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Razakel
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Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:36 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:41 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:
Who gives a shit what the album is called?


Me and lots of other Black Sabbath fans.

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NARAKU666
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:39 pm 
 

I put all my faith on Mr. Iommi
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:47 pm 
 

As said, even if the music is the best Sabbath have ever made with Ozzy, Rick Rubin will fuck it up.
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Oddeye
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:56 pm 
 

I'm actually really looking forward to hearing how Brad Wilk will sound on a Black Sabbath album since RATM is one of my favourite bands ever. I do agree that the title sucks though.

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Razakel
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:51 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
As said, even if the music is the best Sabbath have ever made with Ozzy, Rick Rubin will fuck it up.


I don't see how being this blindly pessimistic is constructive. I definitely have my doubts about Rick Rubin producing this, but from interviews with him about it, it seems his intentions are in the right place. Time will tell about that. I guess I'm expecting similar production to The Devil You Know. Iommi's riffs will sound fat and they'll do what they can with Ozzy's voice.

As for Brad Wilk, wow, how random. I like him as a drummer but is he a good fit for Sabbath? Also, time will tell.

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Smalley
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Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:06 am
Posts: 698
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:26 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
As said, even if the music is the best Sabbath have ever made with Ozzy, Rick Rubin will fuck it up.

What? Dude's kind a production legend...

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Subrick
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:33 pm 
 

He was also behind the legendarily bad production sound of Death Magnetic.
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Smalley
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:38 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
He was also behind the legendarily bad production sound of Death Magnetic.

Greg Fidelman is the one who actually mixed DM, though.

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Subrick
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:11 pm 
 

Rubin was still there, and while Fidelman does suck and should not be anywhere near a mixing board (World Painted Blood proved that), Rubin's productions generally have been as loud as they can possibly be.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:23 pm 
 

I don't really have any expectations for this at all. I'm sure I'll end up snagging a used copy for cheap. TDYK is an album I will readily pay lipservice but NEVER think to put on.

I'm sure it's two totally different groups but it strikes me odd that people seemed to be more hopeful/positive about Steve Harris' solo album than this new Sabbath record.
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Razakel
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:50 pm 
 

I just feel sorry for people who have already written off the album based on the producer. If it sucks, I'll be the first to admit it but until then I'm stoked to hear Iommi and Geezer do their thang.

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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:55 pm 
 

I have no hope for Ozzy's vocals, but Iommi can still write some heavy as hell riffs, as The Devil You Know proved. There's no reason to be that pessimistic, cause the drummer probably will play what the guys want, and Rubin? I only hope Iommi won't release anything until the sound pleases him. I can't believe that Iommi and Geezer will do blindly what that twat says. They're not the ever-childish joke that Metallica is.
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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:11 pm 
 

Fuck this. If Bill Ward isn't on the album then this is some horseshit done just to cash in on Ozzy's starpower. Hell it might as well be Vinnie Appice recording the drums.

And the 13 title is really goofy.

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Riffs
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:14 pm 
 

TrooperEd wrote:
Fuck this. If Bill Ward isn't on the album then this is some horseshit done just to cash in on Ozzy's starpower. Hell it might as well be Vinnie Appice recording the drums.


These days, a retarded teenager programming a drum machine would do a better job than Appice-Of-Shit.
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MrMcThrasher II
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:09 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:
TrooperEd wrote:
Fuck this. If Bill Ward isn't on the album then this is some horseshit done just to cash in on Ozzy's starpower. Hell it might as well be Vinnie Appice recording the drums.


These days, a retarded teenager programming a drum machine would do a better job than Appice-Of-Shit.

People hate Vinnie Appice now? I think he's awesome personally. Why do you two hate him?
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Razakel
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:28 pm 
 

Don't worry, no one in their right mind hates Vinnie Appice. Those two are just retarded enemies of metal who apparently wouldn't know good drumming if it was being performed right in front of them.

Having said that, I'd love to see Vinnie Appice in this line up. He's a better drummer than Bill is nowadays and it sure as hell makes more sense than Brad Wilk.

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Subrick
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:31 pm 
 

What I want to know regarding the drummer situation is why they didn't have Tommy Clufetos do the album. Makes all the sense in the world that he would do them since he's the live drummer for Sabbath.
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Razakel
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:33 pm 
 

My only guess is that they went with Wilk because he's a way bigger name.

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Riffs
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:39 pm 
 

MrMcThrasher II wrote:
People hate Vinnie Appice now? I think he's awesome personally. Why do you two hate him?


I don't know if people do in general but I can't stand the guy anymore and most people I know feel the same way. He used to be decent and even did some nice work on the first two Dio records but since then, has been going downhill with terribly monotonous, unimaginative drumming. Starting around 1992 for Dehumanizer, this became quite a concern. That's the year every shitty garage drummer on the planet figured they could have have been hired by Black Sabbath and done a better job. And it's only gotten worse since then.

