's just a drummer FFS. He's no Bonzo and he's no Ian Paice either which means he is very much replaceable. The new drummer's initials are the same as Ward's (B.W.), that's close enough for me.

Bill Ward is still up there. Also, personally, I like Ward more than Bonzo. Bonzo was good, but it didn't really show on the studio albums.
NOW with Paice...that's a debate that could go to either side for me, but Paice might have an edge in the fact he can still play his older material.
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Veracs
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:56 am 
 

Are they going to release a sample or what? I'm pretty sure I speak for everyone when I say I wish they'd just get it over with, and prove that it's going to be Ozzy ramrodding awful groove riffs with his awful old man vocals as the song will inevitably sound like an awful b-side from Scream. Does anyone here think there is even a minute chance of a return to form of even something reminiscent of their 80's material?
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DoomMetalAlchemist
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:59 am 
 

Veracs wrote:
Are they going to release a sample or what? I'm pretty sure I speak for everyone when I say I wish they'd just get it over with, and prove that it's going to be Ozzy ramrodding awful groove riffs with his awful old man vocals as the song will inevitably sound like an awful b-side from Scream. Does anyone here think there is even a minute chance of a return to form of even something reminiscent of their 80's material?


"Their 80s material"? You mean 70s? :|

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Razakel
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:38 pm 
 

Veracs seems to be on a ceaseless campaign of self-embarrassment lately.

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Necroticism174
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:43 pm 
 

Lately?
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Veracs
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:54 pm 
 

DoomMetalAlchemist wrote:
Veracs wrote:
Are they going to release a sample or what? I'm pretty sure I speak for everyone when I say I wish they'd just get it over with, and prove that it's going to be Ozzy ramrodding awful groove riffs with his awful old man vocals as the song will inevitably sound like an awful b-side from Scream. Does anyone here think there is even a minute chance of a return to form of even something reminiscent of their 80's material?


"Their 80s material"? You mean 70s? :|


You're delusional if you think they are going to return to their 70's material pure and simple.
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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:28 pm 
 

I'm hoping for something between The Devil You Know and Fused, personally. I know Tony and Geezer have it in them, it just depends on everyone else involved.
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Celestial Alchemist
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:50 pm 
 

When they go on tour, hopefully someone will tell Ozzy to keep his mouth shut during guitar solos.

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DoomMetalAlchemist
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:14 am 
 

Veracs wrote:
DoomMetalAlchemist wrote:

"Their 80s material"? You mean 70s? :|


You're delusional if you think they are going to return to their 70's material pure and simple.


You're far more delusional if you think anybody expects them to return to the sound of their 80s material. :P

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Veracs
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:54 am 
 

I posted that simply because the band has been on a creative evolution since Ozzy left, and if anything it will be another step away from their 70's stuff. I never stated that they were going to return to their 80's material.
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Thing is, Suicide Silence actually are more sonically massive than a good 95% of all the death metal bands in the Archives! Not metal, sure, but definitely a lot more brutal.

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MetalMaidenMal
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:49 am 
 

I'm surprised to see so many people bashing Ozzy's vocals. His voice has never exactly been pretty. Maybe he's lost some quality over the years, but he still sounds like Ozzy. I admit his latest releases haven't been too memorable, but I saw him in 2011 (With Slash opening. Awesome.) and had a great time. Couldn't understand a word he said between songs, but the dude can still perform, and it's impressive enough that he's even still alive after all the shit he's done (Side note: his book is one of the most entertaining things I've ever read). I'm willing to allow for the hopeful possibility that maybe the new album will actually capture something close to their original sound (from what I've read, that is what they're attempting), and even if it does turn out to be a disappointment I still think it's pretty cool that it's happening. I'm not going to go judging it either way before I've heard it.

And as stupid as the title is, how many times do we really need to point that out? It doesn't matter. I know we haven't got a lot else to go on yet, but really, complaining about what it's called is just nitpicking.

