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Civil
I'm not sexist, I have binders full of women friends!

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:58 pm
Posts: 112
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:01 am 
 

[Admin edit: find the original discussion here]

This is exactly what I meant, thanks for understanding Multicide.

That said, I have always liked doom metal. I have quite a few Electric Wizard albuns, Saint Vitus, etc. Just bought a Vitus shirt!

But I also have a critical view of things. And the original poster of this topic noticed something that is happening, that's why he posted it.

Of course there is well done, interesting doom/stoner. But it is very hip and trendy at the moment, so it gets the attention of a LOT of people who are in it just for the "image points" it brings. Doom/stoner metal is old, very old, but it's been overhyped right now and it is very, very, very fashionable. The ammount of girls who are in it just to "look the part" is impressive. They weren't there 15 years ago and Pentagram, Vitus, Cathedral, Wizard, etc all these bands were already there!

I love Electric Wizard, Cathedral, Vitus, etc. But, again, that doesn't mean I can't criticize them or have a balanced view of their work and their music, and how they are or are not using the fashionable, flavor-of-the-month aspect of what the OP noticed because of the image and the scene's internal status.

multicide wrote:
It's insane to think how many people DEFEND hipsters in the metal community. I wonder what would happen if this young generation were around during the nu-metal scene. Was that cool too?

Civil's point is image is overriding everything nowadays and people buy into it and retro garbage because it's novelty. Do you think any of these current female fronted occult rock bands grew up listening to Sabbath, Saint Vitus, Pentagram, or Trouble? To say metalheads who wear band shirts to support their favorite bands and long hair to headbang is the same as bands taking pictures with a 1970's camera and bellbottoms is insane. The point is bands today are obsessed with looking the part yet their music fails to deliver (the retro death metal/thrash/black metal bands are guilty of this as well). Why listen to this when you can listen to the bands I mentioned above or even Cathedral? Because it's hip now and most of the fans have no idea who Trouble or Cathedral are and found out about obscure rock bands through youtube.

I remember there was a time when people were interested in multiple genres and bands because they LIKED them, not because they felt obligated to like them so they wouldn't feel left out or because they're the flavor of the month. This is pretty much why "metal" in the 2000's + will not have many bands that will be remembered like the bands of yesteryear. Like goth metal or experimental Norwegian black metal in the late 90's/early 2000's, this too shall pass.

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kapala
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:56 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:20 am 
 

Civil wrote:
The ammount of girls who are in it just to "look the part" is impressive.


Yeah, man. The minute girls start liking anything other than Britney Spears, it becomes totally hip, and loses all its credibility, man. Girls, taking all our angry, testosterone-filled heavy metal and liking it, and maybe starting a band? Well, I never...

:roll:

Did you ever think they maybe like the music? How do you know they're just "looking the part"? Have you tried to talk to any of them? Oh.. wait. One probably shot you down. Better luck next time, brah.

(note: kapala is a female)
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TadGhostal
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:31 pm
Posts: 782
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:10 pm 
 

Civil wrote:
Of course there is well done, interesting doom/stoner. But it is very hip and trendy at the moment, so it gets the attention of a LOT of people who are in it just for the "image points" it brings. Doom/stoner metal is old, very old, but it's been overhyped right now and it is very, very, very fashionable. The ammount of girls who are in it just to "look the part" is impressive. They weren't there 15 years ago and Pentagram, Vitus, Cathedral, Wizard, etc all these bands were already there!



A) How do you know this?
B) Why does it matter?

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Civil
I'm not sexist, I have binders full of women friends!

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:58 pm
Posts: 112
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:09 pm 
 

I know this because I see it, TadGhostal.

Why does it matter? Why does anything matter? Why did someone posted about this trend? Why anything is discussed? Why does it matter that I mentioned it and you cared to ask about it? Look for the answers, young padawan. They are not far.

Kapala: in all subcultures, be it jazz, rock, blues, metal, goth, and so on, women, for whatever reason, are always the minority and are predominantly attracted to it because of the looks and the fashion and the social status. Music is always in second place, for good or bad. Extreme music barely had any women at all associated with it 20 years ago. Now the situation is very different. You still are a minority, but there are more women since becoming necro, cult, stylish, vintage etc became something very interesting and fetishistic look-wise.

