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DrummingEdge133
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:48 pm
Posts: 1601
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:45 pm 
 

Um... isn't getting something like a public option involved just more competition? Isn't that what you should want Orion? More competition? Since that will drive prices down. And nothing drives prices down like the good ol' cheapo government option. I guess since its source is government, it's automatically bad, evil and freedom-dampening by default though from what I'm seeing of your opinions on matters here.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9407
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:39 pm 
 

orionmetalhead wrote:
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. We've tried it for a long time in this country in terms of government health programs like Medicare and Medicaid and we've seen constantly rising prices in the cost of healthcare. Everyone complains that the prices are too high. I think that's because of government involvement. You think differently. Simple as that. This is why we vote for different people.

You think that... without any evidence whatsoever. Having an opinion without facts to back it up is called "faith".
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4722
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:15 pm 
 

orionmetalhead wrote:
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. We've tried it for a long time in this country in terms of government health programs like Medicare and Medicaid and we've seen constantly rising prices in the cost of healthcare. Everyone complains that the prices are too high. I think that's because of government involvement. You think differently. Simple as that. This is why we vote for different people.


How is the high cost of Medicare/Medicaid due to government involvement? What does the government do that increases the cost of healthcare? We've tried these programs and they have been successful in practice. You think differently, but your position on healthcare is rooted in ideology, not practicality or reality. Can you prove significant causality to the existence of Medicare and Medicaid causing the rising cost of healthcare in the US?

The costs of Medicare and Medicaid have risen slower than the cost of private insurance in the US.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1204899

The cost of healthcare in the US has been rising at a much faster rate than the rest of the world because of anti-competitive practices in the private industry. Forbes notes that significant contributors to the high cost of healthcare are a large portion of healthcare rates being poorly negotiated by private healthcare providers as well as having rates for both public and privately provided healthcare being set by the private industry - the free market at work. The high level of per capita income in the US is also noted as a contributor, which can drive prices up when the goals of healthcare providers include profit. Their third point notes higher administrative costs than single-payer models.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddhixon/2 ... s-so-high/

Privatized healthcare in the US is the most expensive healthcare system in the world, and not the best either. It is certainly the least efficient system in the developed world.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/201 ... tries.html

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TheOldOne
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:05 pm
Posts: 755
Location: Stalling at the present time
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:34 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
orionmetalhead wrote:
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. We've tried it for a long time in this country in terms of government health programs like Medicare and Medicaid and we've seen constantly rising prices in the cost of healthcare. Everyone complains that the prices are too high. I think that's because of government involvement. You think differently. Simple as that. This is why we vote for different people.

You think that... without any evidence whatsoever. Having an opinion without facts to back it up is called "faith".


Perhaps this article will help. Maybe this one too.

The bottom line is that the current American healthcare system is NOT a free market, consumer driven system with a working price mechanism, and the costs of healthcare have increased as government spending in the healthcare field has increased.
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hells_unicorn
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 2240
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:52 pm 
 

DrummingEdge133 wrote:
Um... isn't getting something like a public option involved just more competition? Isn't that what you should want Orion? More competition? Since that will drive prices down. And nothing drives prices down like the good ol' cheapo government option. I guess since its source is government, it's automatically bad, evil and freedom-dampening by default though from what I'm seeing of your opinions on matters here.


If you want to be technical, the public option is competition. The problem is that the government has an unfair advantage, namely it alone can fine people, throw them in prison and kill them for resisting in both cases if they don't buy their "cheapo government" product. And I have a feeling that you probably wouldn't like the concept of having Humana being able to fine you or give you an intimate introduction to Bubba for choosing not to buy health insurance or going with a competitor that isn't approved by them. Just saying. :)
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Last edited by hells_unicorn on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BastardHead
Magic Mike

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 5103
Location: Oswego, Illinois
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:55 pm 
 

hells_unicorn wrote:
The problem is that the government has an unfair advantage, namely it alone can fine people, throw them in prison (where they can be subjected to the pleasurable delights of homosexual rape), and kill them for resisting in both cases if they don't buy their "cheapo government" product


You heard it here first folks, the government will kill you if you don't accept public healthcare.
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hells_unicorn
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 2240
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:56 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
hells_unicorn wrote:
The problem is that the government has an unfair advantage, namely it alone can fine people, throw them in prison (where they can be subjected to the pleasurable delights of homosexual rape), and kill them for resisting in both cases if they don't buy their "cheapo government" product


You heard it here first folks, the government will kill you if you don't accept public healthcare.


If you don't pay the fine and refuse to go to prison, that's exactly what could end up happening. You might not like hearing it, but that's not my problem.
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BastardHead
Magic Mike

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 5103
Location: Oswego, Illinois
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:58 pm 
 

I... just... I can't do this. This has to be a joke. This is all I can think of
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9407
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:13 pm 
 

Are you new to hells_unicorn's CT lunacy, BastardHead?
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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Necroticism174
Kite String Popper

Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:46 pm
Posts: 4863
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:18 pm 
 

The reptilians are approaching.
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BastardHead
Magic Mike

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 5103
Location: Oswego, Illinois
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:22 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Are you new to hells_unicorn's CT lunacy, BastardHead?


No, but I guess I was caught off guard. I have some lunatic friends who buy into the most far fetched, fear mongering propaganda in the universe as long as it fits their beliefs, but THAT was just something else entirely.
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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4722
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:04 pm 
 

TheOldOne wrote:
The bottom line is that the current American healthcare system is NOT a free market, consumer driven system with a working price mechanism, and the costs of healthcare have increased as government spending in the healthcare field has increased.


