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BaloroftheEvilEye
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
Posts: 1623
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:59 am 
 

Those people, meaning someone who makes mountains out of molehills and obsesses over the most trivial shit imaginable. I thought you meant actual misogyny, like bitter men talking about how women are all whores something, but claiming a silly cliche is some sort of sinister, impacting problem is just sad. Do you also believe that video games cause school shootings, by any chance?

matras wrote:
And I'm talking about metal lyrics, not American TV shows (don't try to change the subject).
And yes, the "damsel in distress" is denigrating. And yes; it is mostly in power metal, but as you can scroll up and read again: I said across the board. In other genres of metal? How is it there BaloroftheEvilEye?



I'm not trying to change the subject, I'm pointing out a very narrow minded approach to gender issues that has become common among modern feminists, and something that has become more and more akin to censorship.
Again, I don't see how it's bad, like... at all. Does the song explicitly state that women are incapable of helping themselves? No, it probably tells a very simple heroic fantasy story, that has probably been told thousands of times. But feel free to demonstrate or provide tangible evidence that it is in anyway harmful.
But seriously, this is no different from the vehemently anti-metal people that think it breeds violence and Satanism, and considering how actually prevalent those kinds of lyrics are in metal, there is a disappointingly low amount of murders, mutilations and Satan worshipping in the metal scene.
As for other genres of metal... I'm going to be very careful here. I have not listened to every metal band in existence, and taking into account that I have no idea what most of the lyrics are in death and black metal are just from listening to it, from the hundreds of bands I have heard, I would say that actual sexism, misogyny, is just not an issue, certainly not a prevalent one and I can't imagine myself listening to one. Now, if I scrounge through the archives looking up lyrics for every song in my collection, I might find something, but off the top of my head, I can only picture Manowar as even remotely fitting that description, and Manowar and it's camp and pomp is just not something I can take very seriously, but perhaps I'm just afraid of myself and/or Manowar.


mindshadow wrote:
Women should stay at home to raise their children as only they can impart a certain love that is crucial to a harmonious society, beneficial to all. This should not be seen as a servient role, but a crucial one. I believe many problems in the west stem from families having no choice but to leave the care of their most precious possession to, often, complete strangers.



I disagree with this part. Women shouldn't have to do anything, but a child is a big responsibility and it at least needs a lot of attention from one, or ideally both parents.


Last edited by BaloroftheEvilEye on Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7741
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:41 am 
 

At the end of the day, the worst thing metal does is denigrate women with its lyrics. Not a good thing, no, but is it on the same level as what conservatism, Christianity and especially Islam do or have done in the past?
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Xlxlx
May contain traces of nuts

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:52 am 
 

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
At the end of the day, the worst thing metal does is denigrate women with its lyrics.

And, also at the end of the day, it's pretty much just retarded BDM and pornogrind bands who do that.
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henkkjelle
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:10 pm 
 

And, also at the end of the day, It's only retarted people who buy into that.
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matras
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:01 am
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:15 pm 
 

No I'm certainly not one of "those" people, or at least I'm not identifying with them.

The point I was trying to make, and which you still seem to have missed, is the fact about generalization. Metal as a whole (something that in many ways is a part of culture wether a person likes it or not) is really objectifying of women. Sure; entertainment media as a whole is too, but what we were talking about was religion and metal. My point was that if you are willing to talk in sweeping and generalizing terms about religion, why can't you do the same about metal? And in sweeping, generalizing terms metal isn't really a very respectful place for women, regardless wether you talk about lyrics, attitude or behaviour.

I'm not saying that it is the biggest problem that people who care about women's rights face, far from it. But denial and lack of self-reflection is a dangerous thing for any subculture, regardless if it is about music, politics etc etc.

This for example, is about industrial music. I recommend anyone to read it, and I for one see parallells to metal culture.

http://coilhouse.net/2012/11/on-misogyn ... ial-music/

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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:37 pm 
 

Metal is a form of music, while religion consists of a set of beliefs. They're completely different things, which in turn means that you can't apply the same criticisms to both.
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matras
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:01 am
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:45 pm 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
Metal is a form of music, while religion consists of a set of beliefs. They're completely different things, which in turn means that you can't apply the same criticisms to both.