But, to all of you who make a point of not seeing the point of all the things I have said, and that make of point of not understanding the fact that the original poster has lifted about this BEING a trendy thing which is happening.... fine, haters gonna hate. :-)

There's nothing I can say to you which will change your will to hate/disagree and not acknowledge the facts I/others bring up. That's fine with me. :-)

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matras
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:01 am
Posts: 863
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:23 pm 
 

Wait, what? o_O

You single out girls as being into it for the look, you say that people who recently heard for example S:t Vitus for the first time and liked it, somehow "don't like it for real" (my words). And then you say there's nothing you can say to support those asinine statements? Or anything that would change people minds?

Indulge me (and the others), please. Keep diggin' because we can still see you.

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Civil
I'm not sexist, I have binders full of women friends!

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:58 pm
Posts: 112
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:41 pm 
 

I won't keep repeating myself much because I don't feel like it, but this is from a book about metal and identity:

--
On the matter of gender, the evidence I was able to collect supports the long held notion that the majority metal heads are male. Even though the average fan could likely rattle off a long list of bands which have one or more female members, women made up what I would estimate to be no more than one in four patrons at the metal bars. Non-male fans of the genre where even more scarce than that number would suggest, as many of those women informed me that they were not fans of the music and had come with friends or dates. On the other hand, males who did not like the music were very rare in both of the bars. Further complicating the situation, on the occasions when I did locate female fans they were unwilling to be interviewed.

In an attempt to get some non-male perspective, the poet, blogger, and long time fan of heavy metal, Louise, was kind enough to answer my interview questions via email. Her responses were quite similar to the others, citing the intensity of the music and emotional resonance as reasons for its appeal. She also mentioned that she did not think the music was 'any more violent, adolescent, or sexist than many other genres of music, particularly pop [and] hip-hop', but that obvious examples of all those things could be picked out of the genre's catalog. The only major divergence in response was that she did not share the same sense of community reported by fans at concerts, because 'the majority of people [at metal shows] are big, male, bellowing, drinking beer, and crashing into people.'

According to her, much of the discourse in heavy metal is tied up in asserting and affirming 'stories about the nature of masculinity.'1 In this sense, the music serves as a sort of reinforcement of what it is to be male in a world where traditional gender roles are breaking down. If that is the case, then one might see a lack of interest among women because the acting out of 'maleness' at concerts creates an uncomfortable environment similar to the one described. Louise also mentions that, women at metal concerts 'who dress in “provocative” attire, such as miniskirts and high heels, are either denounced as sluts...or ogled as obnoxiously as they would be by the most chauvinistic construction workers', a situation which could further contribute to women feeling uncomfortable at metal shows and clubs.2

During the course of my field work I also noticed that female metal heads seemed to feel the need to demonstrate their authenticity more often and more loudly than the males. This occurrence is likely due to what others observed as a tendency for male fans to view females as inauthentic posers who got dressed up to be seen with their boyfriends. On a similar note Kim Kelly mentions that, 'it seems as though the only roles women are allowed within [the] world [of heavy metal] are the Madonna...or the Whore.'3 In other words, they are either idealized or marginalized by male fans. In a situation were they are constantly ridiculed for inauthentic behavior or forced to demonstrate credibility more than their male counterparts, women might be more likely to stay away from serious involvement in the scene because of the social stress imposed by masculine, hetero-normative perceptions of women.

--

I believe that in the end there is a strong difference between men and women when it comes to creating music. All of these subcultures, jazz, blues, heavy metal, rock, soul, whichever, are male-dominated, and all the important, groundbreaking musicians of it are male.

There is something about the obsessive mentality of men, discussing brands of guitars for hours or the development of genres and sub genres for hours and hours which is particularly male.

It is something that simply does not gets the attention of most women, who have a different sensibility.

Perhaps this is a general comment, but when a female metal sits to discuss music with you, it is the songs, the energy, the way the album makes her feel that is brought out. Never the production, bass tones, or anything that is elitist, which metal fans are extremely guilty of being. They go for the emotion, as in most other things in life.

