Vexillum are great! Thanks for showing me that. And that's actually really funny how similar the vocalist sounds to Damna though with more technical singing ability. Maybe Italian folk/power in general will hold what I'm looking for?

I just recently discovered Vexillum as well. Really liked it. But does this sound like Elvenking? I listened to some random tracks from them a while ago, and I really didn't like that. Maybe I checked out the wrong albums or something. Could that be the case?

I'll admit it's not quite as amazing as Feeling Free Again but c'mon, it's Manilla Road writing/recording a Motorhead song! Love it.

HMttW and Feeling Free Again both suck, although the former does definitely suck more. As for the OtG/Deluge debate, I feel like both production jobs are adequate but have their issues. OtG has a much rougher and murkier production, while Deluge has a sharp but relatively thin production; I always feel like the guitar tone on that album should be thicker than it is. The Deluge is definitely my favorite of the two, though; just more consistent songwriting. And while the Deluge was hard for me to get into, it took me slightly longer to get into Mystification, and even longer to get into Spiral Castle.

God, I hope Shelton still has another classic in him. The last two albums have been solid but unspectacular, I'm really hoping for a comeback on the level of the classic albums with Mysterium.

I don't know. I'm going based off the song linked. I think they do sound similar to Elvenking (albeit more Red Silent Tides era), the violin especially. Per "The Marketsquare of Dooly", they remind me of a more typical Euro-power incarnation of RST. There seems to be a certain feel among Italian power/folk bands that I really like..

I don't get all the fuss over Crystal Logic. It has some absolutely fantastic songs like Necropolis, Flaming Metal System (a bonus song) and Dreams of Eschaton, and what mostly sounds like some filler in between. I have yet to finish going through their discog, but I mostly prefer the "second" or later era of Manilla Road.

Love all the Manilla Road albums and eras (including The Circus Maximus) for different reasons. Favourite album for me though would definitely be The Courts Of Chaos.

What MR songs would you guys compare to "Metalstorm"? Fucking love this song and the faster moments on OTG, heh. The album does fly by though I'll admit, definitely seems a bit simpler than their others.

Mark kicks ass on "The Fires of Mars"!

Funny enough it was Crystal Logic and The Deluge that instantly clicked with me. As always and for everyone I'm sure though, their stuff is always kind of a mood thing... and I guess OTG is hitting all the perfect notes for me lately. Can't get enough! I'll have to traverse through Mystification, Out of the Abyss, and Courts of Chaos again though (since I remember them continuing The Deluge's trend of being a bit thrashier, but it's been awhile).

I'm all over Spiral Castle, but yeah I can never remember much about the other newer ones. I haven't touched Playground of the Damned yet and don't plan on it anytime soon though. Sounds worth going through for sure but I've still got half of their other stuff to really soak in.

EDIT: Ah yeah, Mystification is the one with production that leaves a lot to be desired... still easy to get over within the first song though.

Well, I'd compare it to other MR songs that I also find decent in and of themselves, but never cared for as MR songs, for fairly much the same reasons as "Metalstorm" (seriously, OtG starts at track #2 for me—and has no track #6, obviously): "Dementia", "Up From the Crypt", "Whitechapel", "Midnight Meat Train", "Dig Me no Grave"... and a whole damn lot of post-reunion songs. Most album openers (the notable exception being "Necropolis"). To my ears, these are thrashy, straightforward songs with riffs and melodies that aren't too distinctive and many other bands might have come up with, rather than having a strong, unique MR vibe to them songwriting wise (as opposed to songs with similarly relentless energy but more of a Manilla Road touch at their core, like "Children of the Night", "Death by the Hammer", "Out of the Abyss", "Black Cauldron", much of 'The Deluge' etc.). Well, that's just how I see it, but enjoy anyway!


Those three seem to get cited as favorites way more often than others, but while I also love them, "The Riddle Master", "The Ram" and "The Veils of Negative Existence" rank at least as high in my book, and when I give 'Crystal Logic' a spin, it's more often than not because one of those three songs popped up in my head and said "hey! long time no transcendental headbanging session". The only truly out of place song is "Feeling Free Again", although it's pretty good in and of itself; it's just that it's definitely an early-era song style wise, so it doesn't really fit on the album. Add it to 'Mark of the Beast' or 'Metal' and it's right at home.