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DoomMetalAlchemist
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:10 am 
 

MetalMaidenMal wrote:
I'm surprised to see so many people bashing Ozzy's vocals. His voice has never exactly been pretty. Maybe he's lost some quality over the years, but he still sounds like Ozzy. I admit his latest releases haven't been too memorable, but I saw him in 2011 (With Slash opening. Awesome.) and had a great time. Couldn't understand a word he said between songs, but the dude can still perform, and it's impressive enough that he's even still alive after all the shit he's done (Side note: his book is one of the most entertaining things I've ever read). I'm willing to allow for the hopeful possibility that maybe the new album will actually capture something close to their original sound (from what I've read, that is what they're attempting), and even if it does turn out to be a disappointment I still think it's pretty cool that it's happening. I'm not going to go judging it either way before I've heard it.

And as stupid as the title is, how many times do we really need to point that out? It doesn't matter. I know we haven't got a lot else to go on yet, but really, complaining about what it's called is just nitpicking.


About Ozzy's voice:

I saw Ozzy as a guest on Late Night with Conan O'Brien probably somewhere between 2002-2004. Conan had Ozzy answer a phone at the office at NBC, and then he hands it off to someone who works there. They guy that took the phone tells the person on the other side of the line that she was just speaking with Ozzy Osbourne. She requests that he be put back on so he can sing something. So he sings some Crazy Train.

This wasn't a performance, or a music recording session. No (music) producers, no vocal effects, no studio wizardry. And listening to him sing that was painful. It was as if he had never sang professionally before. And this is coming from someone who loves his vocals with Sabbath.

Actually here's the clip on dailymotion (couldn't find it on youtube). The whole clip is him visiting the office at NBC to cheer up the workers. The bit with the phone starts at about 4:00. When he starts to actually sing is at about 4:30.

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Riffs
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:20 am 
 

The thing with Ozzy is not only his voice but how heavily processed it is. I'm not even sure anyone can even say they've "heard' Ozzy sing in a long time, because it's more like "we've heard a tone of effects, with Ozzy at the other end" for decades now.

And when the vocals are heavily processed, it's often the case with the rest of the album.

Consequently, it's hard to even imagine a Black Sabbath album that would be even remotely similar to the original stripped down, "played almost live in the studio stuff" almost 40 years later.

Regardless, I was very interested in this album but any semblance of magic went away when it was announced Bill Ward wasn't part of it anymore.
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ACM
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:41 am 
 

I am a Sabbath fan from way back when, and I don't have high expectations for this. First off I lost interest when we were told Bill Ward wouldn't be a part of it. Secondly my guess is this will be one very processed album, which is something I am not interested in from Sabbath.

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MetalMaidenMal
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:57 pm 
 

Okay, I see what you guys are saying. Sabbath's debut album was recorded in a day. "Paranoid" was written as a filler song at the last minute and became the title track of their second album and one of their best-known songs. When they started out, they were just four poor English guys who wanted to scare people because there was too much hippie music in the world and their lives were hard. And they invented heavy metal. You can't recapture that sound decades later with a ton of planning, polishing, and processing. I have to acknowledge that.

But they're still Sabbath. Three quarters of Sabbath, anyway. Would I be shocked if it sounded just like the old stuff? Yes. But I'm still hoping they'll pull off something reminiscent of it. You never know what'll happen. Even if there are just a couple great songs or a few classic Sabbath-sounding riffs, I'll be pretty psyched to hear it. Hell, I'll still think it's awesome that they gave it a shot even if the result isn't any good.

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Metallic Shock
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:02 pm 
 

I fail to see how Bill Ward not being involved is such a deal breaker for a lot of people. He was a very underrated drummer yes but he hasn't exactly demonstrated the ability to pull that stuff off nowadays (his drumming on the reunion tour was very subdued), and beyond that he never had a particularly large amount of songwriting input. So really the 2 main original songwriters are there (Geezer and Tony), it's just a question of whether the project will fall victim to the corporate way in the same sense that Ozzy's solo career did or not.

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Subrick
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:07 pm 
 

I think it was a mixture of wanting the original lineup for sentimentality and being pissed at Bill being lowballed by the rest of the band and Sharon.
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MrMcThrasher II
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:46 pm 
 

ACM wrote:
I am a Sabbath fan from way back when, and I don't have high expectations for this. First off I lost interest when we were told Bill Ward wouldn't be a part of it. Secondly my guess is this will be one very processed album, which is something I am not interested in from Sabbath.