Let me add: "Blue is another colour than red" (if we're stating the obvious).
But kidding aside:
I'm not. And where have I said that they're the same thing? o_O And where have I criticized religion?

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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:55 pm 
 

Never said that you either criticized religion (though I wouldn't have complained about that) or that you said that they were the same thing. I was simply stating that, for the reasons I just mentioned, it's rather difficult to take two massively different things and put them in a similar perspective. You can definitely discuss metal's relationship with religion, as the latter obviously had influence in the former (though not in the way that religious authorities would like, really).
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:16 pm 
 

You have yet to produce any of the evidence I asked for. Your claim that metal as a whole is sexist is thus far unsupported, all the while stating that it is of course apparent regardless, as is your claim that simple story cliches is harmful in any real way.
That one article is seemingly an attack on sexual expression in industrial (ie, not metal) music, and even mentions that it's fans, male and female, dress up in fetish gear for some of the shows, and it's very clear the author has an agenda moving her hands on the keyboard.
And where are the parallels in metal subculture? Again, this board, one of the most popular metal sites, is mostly very supportive of women in the scene and a few of the mods running it are also women. You've made this seemingly bogus claim, the burden of proof lies on you.
What actual verifiable damage do these lyrics do? Why haven't the gore and death obsessed bands inspired countless murder?
Now I don't know a damn thing about industrial, so I'm not going to say it's either sexist or not, but what I will say is that an artist should express him or herself as he or she sees fit, and controversy even from a sexual angle has long been a cornerstone of art.
And it seems like you have a real problem with allowing people to have freedom to express themselves when no actual harm is coming from it, I wish I knew why. So here's the thing: no-one is forcing you to listen to anything you don't agree with. You're welcome to be offended by what appears to be an obsession with an image of sexual excess in industrial music, but don't expect an artist (if that's what they see themselves as) to alter their craft to suit you, especially when, according to that article you posted, plenty of their female fans embrace all that kind of fetish shit (one of my friends does as well) and indulges in it. BDSM isn't unique to men only, again, it even mentions in the article that some women have rape fetishes. It's weird as fuck, but so what? Wasn't 50 Shades of Gray one of the bestselling books of all time among women? I mean, who are you to say what people are allowed to enjoy and wear? If a band bothers you, listen to something else.

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Riffs
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 am
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Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:18 pm 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
Metal is a form of music, while religion consists of a set of beliefs. They're completely different things


Are they?

I've been thinking about this for a long while now and see a lot of parallels.

But regardless if you agree with this premise or not, Matras' points stands. Because religions (whether we believe they are true or not) remain cultural systems, just like music. And from an anthropological standpoint, I'd say music and entertainment's impact is increasing globally, while religions' is decreasing.
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Xlxlx
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Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:21 pm 
 

Now..... That is an interesting viewpoint, Riffs. I'll have to read more into the subject. You have picked my interest.
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BaloroftheEvilEye
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
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Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:24 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:
Xlxlx wrote:
Metal is a form of music, while religion consists of a set of beliefs. They're completely different things


Are they?

I've been thinking about this for a long while now and see a lot of parallels.

But regardless if you agree with this premise or not, Matras' points stands. Because religions (whether we believe they are true or not) remain cultural systems, just like music. And from an anthropological standpoint, I'd say music and entertainment's impact is increasing globally, while religions' is decreasing.



Are you sure? I know Islam is the fastest growing religion, but exactly how fast, I wonder? Christianity, is of course, dwindling. The big question is why isn't Islam, in countries with good education?

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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:26 pm 
 

Because Islam and good education aren't compatible, Balor.
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:27 pm 
 

Sorry, I meant why is it growing in countries with good education?

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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:31 pm 
 

Probably has something to do with massive immigration, plus governments being too pussyficated when it comes to tell Muslims that they can't implement their beliefs as law (as a video I posted in the previous page seems to indicate).
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:37 pm 
 

I'm optimistic that that will change. A good friend of mine moved to Sweden and he completely changed his view on Muslims when most of the immigrants he met said they hated the way things were back in Iran. Most were moderate, some only Muslim in name only, a bit like how Christianity is here.