As for the post-reunion stuff, well, in an effort to not speak ill of it in front of so many fans of it, I'll point out the only two songs I find myself coming back to from time to time, both off of 'Atlantis Rising': "Resurrection" and the title track. These I truly like.

I always felt that way about that song too. Like it was a deliberate attempt at Motorhead. And one which worked by the way.
there are just no bad moments for me on OtG!

I actually think this is my favourite song by them. Just perfect in every way. I love how he finishes every other riff with a mini-solo.



I'm currently going through Spiral Castle now, it's really a great moment in their career, especially the title song. Just great, catchy, killer riffs, and of course, Shelton's beautiful vocals..

I was sifting through the last couple pages and noticed this. Thanks a lot for sharing! This is exactly the sort of heavy metal I like. In "Roll the Bones" I heard a mix of Grave Digger and early Candlemass. The pacing in that song is excellent by the way. I'm going to check out more of their stuff pronto.

Alright, big list, but songs I would compare with 'Metalström' are:

'Enter The Warrior'
'Dementia'
'Divine Victim'
'Isle Of The Dead'
'Taken By Storm'
'Friction In Mass'
'Up From The Crypt'
'Haunted Palace'
'Valley Of Unrest'
'Masque Of The Red Death'
'Whitechapel'
'Midnight Meat Train'
'Slaughterhouse'
'Dig Me No Grave'
'Vlad The Impaler'
'Siege Of Atland'
'Riddle Of Steel'
'Conquest'
'Jackhammer'
'Eaters Of The Dead'
'The Heart Of Ahriman'

Special Bonus Number:
'Hack It Off' - Thrashiest, wildest, most bombastic song you will hear off of The Circus Maximus. The song is not thrash though.


And yes, I've renamed Hellwell to Manilla Road, and see 'Beyond The Boundaries Of Sin' as the successor to 'Playground Of The Damned'.

It was just plain better than Playground Of The Damned.

I honestly thought the Hellwell was pretty lackluster. If I had to choose it or PotD, it'd be the latter. Some songs work, but some really don't. "Henry Howard Holmes" and "Deadly Nightshade" don't really do much for me, and "The End of Days" is pretty patchy. Hoping Mysterium is a bit better.

Hellwell's album didn't do much for me, either. It's hard to put my finger exactly on what it was that turned me off, though. The best I can say is that every Manilla Road album immediately grabs me as something ambitious and epic, whereas Hellwell just felt meh.

Perhaps you guys need some of what I'm smoking. Hellwell was prob my favourite of 2012.

I still haven't properly got into Hellwell, but I certainly enjoy it while it's on. Playground... is something I really enjoy, though. I love the concise, pulp-y, song-orientated weirdness it has and also the subtle throwbacks to some of their late 1980s/early 1990s stuff. For instance, the vocals do often remind me of the Courts of Chaos album.

What's some awesome 80's USPM people have never heard of? I'm sure the USPM geeks can help me out with this one. I'm familiar with Helstar, Fates Warning, ect - I'm just looking for the most obscure, yet awesome USPM out there.

Prodigy/Oracle. You wouldn't expect much from a group who's only released a single demo, but holy shit! Blazing leads, soaring vocals, and memorable-as-fuck tunes.

I thought Playground was a return to albums like Open the Gates and The Deluge. It didn't have an epic like "The Ninth Wave" or "The Deluge" but it definitely had an 80's vibe with solid riffing (and fantastic drum fills) throughout, which I loved it for.

Well, to me it was lacking, as the French would say, "jen essay qua", that the previous albums had. Gun to head, I can't actually fully describe exactly what's missing, but I suppose it does hark back to Shelton's earlier work.

Most obscure stuff on my iPod currently:
Blind Assassin - 1986 demo
Chozzen Phate - 1995 demo
Dark Deception - Sadistic Intentions demo
Final Prophecy - Beyond Reality demo
Oblivion - Quest for Power and Rebirth demos
Stormbringer - Stealer of Souls demo
Tramontane - first demo
Wotan - Thunderstorm demo

There's probably other stuff that just isn't on my iPod atm because it's too hard to find and/or I'm lazy, but if any of those are things you haven't heard, that's a great place to start.