Having him on board these days means terribly unoriginal song structures, which is in large part what made The Devil You Know forgettable despite the heaviness and good intentions. Appice did such a hatchet job on this one that it could seriously have been better with drum machine.

Good for you if you can tolerate him. In no way, shape or form can this guy be called "awesome" that I can think of. That's just crazy talk. Unless you feel all drummers are awesome by default.
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:40 pm 
 

Razakel wrote:
My only guess is that they went with Wilk because he's a way bigger name.


That still doesn't really make sense to me. If, say, Carcass tracked their new album with that mindset then they would've gotten someone much more known that Dan Wilding to do it. Tommy despite not being the most immediately known name in modern metal drumming is still on the surface a much better fit than Wilk, reasons being he's Ozzy's drummer and he did the Sabbath shows last year.
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Riffs
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:55 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
That still doesn't really make sense to me. If, say, Carcass tracked their new album with that mindset then they would've gotten someone much more known that Dan Wilding to do it. Tommy despite not being the most immediately known name in modern metal drumming is still on the surface a much better fit than Wilk, reasons being he's Ozzy's drummer and he did the Sabbath shows last year.


Carcass is just another band making music.

Black Sabbath is a huge franchise, with each member having their own manager. The whole thing is a lot more business-oriented with a lot more commercial potential. Having a bigger name can make a difference on this scale. It might also have been a contract issue, since both Ozzy and Iommi are experts in fucking things up and bickering over cents with everybody when they're not busy bickering between themselves.

I don't think Iommi has really cared about drumming and what kind of input it can have on the creative process for a long time. So I guess it makes sense they went for this guy.
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novakm
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Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:52 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:07 pm 
 

Appice did well on the Kill Devil Hill album, I think. He is definitely more suited for playing slow, crushing songs as opposed to faster music (didn't much care for his work in Dio).

I agree that Wilk was used because he's a bigger name. I can see the sticker on the front of the CD now: "The three gods of metal return with their heaviest, most catchy album yet! Featuring Brad Wilk (Rage Against the Machine, Audioslave) on drums!"

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LegendMaker
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:51 pm 
 

volutetheswarth wrote:
Subrick wrote:
What an incredibly uninspired name for an album

I agree, it's just an uninspired and meaningless title.

What annoys me the most is what the number 13 might imply. If it's meant as the album's place in the band's discography (if it's meant that way at all), it matches nothing meaningful. It'll be the band's 21st album by the widest selection reasonably arguable; 20th album if either 'Seventh Star' or 'The Devil You Know' is dismissed as not proper/official enough; 19th if neither "counts"; 14th if being a dick Ozz style and also discarding the Martin era as non-canonical; and the 9th album with Ozzy (which would actually be a far less offensive distinction). By this logic, it's only their 13th album if 'Born Again' is dismissed as well, leaving only the Ozzy and Dio eras, except for TDYK. At any rate, if they wanted to go that route, 'Volume __' any of those numbers would have been a hell of a lot better title, and it would have meant something in the band's history. But yes, it sounds far-fetched and hopefully it's not that because that would be insulting to whole chunks of the band's legacy (not it's not been done already by playing the "Black Sabbath is back after 34 million years" angle in the media).

However, the only other thing it might mean is retarded. It'd be "13" as in "Friday the 13th", also known as "booh!". Who calls an album "Booh!"?!
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Razakel
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:17 am 
 

^ Great post and I was also wondering what on earth the significance is of the number 13 with regard to Sabbath's career. Who knows, really. Maybe '13' will just be the lead single and they decided to title the album after that.

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volutetheswarth
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:23 am 
 

Razakel wrote:
^ Great post and I was also wondering what on earth the significance is of the number 13 with regard to Sabbath's career. Who knows, really. Maybe '13' will just be the lead single and they decided to title the album after that.

I imagine so. There's probably a track on the album called 13 and it's about being unlucky. I think Tommy Clufetos was the session drummer and Brad Wilk did the final recording. I doubt Wilk will have much input apart from drumming what's already been done.

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MrMcThrasher II
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:32 am 
 

Riffs wrote:
MrMcThrasher II wrote:
People hate Vinnie Appice now? I think he's awesome personally. Why do you two hate him?


I don't know if people do in general but I can't stand the guy anymore and most people I know feel the same way. He used to be decent and even did some nice work on the first two Dio records but since then, has been going downhill with terribly monotonous, unimaginative drumming. Starting around 1992 for Dehumanizer, this became quite a concern. That's the year every shitty garage drummer on the planet figured they could have have been hired by Black Sabbath and done a better job. And it's only gotten worse since then.