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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:39 pm 
 

Yeah, the problem isn't with Muslims in general. It's just with the ones that think that whatever hokum they believe should be enforced by the government and respected by everyone. In that way, it's the same problem people have with fundies.
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BaloroftheEvilEye
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
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Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:48 pm 
 

Well Ireland went through most of the last century being practically owned by the Vatican and most people wouldn't hurry to go back to something similar if they knew how bad things could get. And in relation to this thread topic, it wouldn't be a place for metal to thrive.

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Riffs
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 am
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Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:38 pm 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
And from an anthropological standpoint, I'd say music and entertainment's impact is increasing globally, while religions' is decreasing.



Are you sure? I know Islam is the fastest growing religion, but exactly how fast, I wonder? Christianity, is of course, dwindling. The big question is why isn't Islam, in countries with good education?[/quote]

These things are difficult to measure because different polls ask different questions and the results are difficult to interpret. For instance, lots of people who identify as Christians, Muslims, etc... answer they do not completely adhere to the Faith, or are none practicing, or do not believe in God. These numbers are also growing.

From the various studies and surveys I saw, Christianity is in decline, Islam has grown as far as people who identify as such. But globally, pretty much every study shows religions are in decline with atheism on the rise.

The numbers become really alarming for religious institutions when you check the actual demographics. Youth are much less likely to identify as follower of a religion and they're also more likely to jump from one system of belief to the next like fucking idiots following trends. They're also more likely to be "flexible" in their beliefs (in effect, handpicking what they like or not from a particular faith).

So globally, more people are turning to atheism (or what some of them believe to be atheism, because I believe a lot of people have replaced religion with other forms of spirituality and devotion). I don't think this trend is gonna be reversed anytime soon. At a global level, it looks like religion is losing the grip it once had and this effect is noticeable from one generation to the next.

Of course, any nation or region facing turmoil and particularly gruesome challenges is more likely to to have surges of religious fervor, which may explain in part what's going on with Islamism.
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MetalMaidenMal
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:31 am
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:50 am 
 

I know this has drifted back to religious discussion, but as a woman I'd like to weigh in on the sexism thing. I've never felt that metal is even slightly sexist. I think metal is a very positive genre that promotes self-confidence and independent thought, regardless of gender. Most metal songs I know that mention women are just about having sex with them, which is logical since most metal musicians are men and most men are sexually attracted to women. I don't see anything misogynistic about sex, as long as it's not actual rape. As for the damsel in distress story, I think at worst it's innocent sexism in the same way that Speedy Gonzales is innocent racism. Stereotypes aren't always malicious. They're a problem if we let them be our only means of defining things, but if they crop up now and then, it's really not a big deal. Besides, if you doubt my ability to take on a dragon, I won't call that misogyny. It's pretty reasonable. If the guy in the story got captured while unarmed and wearing a dress, he could probably use some help too.

However, I am very offended by mindshadow's assertion that women are obligated to take care of children. Only a women can "impart a certain love"? That is ridiculous bullshit. A kid needs SOMEONE to take care of them and teach them, and sure, love them too. But if I ever have a kid, the father and I will both take on that responsibility. It won't be my special job to raise it just because I'm the one who carried it around for nine months. I'd like to quote Rush right back at him:

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose free will.

That's my philosophy. I'm not destined or obligated to do anything because anyone's god or ancient book says so, or because I have a vagina, or for any other reason. My life is my own. And equality for women does not mean "They're just as important as we big strong men because someone has to watch the babies." (By the way, if you live in a modern human civilization, physical strength really isn't that much of an advantage anymore). It means that our sex should be completely irrelevant to what we're allowed or expected to do or be.

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kapala
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:56 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:42 am 
 

Riffs wrote:


From the various studies and surveys I saw, Christianity is in decline, Islam has grown as far as people who identify as such. But globally, pretty much every study shows religions are in decline with atheism on the rise.