I think Playground is a pretty unique MR album. It feels like their 'grooviest' release.

People always say that, but to me Playground doesn't sound anything like 80s MR. It sounds more like MR sounding 80s in a very different way than they did in the actual 80s. The songs are more consciously retro, and also groovier than they ever were in the 80s.

The Emp is right. If it sounded anything like the 80s albums, I would likely be much more into it (provided it did so while avoiding the copy-paste method used on 'Gates of Fire', of course). That's not the case, unfortunately.

I think only Jackhammer reminds me of the late 80s MR albums. Other than that, the intro to Fire Of Asshurbanipal and Art Of War remind me of Mark Of The Beast (the album).

Every now and then this help thread basically becomes a MR discussion thread for at least a few pages before going back to normal. By the gods I wish I could enjoy this band but they just don't click! What is their most accessible album for an MR newb?

Seems you can really just start anywhere. I see a lot of people start with Crystal Logic or The Deluge. I started with Invasion and Mark Of The Beast. The band has gone through quite a bit of progression over the years, so every album ends up with its own unique charm.

That's fair, I guess. Playground dropped the ambition of the previous three albums and headed back to the 80's at any rate, and I feel those two aforementioned are the closest comparisons within their discography.

Yeah, Playground was definitely more 'to-the-point' than any of the previous Third Era/Reformation/Revival albums.


On Mysterium: all the German reviews seem to say that it sounds like a mix of Crystal Logic, The Deluge, and Mystification.

I'm already looking through past replies on this thread for ideas, but I may as well ask too: I'm trying to get into power metal, but man, if it's not done right it can so easily sound cheesy and generic. I'd appreciate suggestions of bands that are power metal, but still a bit dark and heavy, maybe a little thrashy, and ideally more lyrically diverse than just the standard swords-and-dragons thing. I really like Helloween, and I'm getting into Mystic Prophecy. Jag Panzer are good too, but with them so far I've had trouble maintaining my interest enough to sit through a whole album very often. Don't hesitate to give me big names; I'm new to this branch of metal.

Since you're here, you may already know the mighty Manilla Road, but if not, try just about any of their albums, although Spiral Castle and The Deluge are good starting points for their two eras. Lyric-wise, it's nearly all mythology-related, so yeah, might be too close to that fighting-dragons stuff.

Have you heard of Angel Dust and Dark At Dawn? Angel Dust has gotten progressively darker, I believe and Dark at Dawn is just about as grim as power metal gets in the Euro power scene.
Pharaoh might also be worth your while looking into as well, plenty of great leads and the vocals are top-notch, but I'm not totally sure if it's what you're after.

As a bit of a curve ball, While Heaven Wept's Vast Oceans of Lachrymose is an incredible mix of doom and power metal and you may not find anything quite like it (but if you do, please let me know...).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AGmmeAoUPw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDRQ3WrhSOM

Yeah, try Crystal Logic, The Deluge, or maybe Spiral Castle.

Yeah, I couldn't get into them for a long while, I just sort of started moving though their catalogue bit by bit, and then it kind of hit me.

In other words, they're selling it as 'Open the Gates, Part 2: No, Really, This Time'. I'll wait until I hear a whole song, thank you very much, German reviews. No offense, but you guys probably also said 'Death Magnetic' would sound like a mix of 'Kill 'em All', 'Ride The Lightning' and '....And Justice for all'.


Try 'Crystal Logic' and 'Open the Gates' if you want a feel of the classic MR era with some instant gratification. When/if you end up enjoying these two, move forward to the next three albums; they'll sound a little weird and otherworldly at first, but they'll grow on you. If and only if you digest all this and find yourself craving for more, then proceed at your own risk to 'Courts of Chaos' and, from there, the post-2000 stuff ('Circus Maximus' is not MR), but I really wouldn't recommend starting Manilla Road with something like 'Spiral Castle' or 'Voyager'; disliking it won't by any means tell you that MR in general is not for you, whereas if an album like 'Open the Gates' leaves you cold, I'd say you can rather safely cross post-1982 MR off your list altogether. Regardless of the above, if you're open to relatively soft hard/heavy with a prog rock touch, the early era should also make your day, at any given point ('Mark of the Beast' would be the best gateway).


