I love black/death metal, but I'm confused as to why Christianity is so hated in these scenes. I get the whole 'Catholics kill our ancestors speech', but Catholics have never been Christian. No real christian has ever persecuted another human being. I've researched this subject for years and if anyone spends even a couple hours researching it, they will see Catholicism is the true enemy, not cristianity. I mean, if someones gonna dedicate theirself to make music, do some fucking research Also Judaism and Islam. Jewish mediums have persecuted the metal scene far to long. Islams persecute metalheads more than anyone else.

So, in reality Christianity is the only 'powerful' religion that should NOT be hated in metal. Again; Catholics are not Christians. Thats like saying Judaism is the same as Christianity. I get it that people view it as the major western/European power religious power, but wait. If you look at the number of people that claim to be Catholic then subtract it from the number of people who claim to be Christian, the number is very small!

Any thoughts? Please do not post any imbicilic or childish replys.

Heils! Bazuulizx

I honestly don't give a shit what some religious nut thinks about me or my hobbies, nor should anyone else, as far I'm concerned. It only becomes a problem when someone tries to limit other people's freedoms due to their beliefs. Now that pisses me off.

OpsiusCato leaves no cross unturned.

Oh, and those Kansas, Westboro 'Thank God for dead soldiers' hillbilly style people? They are the scum of the earth and should not be considered human. Rather the shit on the bottom of black metal combat boots!:)

The WBC are nothing to get angry about, in the end. They're sometimes infuriating, and some other times hilarious, but they're mostly just annoying attention seekers not worth anyone's time.

Also:

Someone is trying too hard, me thinks.

The Catholic church is pretty fucking Metal, dude. Hardly anything is as Metal as the Catholic Church throughout history.

What, pray, is catholicism, if not christianity?

Massacres, wars, raping, pillaging, torture, executions..... Yeah, I guess you could argue that, in that sense, they're a death metal band's wet dream regarding lyrical inspiration

I think that Opsius is referring to the crimes commited specifically by the Catholic Church, Ilwhyan.

So what are the results of your research, what are Catholics then?

When you say something as outlandish as that, please go into it a bit and explain what you mean or post some links. I'm rather curious.

When Xlxlx posts first in your thread, thank your lucky stars. You might get some good discussion going given that your original post isn't very inspiring.

I live in a country where no one bothers me and my freedoms. My heart goes out to those not as lucky. Their perseverance humbles us all!

Sure, but my post was aimed at the OP.

@Ilwhyan: oh, sorry. I thought that your comment was aimed at Opsius, for some reason.


I appreciate the compliment, sir

Now, that's inspiring!

Haha.

@OP, I think this is a topic which can barely scratch the surface of the antagonism of religion and metalheads on the whole. The more 'metal' seeps into pop culture, the more religion will try to prevent their beloved followers from falling prey to such atrocities. With regards to your Catholic-related spiel, I honestly see no difference between any denomination/sect of Christianity. They're all loony in varying degrees.

Ok, I think I get what you mean in your statement. Catholics have never been Christians, if what you mean by "Christians" is "followers of all those weird sects that started after the Reformation". If that's the case, no, Catholics have never been Christians. Keep in mind that the original Christian sect, the one that started it all, is the Roman Catholic Church. That one was founded directly from the teachings of Jesus Christ himself, and promoted by his apostles and disciples after his death. All the other "Christian" sects (except for the Greek Orthodox Church) are spin-offs from the original one. Have a look at the History of Protestant Reformation.

Are you sure? Ever heard of "The Troubles"?

I didn't notice this before.

No Real Scotsman fallacy. NEXT!

You speak truth.

Concerning Catholics: They're definitely, objectively, undeniably Christians. Are they "worthwhile" Christians? I guess that depends who you are asking about, and who is answering.

Saying Catholics aren't Christians is like saying death isn't metal. Which is interesting, because I have always seen the divergences between schools of metalheads as very similar to religious schism.

Also: Heavy metal has always been about shocking institutions, religions included. The enmity is a natural one. Metal isn't "persecuted" by religion. Being persecuted implies being a bullied pussy. Heavy Metal very loudly expressed displeasure with certain institutions right from the beginning. The conflict is a natural one and actually benefits metal as it gives it that edgy exposure and boosts sales.