This is pretty much spot on re: Islam on the rise. Not only that, most religious authorities claim "their" chosen belief-system is on the rise - look at Christianity. It's not exactly easy to measure the number of conversions vs. the number of people leaving a specified faith, so while some statistics may show that the amount of people identifying as "muslim" has risen, these statistics often don't count the number of individuals no longer identifying with said faith. That, and the assimilation of so-called "tribal" people, who may have a set of beliefs vaguely relating to "Islam", but hadn't self-identified as Muslim in the past (though I'm not sure how significant these figures are).
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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:59 am 
 

MetalMaidenMal wrote:
However, I am very offended by mindshadow's assertion that women are obligated to take care of children. Only a women can "impart a certain love"? That is ridiculous bullshit. A kid needs SOMEONE to take care of them and teach them, and sure, love them too. But if I ever have a kid, the father and I will both take on that responsibility. It won't be my special job to raise it just because I'm the one who carried it around for nine months. I'd like to quote Rush right back at him:


Not any woman, a childs own mother, and I should have added upto the age of 5, then of course they should go to school.
But nursery school ruins kids behaviour. Here they take kids from the age of one, the first few years (1-4?) are crucial and only a mother can give the time and love that the child needs to learn manners, caring and respect. We need to live in a society that enables the mother to stay home caring for her child.

Many problems in the teen years and adulthood can be traced back to the early stages in a childs development.
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Last edited by mindshadow on Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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kapala
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:56 pm
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:37 am 
 

MetalMaidenMal wrote:
I know this has drifted back to religious discussion, but as a woman I'd like to weigh in on the sexism thing. I've never felt that metal is even slightly sexist. I think metal is a very positive genre that promotes self-confidence and independent thought, regardless of gender. Most metal songs I know that mention women are just about having sex with them, which is logical since most metal musicians are men and most men are sexually attracted to women. I don't see anything misogynistic about sex, as long as it's not actual rape. As for the damsel in distress story, I think at worst it's innocent sexism in the same way that Speedy Gonzales is innocent racism. Stereotypes aren't always malicious. They're a problem if we let them be our only means of defining things, but if they crop up now and then, it's really not a big deal. Besides, if you doubt my ability to take on a dragon, I won't call that misogyny. It's pretty reasonable. If the guy in the story got captured while unarmed and wearing a dress, he could probably use some help too.

However, I am very offended by mindshadow's assertion that women are obligated to take care of children. Only a women can "impart a certain love"? That is ridiculous bullshit. A kid needs SOMEONE to take care of them and teach them, and sure, love them too. But if I ever have a kid, the father and I will both take on that responsibility. It won't be my special job to raise it just because I'm the one who carried it around for nine months. I'd like to quote Rush right back at him:

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose free will.

That's my philosophy. I'm not destined or obligated to do anything because anyone's god or ancient book says so, or because I have a vagina, or for any other reason. My life is my own. And equality for women does not mean "They're just as important as we big strong men because someone has to watch the babies." (By the way, if you live in a modern human civilization, physical strength really isn't that much of an advantage anymore). It means that our sex should be completely irrelevant to what we're allowed or expected to do or be.


Why are lyrics mentioning "just" having sex with women okay, but mindshadow's opinion not? Both are reducing a woman's worth to their vaginas.

What do you think about pop culture, then?
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MetalMaidenMal
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Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:31 am
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:30 am 
 

All I'm saying is that it's unfair to say a mother HAS to stay home with her child, and I don't buy that she automatically has a stronger bond with it than the father does. What evidence is there to support that idea? If a woman has a baby and she has a really strong career or other stuff going on in her life, and it makes more sense for the father to be the main stay-at-home parent, she's not failing as a mother by continuing to work. I also think you're being unfair to families where both parents have to work to be able to support their child. That might mean the kid has to spend some time in day care or being watched by other relatives or whatever, but they're still doing the best they can and it doesn't always have to be a bad experience. Plus there are plenty of people out there who were raised by single dads or even gay couples, who might resent the idea that a man could never have as loving a relationship with his children as a woman can. The bottom line is that there are a lot of possible ways for a family to work, and I don't think it's unreasonable of me to dislike being pigeonholed into one role. I don't want to be a housewife. I want to have my own life even if I do have a child someday, so yes, I have a negative reaction to being told that as a woman it's automatically my job to sit at home with the kid all the time until it grows up enough to go to school. I'm not trying to start an argument and I don't want to sound oversensitive or anything, but I just don't like being told I have to do something because of my gender. It would be equally unfair to say that all men have to work. Those are the traditional roles, but there's no reason that it has to be that way for everyone. Different things work for different people.