Which periods of Helloween and JP have you tried? From an oldschool perspective, the mini-LP and 'Ample Destruction' would both fit your description like a glove. If you like those, then I'd recommend Agent Steel (all three 80s releases, but 'Unstoppable Force' first and foremost), Savage Grace's 'Master of Disguise', Helstar & co (everything by Helstar themselves except for MoB, along with related bands like early New Eden, Destiny's End and Distant Thunder, Crescent Shield, and now I can add Onward in there), both Holy Terror albums (but 'Terror & Submission' first), Scanner's 'Terminal Earth', Hollow's 'Architect of the Mind'... Well, that should get you started. Of course, if you're more into recent EuroPM, type "Empyreal, help!" instead.

@BaloroftheEvilEye: That Dark At Dawn track is nice. Those really hoarse "clean" vocals are borderline growls, really, but they work well with this somewhat punchy folk/EuroPM mixture. Not sure this qualifies as "dark" power metal, but it's not flowery, and sounds interesting. Thanks!
On Angel Dust, technically both of AD's 80s albums are ridiculously darker and heavier than anything done by the later EuroPM line-up, but what you said is probably true of the current incarnation of the band.

Edit: self-

Dark At Dawn are a wee bit unique in power metal, which is why it was a shame they broke up (and then got back together and apparently released another album). As far as dark goes, I think anything darker is Brimstone, before you start delving into melodeath or really thrashy power metal.

EDIT:
Here, check out this oddly sweet cover of a Chris De Burgh song.

If we're talking really dark PM, stuff like Adramelch's debut, Steel Prophet's Inner Ascendance, Cauldron Born's debut (partially), Kamelot's The Black Halo, etc. comes to mind. There's a pretty much imaginary genre called power/doom, which really only fits stuff like Enforcer (whose material is very poor audio quality) or Powers Court, who really aren't exceptional. Satan's Host is another obvious one, but their new stuff is more along the lines of black/speed/thrash with power flourishes thrown in here and there.

Yeah, Kamelot's Black Halo is darker than it initially appears, in a very thematic sort of way. Epica, too, is rather dark in that way, though not quite as sorrowful as BH. Both have this great sense of drama and despair about them, while also having a few upbeat tracks. They're very emotionally varied and wholesome, really.

Dark at Dawn, yeah, good stuff. Of Decay and Desire is pretty unique actually. Kamelot-esque melodies, Grave Digger/Sabaton heaviness and Tad Morose intricacy...intriguing combination, but really they just have their own sound.



Haha, damn right. This new Helloween album is great for instance.

We seem to mean different things by "dark". You're apparently using this term to denote the level of aggression of the performance, and/or how "extreme" the arrangements and production are; I use it to indicate that the songwriting in general and the melodies in particular tend to focus more on the sad/deep/serious realm of the emotional spectrum, rather than on the joyful/lighthearted/cheerful realm which is prominent in modern EuroPM and melodeath. I get the impression that you might consider this "darker" than that, whereas it's the opposite for me. From the now several songs I've listened to on YT, Dark At Dawn seems to have a number of melancholic melodies and moments, but they're always balanced out by hopeful counterpoints, or a feel-good, positive-attitude chorus (not quite anywhere near the sappiness of the Santa Chorus Syndrome, though, thankfully) so, to my ears, their overall mood comes across as "slightly concerned but still pretty pumped" instead of "dark". The same holds true for Brimstone: yes, the sound is abrasive, the pace is furious and the vocals are black metal-ish raspy shireks, but the music itself is festive as hell. Again, it's good stuff regardless, just not particularly gloomy. To me, dark power metal would be something like this, and then there's creepy dark power metal.

At any rate, whichever definition MetalMaidenMal goes by, he said "a bit dark", so he should have plenty to explore between our posts.


For what it's worth, two bands sprung to mind while listening to this track (and others, as I found this one rather interesting); neither is a perfect fit, and you might know them both already, but just in case: Wuthering Heights (quite a bit more folky and all over the place, but they have plenty of great songs not too far removed from this style) and Winter's Verge (a little less all over the place, but otherwise close enough, I think). Early DoomSword also came to mind but nah, it's not close at all, it's just the power/doom association, I guess, but DS is much closer to doom and WHW to power.


You know what? It's not bad (baby steps, here)!