Extreme metal has become more popular in the last say 10 years with females. But I believe that is much due to the fact that extreme metal has gone through a kind of hipsterization so to speak. In the 80s and 90s extreme metal was all but DEVOID of women, period. No women used to listen to Hellhammer, Bathory, etc. With time these things have become vintage, oldschool, cult, and chic, and many women entered extreme metal through these doors. Women didn't also exist as musicians in bands, pretty much at all, in the start of thrash, death and black metal.

Women have a bigger tendency to associate their music with a certain period of their lives and well as the emotions they can get out of it, rather than looking at it as a form of art which can evolve.

A good example of a female that uses the extreme metal subculture to promote herself as a sexy vixen, something which wouldn't be imagined in the 80s and 90s with bands such as Mayhem, Darkthrone, Burzum, Death, Cannibal Corpse etc is this girl:

http://foreverstreetmetalbitchwitch.tumblr.com

She is also completely self-image obsessed, as her many photos of herself posing over and over and over again wearing provocative metal attire prove.

The meaning of these bands nowadays is completely different. They are safe, nostalgic and a bit kitsch, also a bit poetic. Hence the intellectualization of Black Metal (Liturgy).

Of course that there are plenty of women who have some of the sensibility of men, their skills and interests in music, and in subcultures.

However, hard data and facts point to the conclusion that the general female public, both as audience and as musicians, just do not produce the same level of quality in terms of music as males. We have had the whole of the 20 century with sucultures, like I said, ranging from Jazz to rock, and no female musician can beat, or even get close to the work developed to Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, Ottis Redding, Jimi Hendrix, Chuck Schuldiner, and so on.

Of course in certain specters of the female music group there are astouding musicians, in popular music specially regarding singers, soul singers and the such.

But still, they always, always compose a very small minority if we compare those with the sheer number of revolutionary men.

There are all kinds of people and exceptions in the world, but there are certain currents, behaviors and probabilities. Female metal bands are, for good or bad, remarkably famous for being highly irrelevant musically and also having much interested generated solely because they have female members, regardless of the quality of the music.

Of course there are exceptions, riot grrrls (if you like that) and so on, and there are talented women everywhere, but they are exceptions, as the facts show.

Ok, feel free to deny, not acknowledge, twist what I have said and the data brought up and hate me, call me names, etc. You are welcome. There's nothing I can do anyway, and when someone is so set to not acknowledge things, they are 100% guaranteed to succeed.

There's no point, data or information I can bring which will make someone who DOES NOT want to think about something to do it. So I have no problem with people determined to hate, be sarcastic to hide lack of good arguments, dismiss facts, etc.

Please, hate away.

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kapala
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:56 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:34 pm 
 

Someone has an unwarranted persecution complex. I would hardly call personal observations based on some kind of superiority complex, and someone's tumblr "data".
You really don't have much experience with women, let alone women who listen to "extreme" metal, do you? Your observations about males and females smack of someone who has little life and social experience.
I think you need to read the excerpt you posted again, especially the last paragraph, and reflect a little about what you've posted about women (or "girls", as you've referred to them a few times).

And, finally, because really, you've dug quite a mighty hole for yourself on your own, I'm sure Jo Bench would disagree with you. :)
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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
Posts: 9902
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:53 pm 
 

metal as a whole is much more popular than it was fifteen years ago. I went to my first shows around 95/96, and while bands generally did their best, the concerts themselves were almost always pathetic. Attendance was minimal, nobody seemed to give a toss, big name bands like Deicide could not even get a date booked in a city or draw more than a few dozen people if they did. I'm sure some places in North America had a much better scene, but even so, I've heard it was pretty shitty for metalheads all across the board. If you seriously believe things were better then, I don't know what to say to you, aside from a guess that you've never been in a struggling band and don't know what it's like to go to a foreign city to play a gig and have to pay out of your pocket for all your gas, hotel and food expenses. Such things are what keep bands, even great ones, firmly stuck in their own backyards.

so yes, of course more people are around than were back then, and some of them are women. some will be gone in ten years, some will stick around forever. Asking "where were these people fifteen years ago?" is pretty silly. Nobody is born into this kind of music or scene.
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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
Posts: 5395
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:54 pm 
 

Civil wrote:
Tl;dr sexism
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9015
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:59 pm 
 

I... don't even.... what?