I think OP is either using the "one true Scotsman" argument or just doesn't understand history.

Kind of. It's a combination of no true scotsman and a bullshit theological point that no one except a certain kind of protestant christian is convinced by (or cares about.)

OP has weird and asinine definitions of Christianity and Catholicism (for example: he thinks they are exclusive) and should not be taken seriously.

There were many sects prior to Catholicism which made a claim of being the "truth" and they all had scripture which bolstered the veracity of their claim, e.g. the Ebionites, the Marcionites, the various Gnostic groups, etc. Catholics ended up winning out for a variety of reasons, one being centralization. These Catholics, like everyone else, believed they understood what Jesus truly meant and only accepted scripture which fit with their own preconceived notions(which is a topic in itself). They merely ended up hitting the others over the head with the blasphemer stick. There are some authentic sayings of Jesus in the Bible but most of it is interpretation and reinterpretation by authors and the church.

To touch on the OP, clearly you are illinformed if you believe Christians and Catholics are not of the same mold. To say no "real" Christian, is an intellectual fallacy predicated on what you think a "true" Christian is. I can assure you that 99% of the practitioners of a faith stemmed from Judaism cannot begin to understand by what they mean when they mention god or likely, when they assume to know Jesus and what he taught. You said, "Thats like saying Judaism is the same as Christianity". Well, they are not the same but without Judaism or its minimalist Jewish "savior" Jesus, you would not have a religion.

Christianity in most forms is viewed as an intellectual burden by the metal community. It perpetrates ignorance, deceit, and has contributed to unspeakable horrors(there were not just Catholics who arrived in America with a Bible in hand). In short, it is a vestige of primitive human cognitive dwellings. It is also mainstream, hence the added hate.

Catholicism is literally the only branch of Christianity that has any teeth in the Western World, ever heard of the Catholic Worker? The Christian Socialist Movement? Liberation Theology? Christian Marxism? The Christians for Peace Movement? New Monasticism? All some of the most liberal, tolerant, and theologically solid basis for serious fucking change in Europe and America, all Catholic movements. But, hey, what do I know.



No. Not really.

At this point in time in many parts of the world, hating on Christianity is probably more mainstream than Christianity itself.

Explain.

I doubt that but elaborate.

Riffs might be alluding to islamism and muslim extremists' anti-west standpoints.

"No real Christian has ever persecuted another Christian"? Meaning that no Protestant has ever persecuted another Protestant?

Try again.

Muslims are not 'anti-Christian'. They regard Christians as well as Jews as 'People of the Book', and exempt members of both groups from mandatory taxes that heathens have to pay under Sharia. Their problems with Christians and Jews are geo-political in nature; religious concerns are wholly secondary to them.

Everyone hates on Christians, from Muslims to Atheists to Anarchists and Communists. It's the trendy thing to do these days.

I don't get the "True Scotsman" comment though, forgive my ignorance but could someone elaborate on that one please.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... IsCatholic

TVTropes disagrees with you, OP.

But on topic, I am thankful to never have had any serious prejudice directed towards me for my musical tastes though I haven't had that many direct experiences with any sorts of faiths since I graduated from college. The Abrahamic faiths are certainly the harshest towards metal from my observation but part of me feels like things are slowly becoming more accepted even in the most extreme parts of the world.

On a related note, does anyone know if there have been prejudices in Buddhist and Hindu cultures surrounding metal? The Abrahamic stuff is really all I hear about it...

Again, Muslims are not anti-Christian. They regard Christ as a Prophet in their cosmology and believe that he'll return again during their equivalent of Judgment Day.

And Communists? Where have you been since 1992? Communist parties the world over are lucky to get 1% in free elections.

The martyr complex that some Christians have...



The OP made a claim that was demonstrably false: that no 'true Christian' (which he takes to mean Protestants) have ever persecuted other 'true Christians' (again, Protestants). But some of the bloodiest conflicts of religion in e.g. the Dutch Netherlands during the seventeenth century were Protestant-on-Protestant conflicts.

Yeah, I recall reading that muslims aknowledge christianity as a brother religion of sorts. However, I'm sure there are many different stances among the muslims of the world. It's always important to remember that the horrifyingly extremist muslims are fairly rare compared to the more peaceful and moderate ones, even among die-hard islamists.