The costs of healthcare have increased as private spending in the healthcare field has increased. This correlation is proportionally stronger than govt spending to healthcare costs.

The current American healthcare system is not a free market, consumer-driven system and it never will be when an effective way to increase profits is to spend it on influencing regulation of the system via lobbyists, campaign funding, and propaganda.

hells_unicorn wrote:
DrummingEdge133 wrote:
Um... isn't getting something like a public option involved just more competition? Isn't that what you should want Orion? More competition? Since that will drive prices down. And nothing drives prices down like the good ol' cheapo government option. I guess since its source is government, it's automatically bad, evil and freedom-dampening by default though from what I'm seeing of your opinions on matters here.


If you want to be technical, the public option is competition. The problem is that the government has an unfair advantage, namely it alone can fine people, throw them in prison and kill them for resisting in both cases if they don't buy their "cheapo government" product. And I have a feeling that you probably wouldn't like the concept of having Humana being able to fine you or give you an intimate introduction to Bubba for choosing not to buy health insurance or going with a competitor that isn't approved by them. Just saying. :)


"Just saying" is a Libertarian code phrase that they inherited from the Illuminati by way of the Freemasons.

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xThe__Wizard
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:59 pm
Posts: 845
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:26 pm 
 

hells_unicorn wrote:
DrummingEdge133 wrote:
Um... isn't getting something like a public option involved just more competition? Isn't that what you should want Orion? More competition? Since that will drive prices down. And nothing drives prices down like the good ol' cheapo government option. I guess since its source is government, it's automatically bad, evil and freedom-dampening by default though from what I'm seeing of your opinions on matters here.


If you want to be technical, the public option is competition. The problem is that the government has an unfair advantage, namely it alone can fine people, throw them in prison and kill them for resisting in both cases if they don't buy their "cheapo government" product. And I have a feeling that you probably wouldn't like the concept of having Humana being able to fine you or give you an intimate introduction to Bubba for choosing not to buy health insurance or going with a competitor that isn't approved by them. Just saying. :)


WHAT?
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Riffs
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 am
Posts: 861
Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:18 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Are you new to hells_unicorn's CT lunacy, BastardHead?


He might not be but I am. Pretty spectacular!
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Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 258714 subjects

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
Posts: 8485
Location: Québec
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:22 am 
 

Hells > Orion. WE HAVE A WINNER.
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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
Posts: 5724
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:36 am 
 

hells_unicorn wrote:
DrummingEdge133 wrote:
Um... isn't getting something like a public option involved just more competition? Isn't that what you should want Orion? More competition? Since that will drive prices down. And nothing drives prices down like the good ol' cheapo government option. I guess since its source is government, it's automatically bad, evil and freedom-dampening by default though from what I'm seeing of your opinions on matters here.


If you want to be technical, the public option is competition. The problem is that the government has an unfair advantage, namely it alone can fine people, throw them in prison and kill them for resisting in both cases if they don't buy their "cheapo government" product. And I have a feeling that you probably wouldn't like the concept of having Humana being able to fine you or give you an intimate introduction to Bubba for choosing not to buy health insurance or going with a competitor that isn't approved by them. Just saying. :)


Didn't know Dave Mustaine was a member here.
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orionmetalhead
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:54 am
Posts: 2449
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:37 am 
 

I really wanted that title. Damn you Hells_Unicorn!!

TheOldOne wrote:


Any other opinions on these posted articles other than Zod's? Curious to hear thoughts..
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GTog
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:35 pm
Posts: 408
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:18 pm 
 

orionmetalhead wrote:
TheOldOne wrote:


Any other opinions on these posted articles other than Zod's? Curious to hear thoughts..


The thought that health care might be in a bubble is an interesting one, but I don't think that's the real story. Anything that increases dramatically in price isn't automatically a bubble. Gasoline has increased dramatically in price too, but that has more to do with the sumbitches at Goldman Sachs than anything.

No, I think the problem with Medicare is that Republicans strongly opposed it in 1965, lost, and have been trying to wreck it ever since. There are a lot of completely ridiculous laws on the books that serve no purpose except to undermine Medicare. There are state laws that forbid state regulators from auditing health care providers. There are varying definitions of what constitutes Medicare "fraud" versus "abuse". At the federal level, Republicans have consistently over decades slashed funding for units that investigate Medicare fraud, despite the fact that the MFCUs are incredibly good at doing it.

They don't want Medicare to be any good. They want it to be bloated, inefficient, and wasteful so they can point to it and say 'Look how bloated, inefficient, and wasteful it is! Told you it was a bad idea!'

One of the more useful things Obamacare does is strengthens the shit out of provider enrollment requirements. These are extremely boring, so you don't hear about them on the news. But, HHS can now perform license checks across state lines. Can you believe that if a doctor had his medical license suspended in one state, he or she could still register as a Medicare provider in another? Can you also believe that if a doctor had been convicted of a crime, including Medicare fraud, he or she could still register as a Medicare provider? HHS couldn't conduct criminal backgrounds checks. Can now. There are requirements for institutional providers too.

Medicare wasn't designed to be so stupid. Most of those little holes were put there on purpose over the last several decades. I believe that a lot of Republican fury over Obamacare is that it essentially erases all their efforts to make Medicare fail.

Edit: I just realized that the link pointed to the wrong thing, so I took it out.

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