I won't even bother to respond to this kind of degenerate, myopic, ignorant stupidity, but does this whelp realize that the biggest heavy metal website (that would be this one, no bragging, it's true) has been founded and built by a woman?

Oh, but of course, it's "one of those exceptions" he can just handwave away. Or maybe he thinks I did it for the street cred. Yeah, that must be it. :durr: :nono:

Subrick wrote:
Civil wrote:
Tl;dr sexism
:)
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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kapala
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:56 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:02 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
I... don't even.... what?

I won't even bother to respond to this kind of degenerate, myopic, ignorant stupidity, but does this whelp realize that the biggest heavy metal website (that would be this one, no bragging, it's true) has been founded and built by a woman?

Oh, but of course, it's "one of those exceptions" he can just handwave away. Or maybe he thinks I did it for the street cred. Yeah, that must be it. :durr: :nono:


I'm sure you've dealt with the endless stream of asshats for a decade, for street cred. :lol:
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Go ask a Swede by the way. [...] They would probably tell you that the only way to be BM is to wear a mace in your pants.

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TadGhostal
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:31 pm
Posts: 782
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:06 pm 
 

Wait a second, wasn't your argument that the retro-doom scene is for hipsters who like to dress a certain way, especially women? Holy shit, don't you realize that the quote you posted doesn't support your arguments at all? First off, it's about the plight of the female metal fan, many of whom feel shut out by the attitudes of males in the scene. Undoubtedly, this is quote on which you are hanging your hat:
Quote:
women made up what I would estimate to be no more than one in four patrons at the metal bars. Non-male fans of the genre where even more scarce than that number would suggest, as many of those women informed me that they were not fans of the music and had come with friends or dates.

But this is only talking about women at metal bars. And it is followed by a discussion with a female fan who talks about why she doesn't feel included in the bar scene! And those who try to penetrate it deal with all sorts of resistance, best highlighted by this quote:
Quote:
During the course of my field work I also noticed that female metal heads seemed to feel the need to demonstrate their authenticity more often and more loudly than the males. This occurrence is likely due to what others observed as a tendency for male fans to view females as inauthentic posers who got dressed up to be seen with their boyfriends.

And of course, they are talking about people like you, who just previously said:
Quote:
in all subcultures, be it jazz, rock, blues, metal, goth, and so on, women, for whatever reason, are always the minority and are predominantly attracted to it because of the looks and the fashion and the social status. Music is always in second place, for good or bad.


But your argument was that retro-doom was a hipster fashion show (for girls!), and you haven't actually supported that thesis. You've just made a lot of statements about how women can't match men in various genres of music without actually saying why they can't, except that women are more liking to discuss the way a song makes them feel than the production techniques (silly girls!). Isn't one of the main obstacles that women in bands face that listeners, particularly male listeners, refuse to take them seriously because they are women? Of course men and women create art in different ways. Are you saying that there is only one way to make metal (or jazz or soul or blues or whatever) and that women are incapable of doing it the "right" way simply because they have vaginas?

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TadGhostal
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:31 pm
Posts: 782
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:09 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
I... don't even.... what?

I won't even bother to respond to this kind of degenerate, myopic, ignorant stupidity, but does this whelp realize that the biggest heavy metal website (that would be this one, no bragging, it's true) has been founded and built by a woman?
Oh, but of course, it's "one of those exceptions" he can just handwave away. Or maybe he thinks I did it for the street cred. Yeah, that must be it. :durr: :nono:



But the real question is...do you appreciate production techniques and different brands of guitars? :roll:

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Cursarion
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:56 am
Posts: 581
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:14 pm 
 

Civil wrote:
I won't keep repeating myself much because I don't feel like it, but this is from a book about metal and identity:

What book? Whose research? Your own work? Citing an unnamed source is baaaad. :P

However, that research seems quite flawed already based on your post. Why is metal all about genders and roles and stuff like that? Seems to me someone had a conception about metal, started "researching" and after he/she got results that could be interpreted as supporting the original conception he/she just put it all together... After merely scratching the surface.
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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
Posts: 9902
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:20 pm 
 

Civil....