My guess? Bill Ward can't play those songs anymore. He's NOT in shape. Which is too bad; he was a favorite drummer of mine.
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ACM
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:06 pm 
 

MrMcThrasher II wrote:
ACM wrote:
I am a Sabbath fan from way back when, and I don't have high expectations for this. First off I lost interest when we were told Bill Ward wouldn't be a part of it. Secondly my guess is this will be one very processed album, which is something I am not interested in from Sabbath.

My guess? Bill Ward can't play those songs anymore. He's NOT in shape. Which is too bad; he was a favorite drummer of mine.
My guess is it involved money. Sharon didn't want to pay Bill, and possibly the other members of Sabbath the same amount Ozzy would make from royalties. Bill said screw that and walked. Sharon calls the shots when it comes to money for Ozzy. He even states this himself in I Am Ozzy.

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Subrick
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:08 pm 
 

MrMcThrasher II wrote:
ACM wrote:
I am a Sabbath fan from way back when, and I don't have high expectations for this. First off I lost interest when we were told Bill Ward wouldn't be a part of it. Secondly my guess is this will be one very processed album, which is something I am not interested in from Sabbath.

My guess? Bill Ward can't play those songs anymore. He's NOT in shape. Which is too bad; he was a favorite drummer of mine.


Sabbath isn't Nile. The stuff's not that hard to play, even for someone at Bill Ward's age.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:13 pm 
 

This was all settled a long time ago now. Bill isn't a part of this because he couldn't come to terms with Ozzy and the rest of the band/the label on a good enough agreement, that would allow him a respectable contract. It's a decent enough excuse and I can fully see why he'd feel that way.
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Riffs
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:41 pm 
 

Metallic Shock wrote:
I fail to see how Bill Ward not being involved is such a deal breaker for a lot of people. He was a very underrated drummer yes but he hasn't exactly demonstrated the ability to pull that stuff off nowadays (his drumming on the reunion tour was very subdued), and beyond that he never had a particularly large amount of songwriting input. So really the 2 main original songwriters are there (Geezer and Tony), it's just a question of whether the project will fall victim to the corporate way in the same sense that Ozzy's solo career did or not.


It"s not his skills that are missed, it's the eclectic nature of his style.

You can have killer riffs all you want, monotonous drumming will kill it. The reason a lot of the early Sabbath stuff holds on is because he contributes in pushing Iommi and Geezer to explore different styles of grooves and signatures and the three of them would vary between being in perfect unison or each playing their own parts like their in different universes.

Granted, Bill was already declining back in the days and it is doubtful he would have been as awesome. But the mindset is important as well. He has that mindset. And if you're gonna try and create reunion magic, you might as well have all the ingredients. Taking some random asshole from a shitty band is not going to help create that magic.

There is a second fact. Out of all the members, Bill has been the most remote from the scene and the business since the Sabbath days. All the other members have been pretty active with tons of projects and keeping up with the music scene. The premise of Rick Rubin is interesting: Imagine you have just recorded your first album: what are you doing next?

On that count, Bill is probably the one who can most remember those times and the one who is least removed from that part of his life because out of all the members, he is the one who doesn't seem to have moved on from his old days in Sabbath.

Not saying the album would have been perfect with Bill... but very disappointed they don't go all the way, especially since this is very much their last shot at producing anything of significance. None of these guys are getting younger and, as the death of Dio demonstrates, everything can end abruptly. I thought this chapter of their lives and career could have ended better is all.

But then I remember both Iommi and Ozzy are renowned for fucking things up with band mates, so maybe it was just a pipe dream to begin with.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:19 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
Sabbath isn't Nile. The stuff's not that hard to play, even for someone at Bill Ward's age.


Playing a 2 hour show every night (or, more realistically, 3 nights a week) after having several heart attacks in the past 15 years might prove somewhat tricky, though? :P
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:58 am 
 

In this revealing interview, Geezer says that 13 is only the tentative title for the album, and that he wrote lyrics for 14 or the 16 songs. I really hope that 16 songs don't actually make it on the album and that they choose the best 10 or so. Anyway, that's good news to me.

http://eddietrunk.com/eddie-trunk-inter ... ideo-here/

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