And even the die-hard Islamists are tolerant of Christianity.

Fun fact: under the 'theocratic' regime in Iran at present, Christians are treated more favorably than they were under the 'moderate', pro-Western Shah. This is because of some pretty arcane religious politicking that I don't fully understand, but the Ayatollah decriminalized quite a number of Christian denominations (with the exception of groups like Christian Science) when coming to power. This is largely because they actually took those lines about Christ as a Prophet seriously.

In fact, the only Christian denomination that gets full-bore persecution among Muslims that I can think of are Jehovah's Witnesses. But they have a pretty bad history of run-ins with authoritarian regimes; they were a central target in Nazi Germany, too.

I'm Atheist myself but I recently moved to quite a large immigrant area where Islam is a big thing, I even went to university a few years back with a guy who was Islamic and mentioned nothing of how metal offends him when I played metal in my car.

The only thing that was interesting that he mentioned offended him was this Primus song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RybFDAAtIAg
He's reasons being that 'it's just not right to put a sacred, Islamic prayer in Western music.'

I'm talking in general but that is a part of it (although one shouldn't confuse Islamists and muslims in general with extremists), certainly.

But more and more throughout the world, the separation of church and state concept is expanding and getting stronger, as well as laicity. Here in Quebec, showcasing a Christmas Tree complete with nativity scene inside a public place or shop will CERTAINLY get you more in trouble than showcasing a Morbid Angel posters. That's for fucking sure.

Then consider how many artists are getting exposure by "fighting against the evil Christian oppressor". A fictional oppressor that, conveniently, never fights back. The reality is, a lot of metalheads and musicians like to pretend it's badass and edgy to go against Christianity but they do it because they know fully well there are no repercussions. And there are no repercussions because Christianity rarely fights back anymore, excluding a few regional exceptions such as the Bible Belt. Really, what a lot of artists are doing these days is equivalent to kicking a small kid while he's down while pretending you're fighting a guy twice your size.

Go to some big party or big dinner. As a general rule, what's gonna get you the strangest reaction? Saying you're trying to make it as a heavy metal musician or saying you want to become a Priest?

Mainstream is about what the general population finds cool, acceptable, interesting. And at this point in time, I'd say Heavy Metal wins over Christianity quite often. Although again, it's a matter of culture and will vary based on demographics.

As much from a cultural angle as a legal angle, Christianity has lost tremendous ground pretty much everywhere, while artists continue to pretend they are badass, many of them solely in order to cash in on the aura it gives them while knowing it's the safest target they can pick on.

And that's becoming the new mainstream.

The extent to which Christians and their sympathizers overstate the effects of an imagined 'political correctness' on the religion are mind-blowing.

The process of secularization - which effects all religions equally, certainly in fact as well as in theory - is not an equivalent to persecution, and wishing will not make it so (I've no doubt many of these people find the idea of being persecuted for their faith titillating, as though persecution alone justifies a position). Being prohibited from displaying a Christmas tree, and I'll remind you that a Christmas tree is not a religious symbol and nowhere in the United States or Canada are you prohibited from displaying, say, a crucifix on your own property, is not the equivalent of Servetus being burned at the stake.

Moreover, desiring a secular society isn't "hating on Christianity", anymore than demanding that Christianity surrender its privileged position in Western civilization is "persecuting" it. This idea that all atheists and secularists are made in the image of Madelyn Murray O'Hare is nonsense; the vast majority of us have no problem at all with private religious practices, provided they remain in the domain of private practice. But when you have phenomena like Texas history schoolbooks openly and wantonly proclaiming that America was founded as a 'Christian nation', then it becomes a cause for legitimate concern, and putting a stop to it is not persecution.

Formerly Christians understood this, and many denominations in earlier centuries were at the forefront of pursuing the separation of Church and State as a way to maintain the purity of their institutions. It's a shame they've forgotten this tradition.

The extent to which some posters distort things to further whatever agenda they have is also mind-blowing.

No one is talking about "Christian Persecution" or "burning people at the stake"

Simply, I think it's misguided to see Christianity as The mainstream thing we have going right now.

Also, in response to those who want to state the obvious regarding Christmas Trees. They sure may not be religious but the nativity scene under it is.

Nice graphic that has nothing to do with what we are actually talking about.