Let's assume that you are right about the general differences between men and women in various subcultures. Are you so fond of the status quo that you rebel against the notion of women attempting to change their status within the scene? From my perspective, supposing that most of your assertions are correct, it is a good thing that we are seeing women in the scene attempting to alter the general perception of their sex by proving that they are, in fact, just as capable, dedicated, involved, and so on, as males.
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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:20 pm 
 

Civil, have you ever met a woman? I used to be a raging sexist, too, but since meeting two, maybe three, women and engaging them in conversation I've found them quite pleasant in small doses.
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Civil
I'm not sexist, I have binders full of women friends!

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:58 pm
Posts: 112
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:33 pm 
 

I'm not a sexist, because I am not anti-women, I do not hate them or think little of them. I just know they are different.

I think it is awesome when talented women make metal music. I have all the respect in the world for Jo Bench, I love BT. Also I don't like the band but the girl on Cerebral Bore (is this the name of the band?) is great. So are Liz from Electric Wizard, a wonderful band which I like very much, and Laura from Kylesa. Excellent players. Excellent musicians. Hope to see more women playing good music in good bands in the future, althought the history of subcultures proves that in the last 100 years men are firmly the forerunners and driving force into the making of popular music. And classical music as well.

As we know, women compose a tiny minority in these scenes, specially in rock. It is a fact.

Not very impressed with the reactions of hate and distortions of what I have calmly brought forward.

Just one note, regarding one of the distortions:

"Wait a second, wasn't your argument that the retro-doom scene is for hipsters who like to dress a certain way, especially women? "

I like the way you get everything I said through the thread and distort it to one minuscle point which has nothing to do with anything I have discussed, trying to make what I said be something completely different and simplistic. I've dealt with people like you before.

It's great to see a cheap shot, a lack-of-character distortion like this made, just because you can't back up your points with a minimum of logic or coherent argumentation.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9015
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:06 pm 
 

Quote:
I'm not a sexist

Hahahaha are you for real?

Quote:
Not very impressed with the reactions of hate and distortions of what I have calmly brought forward.

You post a bunch of sexist, offensive drivel. Even if you do so "calmly", what the hell did you expect?

Quote:
just because you can't back up your points with a minimum of logic or coherent argumentation.

You first.
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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TadGhostal
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:31 pm
Posts: 782
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:08 pm 
 

Civil wrote:
"Wait a second, wasn't your argument that the retro-doom scene is for hipsters who like to dress a certain way, especially women? "

I like the way you get everything I said through the thread and distort it to one minuscle point which has nothing to do with anything I have discussed, trying to make what I said be something completely different and simplistic. I've dealt with people like you before.



Dude, you're full of shit. Until your 2 previous posts, every post you made in this thread was about image-obsessed hipsters. The point was so "miniscule" that you made it over and over. You then narrowed it down to women, for whom you said music was a secondary concern as opposed to fashion and social status.

Some of your own words:
Quote:
There's a huge hipster metal scene focused around stoner/doom and 70s revival stuff. (...)Roadburn Festival would be the epitome of that. It's hipster central there. Metal that is "artsy"."intelligen", "profound" and above all super image-oriented and stylish.


Quote:
but for sure Roadburn is the Meca of image-oriented, 70s revival, image-obsessed doom/stoner hipsters now. There are crossovers of that scene with all things necro and kvlt, and with the obvious usual suspects of the hipster metal scene, Southern Lord stuff and pseudo-avant garde like Sunn. It is more and more becoming a complete package of an "elite" of super image conscious people who are obsessed with their "doom as fuck" image and kvlt style.


Quote:
I mean metal hipsters, more of the Mastodon kind of school. Not true metal people but super-image obsessed metalheads who are into all things cool, kvlt and want to seem "occult" and intellectual. It's a new thing. Not your usual hipsterism but a development of hipsterism within metal.


Quote:
"true" metal people are less concerned with the fashion aspect of things, not that the image thing is not important, of course it is, but to the new stoner/doom hipster crowd an artsy, psychedelic and kind of intellectual image is very important.


Quote:
I didn't say that image is not important to "average" metalheads. I said is is less important (check out the guy with a budweiser t shirt on HM parking lot, Jus Oborn from Electric Wizard wouldn't be caught dead in such pedestrian, ordinary, unsophisticated clothes) and that the values of the doom hipsters are different.