Having him on board these days means terribly unoriginal song structures, which is in large part what made The Devil You Know forgettable despite the heaviness and good intentions. Appice did such a hatchet job on this one that it could seriously have been better with drum machine.

Good for you if you can tolerate him. In no way, shape or form can this guy be called "awesome" that I can think of. That's just crazy talk. Unless you feel all drummers are awesome by default.

I actually liked him on Dehumanizer :P
TDYK actually used a drum machine apparently; I think Appice said that in an interview, and I'm sure someone will come to clarify this being true or not.
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mentalselfmutilation
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:35 am 
 

isn't album released this year? maybe its to signify the year, possible a song on the album is called 13.

I'm indifferent to this album, but like the rest of black sabbath's discography, i will eventually hear it and make opinions then. Seems unnecessary now that the bands a business for decades now. About as relevant as kiss coming out with a new album last year.
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Riffs
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:57 am 
 

MrMcThrasher II wrote:
I actually liked him on Dehumanizer :P


It's a free country and all that :p

He was still tolerable on Dehumanizer. That was helped by the fact that Cozy Powell came up with the drum parts in Computer God (and a few other bits here and there). Pretty much the only parts where Vinnie shows he's got a pulse on the album.
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Riffs
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:59 am 
 

Razakel wrote:
Don't worry, no one in their right mind hates Vinnie Appice. Those two are just retarded enemies of metal who apparently wouldn't know good drumming if it was being performed right in front of them.

Having said that, I'd love to see Vinnie Appice in this line up.


Of course you would! You're his mom after all!
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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:07 am 
 

MrMcThrasher II wrote:
People hate Vinnie Appice now? I think he's awesome personally. Why do you two hate him?


I don't so much hate him as much as I view him as Bill's stand in. Remember when he was going to be the original drummer for Heaven & Hell?

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Evil_Carrot
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:15 am 
 

Razakel wrote:
^ Great post and I was also wondering what on earth the significance is of the number 13 with regard to Sabbath's career. Who knows, really. Maybe '13' will just be the lead single and they decided to title the album after that.

I was under the impression it was because the album was coming out in 2013.
p0wnn00b wrote:
A song name leaked as "God is Dead." Sabbath haven't been this original since they invented heavy metal in 1970!

Someone brought up that it might be about Dio. Which would be cool, except do you think Ozzy has stopped not liking Dio long enough to pay proper tribute? And do we really want Ozzy to do it...? Otherwise, I just hope it's not the band trying to be edgy again or something. I know it's been a while since the opening riff to Black Sabbath was genuinely terrifying, and that Ozzy stopped being the offensive scary bat eater and started beign the funny swearing guy from MTV, but this is Black Sabbath, not black metal. I'd almost rather it be a musing on Nietzsche.

The title is lame as shit, but the music will be what matters. I'm trying to stay positive, but I'm a little hesitant. I hope this is good, because The Devil You Know would have been a decent epitaph. Although, I guess under the actual name, how much worse can this be than Forbidden? ...or for Ozzy era they would have gone out with Bill Ward on Swinging the Chain.

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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:50 am 
 

Washed up rock stars recording an album with Ozzy's vocals and Rubin's production - what could possibly go wrong?

I'm doubtful as to whether even brilliant Iommi riffs could save the album from Rubin and Ozzy's cadaver. It will quite likely be hellishly loud with insane clipping, with painfully shitty vocals (even though they will be completely autotuned so that his wavering pitch won't be a problem, his voice these days sounds like he was choking on his own tongue). I'm almost equally doubtful as to whether Iommi has written brilliant riffs.
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OpsiusCato
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:32 pm 
 

Wow, this is gonna be terribly fucking bad. This album is already filling me with the urge to throw up. Also the name... it is an insult to the awesome, brilliant and almost perfect era Black Sabbath had with Tony Martin singing. Fuck you, current "Black Sabbath".

Ozzy should have retired or died right after "Bark at the Moon". I wish it was the latter.
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:03 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
Razakel wrote:
My only guess is that they went with Wilk because he's a way bigger name.


That still doesn't really make sense to me. If, say, Carcass tracked their new album with that mindset then they would've gotten someone much more known that Dan Wilding to do it. Tommy despite not being the most immediately known name in modern metal drumming is still on the surface a much better fit than Wilk, reasons being he's Ozzy's drummer and he did the Sabbath shows last year.


It's Black Sabbath, they have absolutely no reason to try to put a "big name" there. Clufetos is a generic modern hard rock/metal drummer - listen to any of the albums he recorded with Rob Zombie, John 5, Ted Nugent, Alice Cooper, or even Ozzy - he's not particularly interesting and his playing is a league different from what Bill Ward did. He's a drummer who is completely capable of sitting in the background and following everything, much like a lot of drummers who support bigger names up front. "Modern metal drumming" is exactly why I'm not really interested in Clufetos. He can play Ozzy/Sabbath material, but I'm more interested to hear a guy who has played heavy stuff, but has more emphasis on rock/funk groove, it seems like a better fit for what Sabbath are than a "metal drummer".