Now, why do I feel offended by that but not by sexual lyrics? Because if I listen to a song and it's just about the guy having sex with some chick... it's not telling me that I have to or can't or should or shouldn't do anything because I'm a woman. It's just describing the events of one night. Sex is a natural part of life, and a fun part of life for that matter, and the woman in the song is probably enjoying it just as much as the man is. She's not being forced. I'm not claiming you couldn't find a misogynistic metal band with disturbing rape lyrics and such if you looked for one. I'm sure they're out there, just like there are black metal bands who actually promote burning churches. There are a few violent wackos in any group. But if we look at overall trends, I don't see a prevailing theme of misogyny in metal. Bands like Motley Crue and the Scorpions sing plenty about sex, but they never say that that's all women are good for. That's just what they're doing in those songs, and I don't see anything wrong with it, because sex isn't inherently degrading to women any more than it is to men.

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BaloroftheEvilEye
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Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:45 am 
 

I have to agree with Maiden. Although I do believe the role of a mother is very important to a child, it's very important that deciding to work and share the responsibility in minding a child, instead of being a housewife is a personal choice. What's most important is that the child has the attention of parents, not which parent is giving it.

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kapala
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:56 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:51 am 
 

MetalMaidenMal wrote:

Now, why do I feel offended by that but not by sexual lyrics? Because if I listen to a song and it's just about the guy having sex with some chick... it's not telling me that I have to or can't or should or shouldn't do anything because I'm a woman. It's just describing the events of one night. Sex is a natural part of life, and a fun part of life for that matter, and the woman in the song is probably enjoying it just as much as the man is. She's not being forced. I'm not claiming you couldn't find a misogynistic metal band with disturbing rape lyrics and such if you looked for one. I'm sure they're out there, just like there are black metal bands who actually promote burning churches. There are a few violent wackos in any group. But if we look at overall trends, I don't see a prevailing theme of misogyny in metal. Bands like Motley Crue and the Scorpions sing plenty about sex, but they never say that that's all women are good for. That's just what they're doing in those songs, and I don't see anything wrong with it, because sex isn't inherently degrading to women any more than it is to men.


Are you offended by how hip hop portrays women?
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:24 am 
 

Hip hop has a heavy emphasis on women as prostitutes or whores. Does metal?

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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:01 am 
 

MetalMaidenMal wrote:
I don't want to be a housewife. I want to have my own life even if I do have a child someday



But surely once you have a child your life is no longer your own, that's my point, your life now takes second precedence to making sure Your child has the best possible start in life.

Women want careers then decide to have a baby, and after it's born expect to carry on as normal, wondering why several years later their getting phone calls from school/carers about their child running amok.
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:07 am 
 

This is ridiculous. Both my parents work,a s do the parents of many people I know and I was always well-behaved in class, too much so.

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Xlxlx
May contain traces of nuts

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:10 am 
 

Oh shut up, Mindshadow. The criteria you're using to argue with Maiden can be used just the same with men. Or what, you think that guys aren't capable of loving and supporting their offspring in a competent enough way?
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kapala
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:56 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:11 am 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
Hip hop has a heavy emphasis on women as prostitutes or whores. Does metal?


Grave "Sexual Mutilation" comes to mind, if we want to take a step back from some of the more borderline, mainstream stuff. MetalMaiden used Mötley Crüe as an example. I wouldn't, for example, consider "She Goes Down", as portraying women in any different light than some of the more maligned hip hop artists. The difference is who is delivering the message...
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BaloroftheEvilEye
Metalhead

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Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:27 am 
 

In fairness most bands with those kind of themes involve butchering men as well. As for hip hop, well, maybe because I just fucking hate most of it, I see it as just much, much more trashier, and the women it features in music videos even more so, and as an aside, don't a lot of the big female artists in the genre sing about themselves in a similar way?

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matras
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:01 am
Posts: 870
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:44 am 
 

Sorry for the late answer Balor (haven't been at the computer).