Quote:
It doesn't really matter if Oborn dressed up for the photoshoot or not. It is the image the hipster stoners want to convey after all. That type of affectation didn't exist in metal until very recently. That's my point.


Quote:
The image is more important than anything else. Than to be creative. To be a part of a cool "scene" is the most important aim. And even the MUSIC itself must be tailored to be cool. Hence the safeness of the "retro" gimmick, or the "post metal avant garde" thing as well. (...)Nowadays things are much more niche and image oriented. With even the music serving as a base for the image, in my view.


Quote:
Hipsters are defined predominantly as a group of people whose interest is exactly in trying to look like something. They want to be perceived, above all, as cool, intellectual, detached, etc, etc. Choose the hipster sub-genre you want. The thing is the look. They are the posers of today. So wanting to desperately "look" and "sound" 70s is pretty lame to me.


Quote:
some bands are just in it to do the live reanacting/live RPG/70s time machine, and even the music is just a background to that.


Quote:
Of course there is well done, interesting doom/stoner. But it is very hip and trendy at the moment, so it gets the attention of a LOT of people who are in it just for the "image points" it brings. Doom/stoner metal is old, very old, but it's been overhyped right now and it is very, very, very fashionable. The ammount of girls who are in it just to "look the part" is impressive.

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Ball Cupper
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:51 pm
Posts: 107
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:19 pm 
 

Civil, I want you to prove your knowledge of other peoples' tastes (saying "I see it everywhere" is p. useless), and prove that they aren't actually into the music even though they're in bands and create music that they enjoy and are involved in the metal scene and listen to bands that they rock out to occasionally and good luck with that!!!!

When you come back with this proof, boy are we all going to be embarrassed! our Posting Careers are FINISHED, and you can stop nailing yourself to that cross of yours!



alternatively, you could say the same stuff again and pretend that's proof, I guess that's good too! we all find our own way through life, and if yours is kinda like a verbal groundhog day then hey go hog wild

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OneRodeToAsaBay
The Doll With the Hideous Spirit

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:39 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Oh, but of course, it's "one of those exceptions" he can just handwave away. Or maybe he thinks I did it for the street cred. Yeah, that must be it. :durr: :nono:
No, obviously it was for FASHUNZ. *twirls hair*

The irony of a dude talking about women being into metal for the 'look' is particularly amusing, especially as there's a hell of a lot of dudes out there who post GRYYYYM posed photos of themselves on various social media sites yet have relatively scant musical knowledge. This is strictly anecdotal but some of the best metal geek-outs I've ever had were with fellow women who knocked my socks off with their depth of knowledge.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:05 am 
 

Funny the two "most metal" people I know are women: Cheryl (ex-Witches Brew owner) and Annick (Cauchemar). Anecdotal, but hey, let's not kid ourselves, it's not like this discussion is about facts or evidence... :lol:
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
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Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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Riffs
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 am
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Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:22 am 
 

Civil wrote:
Kapala: in all subcultures, be it jazz, rock, blues, metal, goth, and so on, women, for whatever reason, are always the minority and are predominantly attracted to it because of the looks and the fashion and the social status. Music is always in second place, for good or bad. Extreme music barely had any women at all associated with it 20 years ago. Now the situation is very different. You still are a minority, but there are more women since becoming necro, cult, stylish, vintage etc became something very interesting and fetishistic look-wise.

But, to all of you who make a point of not seeing the point of all the things I have said, and that make of point of not understanding the fact that the original poster has lifted about this BEING a trendy thing which is happening.... fine, haters gonna hate. :-)

There's nothing I can say to you which will change your will to hate/disagree and not acknowledge the facts I/others bring up. That's fine with me. :-)


The problem is that you are mixing facts with made-up theories based on your own virginal understanding of women.

It's one thing to make an observation on a group of people, whether they men, women, blacks, etc... it's another one to pretend you know the peculiarities of the situation and everyone's inner motivations.