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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:28 pm 
 

MrMcThrasher II wrote:
TDYK actually used a drum machine apparently; I think Appice said that in an interview, and I'm sure someone will come to clarify this being true or not.


I heard it was more that the other guys came up with parts on a drum machine and he just played the same things as the machine. I could be wrong but I remember hearing Bill Ward say something along those lines.
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TheUglySoldier
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:31 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
It's Black Sabbath, they have absolutely no reason to try to put a "big name" there. Clufetos is a generic modern hard rock/metal drummer - listen to any of the albums he recorded with Rob Zombie, John 5, Ted Nugent, Alice Cooper, or even Ozzy - he's not particularly interesting and his playing is a league different from what Bill Ward did. He's a drummer who is completely capable of sitting in the background and following everything, much like a lot of drummers who support bigger names up front. "Modern metal drumming" is exactly why I'm not really interested in Clufetos. He can play Ozzy/Sabbath material, but I'm more interested to hear a guy who has played heavy stuff, but has more emphasis on rock/funk groove, it seems like a better fit for what Sabbath are than a "metal drummer".


I gotta agree, I'm not really big on RATM, but the kind of drumming explored on by Wilk is much more in line with the Ozzy-era Sabbath stuff than Clufetos. That is nothing against Clufetos, he is a very good drummer, but I think Wilk might have ideas more suited to the Sabbath sound. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if he has more of a session-musician role than anything.
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:00 pm 
 

TheUglySoldier wrote:
Zodijackyl wrote:
It's Black Sabbath, they have absolutely no reason to try to put a "big name" there. Clufetos is a generic modern hard rock/metal drummer - listen to any of the albums he recorded with Rob Zombie, John 5, Ted Nugent, Alice Cooper, or even Ozzy - he's not particularly interesting and his playing is a league different from what Bill Ward did. He's a drummer who is completely capable of sitting in the background and following everything, much like a lot of drummers who support bigger names up front. "Modern metal drumming" is exactly why I'm not really interested in Clufetos. He can play Ozzy/Sabbath material, but I'm more interested to hear a guy who has played heavy stuff, but has more emphasis on rock/funk groove, it seems like a better fit for what Sabbath are than a "metal drummer".


I gotta agree, I'm not really big on RATM, but the kind of drumming explored on by Wilk is much more in line with the Ozzy-era Sabbath stuff than Clufetos. That is nothing against Clufetos, he is a very good drummer, but I think Wilk might have ideas more suited to the Sabbath sound. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if he has more of a session-musician role than anything.


I think that asking a different guy to do it is to avoid the session-drummer feeling of throwing a guy in there as more of a session drummer - I think that's also why they waited until it was done to let his name out. Having a session guy, or a more standard "modern metal" guy does give it some sort of inclination to not doing too much, laying back with standard beats, or if it's a modern metal guy, adding double bass to everything and otherwise trying to make everything heavy. I think putting a guy who has done as much funk and rap-backing stuff as heavy riffs is an interesting approach.

Aside from that, I really hate the work of a dozen or so session drummers who are brought in to more or less play constant blasting/double bass for the sheer force of their drumming. I'm really sick of that sound, and while that's far from Sabbath, I don't think Clufetos has ever had any sort of creative opportunity in his career and a Black Sabbath album wouldn't be a good place to find his groove. Wilk has a different history and I really enjoy his work.

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CF_Mono
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:46 am 
 

Riffs wrote:
Who gives a shit what the album is called? Talk about wasting time on meaningless details.

Agreed.

But for the sake of wasting time on useless details, even Th1rt3en or whatever didn't come out that bad, even if the title sucked. And 13 isn't as bad of a name for Black Sabbath considering their entire theme has been mysticism and superstition. I don't see it unfitting at all.
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ENKC
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:25 am 
 

Bill was never a 'metal' drummer anyway, what with the genre not existing at the time. I'd much prefer him to be in the lineup, but a drummer without a metal mindset need not be a bad thing for Sabbath. I have my tickets to see them in May.
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Tantalus
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:18 pm
Posts: 1097
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:29 am 
 

Lightning is unlikely to strike twice, sadly. TDYK was one of the best 'comeback' albums ever (and it is a Sabb album IMO), but nothing in the horribly acrimonious run-up to this recording indicates that their hearts will be in it. The Ward debacle, the legal issues with Ozzy and the rest of the band - does any of this seem conducive to making a great album? Methinks not.
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