So, in short, you want me to prove that metal, generally speaking, as a genre is denigrating and belittling to women if we generalize it (i.e. the genre)?

I've asked you to read a 100 song lyrics where women are mentioned see how they're portrayed (and in all honesty; that was kinda a figure of speech... I don't expect you to do it.)
When I do that, I see women as generally portrayed as (1) something to have sex with, (2) something to torture, mutilate and kill or (3) something to conquer/win.
Not always, but generally.

And reducing people (as defined by if they have a vagina or not) to objects, is denigrating in my point of view.

Don't get me wrong, I listen mostly to death metal of all stripes. But what I'm talking about is a generalization.

And all this talk like "it's not bad to be considered a sex-object, everybody like sex" that I infer from MetalMaidenMal: yeah, but you're still objectified.

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kapala
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:56 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:12 pm 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
In fairness most bands with those kind of themes involve butchering men as well. As for hip hop, well, maybe because I just fucking hate most of it, I see it as just much, much more trashier, and the women it features in music videos even more so, and as an aside, don't a lot of the big female artists in the genre sing about themselves in a similar way?


Hip hop doesn't often portray men in a favourable light, either. Snitches, "biters", etc., and I wouldn't say some of the ladies in the cock rock videos of the 80s, Mötley Crüe, for the sake of continuing with the example, are much different than some of the women in hip hop videos today, would you? You don't even really need to go that far back, I'm sure.
I realize we've gotten away from metal a bit, but to go back to, say, the Grave example. "Die you fucking whore". Is this different than hip hop? Or is it just because you like metal, and dislike most hip hop?
My point is, the content hasn't changed much, but the messengers have.
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:00 pm 
 

matras wrote:
Sorry for the late answer Balor (haven't been at the computer).

So, in short, you want me to prove that metal, generally speaking, as a genre is denigrating and belittling to women if we generalize it (i.e. the genre)?

I've asked you to read a 100 song lyrics where women are mentioned see how they're portrayed (and in all honesty; that was kinda a figure of speech... I don't expect you to do it.)
When I do that, I see women as generally portrayed as (1) something to have sex with, (2) something to torture, mutilate and kill or (3) something to conquer/win.
And reducing people (as defined by if they have a vagina or not) to objects, is denigrating in my point of view.
Not always, but generally.


(1)Thanks for pointing this out. I was confused as to why I was looking at this hot woman in the pub the other week. I thought it was a simple cold, but little did I know, I'd caught a case of patriarchitus from listening to too much misogynistic music. I'll stop listening for a couple of weeks and hopefully those unnatural sexual desires will just disparate and I'll go back to being an asexual androgynous person like everyone else that doesn't listen to music about women debasing themselves for some evil male fantasy. I can really see that this kind of dreck seriously changes how I view women.

(2)No men are mutilated in metal songs or murdered? How exactly should a gore-themed band treat women in it's lyrics anyway?

(3)I can't believe this needs to be explained: Men are -by and large- sexually attracted to women. This is, seemingly, a very natural process that has ensured our continued survival since Lucy met Dick. Now, because of this sexual attraction, women that men are specifically interested in are a kind of prize for them, and winning that prize, is one of the greatest victories in life. This does not mean that women are only objects to fuck, it is not their only value to men or themselves, nor should it be, nor are they obliged allow themselves to be won, though plenty enjoy the attention as do most of us, but it means they are highly valued for some very simple biological reasons. You cannot demand men to not be sexually attracted and to not treat some women as revered objects of that attraction, especially when it is a biological imperative to do so. That this is so often reflected in even our oldest legends shows how integral to our psyche sexual desire is.


Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I listen mostly to death metal of all stripes. But what I'm talking about is a generalization.

Which has thus far failed to display how it has any real-world consequences.



Quote:
And all this talk like "it's not bad to be considered a sex-object, everybody like sex" that I infer from MetalMaidenMal: yeah, but you're still objectified.


Yes, please, please tell her how to feel. Women cannot think for themselves and most be told exactly what offends them.

Quote:
Hip hop doesn't often portray men in a favourable light, either. Snitches, "biters", etc., and I wouldn't say some of the ladies in the cock rock videos of the 80s, Mötley Crüe, for the sake of continuing with the example, are much different than some of the women in hip hop videos today, would you? You don't even really need to go that far back, I'm sure.
I realize we've gotten away from metal a bit, but to go back to, say, the Grave example. "Die you fucking whore". Is this different than hip hop? Or is it just because you like metal, and dislike most hip hop?
My point is, the content hasn't changed much, but the messengers have.


I don't know what "snitches" and "biters" is, but if you're threatening my life with your modern mobster rap lingo, I assure you, I am a very dangerous person to deal with!
Seriously though, it's hardly prevalent in metal, and as an excuse to Grave, a band I admittedly don't listen to, isn't death metal, Hell, a lot of metal in general, about being offensive and morbid? Slayer sang about Nazism and all kinds of shit, but it was all horror stories and shock-value to them. I mean, don't get me wrong. I am sure among the thousands of bands there are more than a handful that genuinely despise women and see them as trash or inferior, but let's be honest here, that's just not true for the majority of metal.

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matras
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:01 am
Posts: 870
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:26 pm 
 

Balor, I can't feel anything other than that you're totally missing the point in what I'm trying to say. But that's ok. Thing is though, I can't help but feel that you're seemeingly taking this personally; like you're a "bad bad misogynist" for listening to metal (and for the record: misogyny isn't the same thing as sexism, a thing many here seem to confuse). That was what I tried to illustrate with saying I listen mostly to death metal. But hey: swoosh! (The sound of the point flying over your head).

Yeah definitely. There's lots of men getting mutilated, castrated and what not in the lyrics. But how's the ratio between men and women, and what does that say?

A quick search on the archives gives 4088 song titles with these words in them: "cunt", "bitch", "whore" and "slut". That's quite a few, don't you think?

And you're definitely putting words in my mouth there old chap, when saying that I'm telling how MetalMaidenMal should feel, or who should be offended by what.

But what fascinates me a lot here, is how you seem to think this is directed at you personally.

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BaloroftheEvilEye
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
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Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:42 pm 
 

Assuming there's an average of three releases per band at an average of 10 per release (someone can give much more accurate data than that, it could well be less), of the 88672 bands listed, that accounts foooorrrr... 0.024434620473956455% of metal, assuming of course those songs are 100% sexist or misogynist, and not just common shock factor. That is not what I call prevalent by any stretch, prevalent meaning dominant or powerful, but perhaps you have a different definition to me.
Still waiting for hard proof showing negative results from lyrics about women in metal bands, or what's wrong with writing about women from a sexually suggestive standpoint.

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MetalMaidenMal
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:31 am
Posts: 29
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:03 pm 
 

Thank you, Balor. You seem to be the only one who really understands the point I was making: That being sexually attracted to women, wanting to have sex with a particular woman, and acting on those natural urges with her full consent, does not have to come with the implication that she's not good for anything else or that any disrespect is meant. If the song doesn't explicitly say anything to indicate otherwise, I will always assume that the woman involved is up for it, that's she's being treated with respect (sexual acts and respectful behavior are not mutually exclusive), and that it's fully understood that she is a person with thoughts and feelings and a whole life of her own, even though the role she's presently playing is the role of sex partner.

She Goes Down? When I mentioned Motley Crue, I wondered if someone would bring up that song. Okay, it's about getting a blowjob and enjoying it. Is it misogynistic or sexist to enjoy sexual favors? I don't think so. If the woman were being forced or coerced into performing that act when she wasn't comfortable with doing so, yes, it would be very denigrating. But if she's choosing to do it of her own free will because she wants to make the guy feel good, then that's her choice and there's nothing denigrating about it. It's not offensive for men to sing about being attracted to women. If you think it is, why don't you consider the opposite situation: a woman singing sexually charged lyrics in a metal band. For example, Halestorm's "I Get Off." Is Lzzy Hale objectifying herself? Is she objectifying men? I don't think so. She's just singing about a sexual situation where both people involved are into it and having a good time, and I don't see how that's offensive to anybody.

When asked about hip hop, I want to be careful about my answer, because frankly, I don't know a lot of hip hop, I really dislike what I have heard, and for those reasons it can be tempting to just go flaming it, but I want to avoid being unfair or judging it by a different standard when I don't know much about it. Not really knowing any hip hop lyrics, I have to give a very general answer: If it's about sex, it's not automatically offensive just for that reason. If it explicitly says that sex is all women are good for or that it's okay to force women into sex or anything like that, obviously there's something offensive there. Personally, I hate what I know of hip hop not because of any wounded femininity, but because of the lack of creativity I perceive. In my experience it always seems to be one simple beat with nothing more interesting going on musically, and some guy speaking cliched lyrics that don't put any new spin on it. I think one could try to make the case that hip hop is more sexist based on this trend: In metal songs about sex, the emphasis is usually on how much fun the sex is, and just having a good time, whereas in hip hop songs about sex, the focus seems more on bragging about the fact that they got sex. There's a bit more of a trophy thing going on there. But again, I don't want to generalize too much on a subject I'm largely ignorant of. The most I will say for sure is that with hip hop, I don't find it interesting musically, so it seems like it's lazily relying just on sex appeal to sell, which I find a bit pointless, although still not inherently offensive.

As for metal bands who sing about mutilation and such, obviously men and women alike can reasonably find them offensive and choose not to listen to them. For me personally, intent matters. I'm not too bothered myself because when I look at lyrics by someone like Cannibal Corpse, I can't take them seriously. I know they don't really go around doing the things they sing about. They just write offensive lyrics BECAUSE they're offensive. That's their thing. Shock value. I can't blame people for being offended, but I myself am not, because it's just a gimmick. They're playing characters, quite apart from whatever their personal beliefs might be. The number of such bands who actually believe in the offensive material they're writing is very small.

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6403
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:30 pm 
 

MetalMaidenMal, I'm glad there are new posters that are willing to put considerable effort into articulating their opinions, and have sensible, rational thoughts.

I'd like to nitpick on your post somewhat, having just discussed this subject (or something bordering on it anyhow) with another user, and all these thoughts fresh in mind. Death metal lyricists' reasons for writing offensive, violent lyrics are probably extremely varied. It would be strange if so many long lasting, devoted death metal bands (with enough passion in the musical department to disprove any doubts as to whether their motivations to maintain certain aesthetics are genuine) were still inspired to write obscene lyrics merely for shock value. Dan Greening, whose lyrics I particularly adore (and that were extremely graphic and disgusting in ways that the bland murder and torture lyrics of most contemporaries could hardly match), seemingly writes out of morbid fascination with those atrocious subjects. In order for the death metal vocalist to be able to perform hateful vocals for violent music, it may be required for the lyrics to be quite hideous, and of course, it's a way to set the atmosphere for the listener.

Another factor is the power of tradition. Norms established at the genre's formation are still in effect to a great extent. With the amount of violent entertainment we're provided through movies, games, television, and even literature, it's an easy subject to write decently about, and deviating from this conveniently normative approach can be seen as too much of a hassle, simply. I refuse to accept godsonsafari's view that death metal musicians simply hold within themselves unusually strong violent feelings that they must express through music, but that can be the case for some individuals. This is purely anecdotical, but Dan Greening quit a relatively famous death metal band to become a teacher.
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BaloroftheEvilEye
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
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Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:06 pm 
 

Quote:
Thank you, Balor

Thank you, actually, it's very difficult for a man to comment on gender/sexual issues with any kind of contention to what may or may not be bad for women, and not without reason, but it's still frustrating all the same, however, to Matras' credit, he/she has not attacked me as a male misunderstanding something inherently problematic to women but rather my viewpoint directly.

@Ilwhyan, I don't think for a second that there's no bands out there that honestly believe what they right about (I'm discussing NSBM in the Fanisk thread for example), but the question is how prevalent is it? I mean, Carcass wrote about absurd gore, but they're vegetarians, or were back then. Like MetalMaiden says, it's really an issue of intent. And perhaps I'm naively optimistic, but I'm inclined to believe, in most cases, the worst or most offensive metal lyrics are for shock value (excluding NSBM, but that's a bit of a special case, seeing as it's intertwined with an ideological movement).



...Also, does Judas Priest's Jawbreaker denigrate men, since Halford is singing about oral sex?

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