The person who is most obsessively making observations based on image and fashion on this thread is you. The chicks who have posted here don't really seem to care how these people dress. You're telling us anything with a vagina "always puts music in second place" and yet, that's exactly what you've been doing here. Maybe that should tell you something. As you say, feel free to "hate/disagree and not acknowledge the facts I/others bring up"
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Xlxlx
May contain traces of nuts

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:24 am 
 

Well Riffs, you know that thing about projecting your own shortcomings and prejudices unto others? Yeah.
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Civil
I'm not sexist, I have binders full of women friends!

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:58 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:47 pm 
 

I have spoken about the music, and I explained why some of it is of no interest to me because I personally believe it is tailored to suit an image. You can re-read the previous posts to try and understand. I did it earlier on the thread.

Or you can try to distort what I am saying again, as you have been doing. Feel free.

On the subject of women and rock, as I have pointed out, they have always composed a small minority of the rock community; a minority of the fans, and a even small minority of the musicians, with virtually no female musicians, unfortunatelly, making a fundamental contribution to the genre.

There are exceptions but yes, they are exceptions.

These are facts, not my opinion. Just look at the bands registered at Metal Archives. The number of females in bands is miniscule, very, very small. The number of females in bands that have created something that has changed the genre is almost, if not, next to nil.

These are facts, not my opinion or personal "understanding" of women.

They are also very concerned with image, make up, style and so on. As the research I have posted above shows, many of them go to bars and so on only to follow dates/boyfriends, and have no interest in music. On the other hand almost all men in a metal environment/concert will be there because of the music.

You can look for the reasons for that in different explanations, suit your own conclusions and work backwards to prove them, etc.

But the facts stand.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:56 pm 
 

There are more male musicians, sure, but that just means that metal is generally more of a guys thing (nothing wrong with that), and doesn't say anything about the nature of women in metal at all - as several women here have displayed, they're very much interested in the music. If you think what you are saying is factual, then you are a hopeless retard and a misogynistic piece of garbage. You honestly think you can gauge the interest in music by, what, looking at a few chicks at some concerts you went to? "Research," ha, what research exactly? Did you go up to women at shows and ask them what they were doing there? Did each and every one of them tell you that they weren't interested in the music so much as the fashion? Gender by way of influence on metal's history has nothing to do with anything except that, factually, a lot more guys in the 70s and 80s picked up guitars and recorded albums than women. A statistic which is also changing more and more these days.

And furthermore, this whole thing about "calmly stating facts" is such bullshit, and has nothing to do with anything either. The misconception that calmness over the internet helps your argument is pretty faulty when your argument is bad, and ridiculous.

And image-driven bands, nothing wrong with it really. It's called showmanship. It's called having fun and playing with themes, putting on a good show for the audience. That's all.
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Last edited by Empyreal on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BastardHead
Magic Mike

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:58 pm 
 

You say facts (there are comparatively very few women involved in metal, nobody denies this), and then you say bullshit (they care more about image than music, which is preposterous generalizing). That's really what it boils down to. When people call you out on the bullshit part, you claim they're going against the facts, and then do fuck all to back up the ludicrous claims you make, instead just continually pointing to the obvious (there are few women compared to men in metal) and claiming that that somehow proves the bullshit part.

You know how lawmakers sometimes make up a really stupid law and then tack on something they actually want on to it in hopes that whoever votes on it lets the part they actually want through? Like "It should be illegal to shoot paintballs at an orphanage whilst flying with a jetpack" shows up on the bill, so yeah you vote it because nobody should be acting like Jackass Rocketman, but one of the stipulations involves an unrelated thing about parking meter revenue that you unwittingly signed into law. What you're basically doing here is having people say they don't want the parking meter revenue going to whatever controversial cause you try to sneak through, and are countering with "OH SO PEOPLE SHOULD JUST PAINTBALL ORPHANAGES FROM THE STRATOSPHERE ALL THEY WANT, IS THAT IT?!"

Not the best analogy, obviously, but it's the same principle.
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Riffs
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:47 pm 
 

Civil wrote:
On the subject of women and rock, as I have pointed out, they have always composed a small minority of the rock community; a minority of the fans, and a even small minority of the musicians, with virtually no female musicians, unfortunatelly, making a fundamental contribution to the genre.


I don't think anyone will dispute these observations. The problem is how you subjectively interpret them to pretend you know what goes on in people's heads.

The fact that females constitute a minority of the fans, for instance, doesn't mean they're only interested in the superficial aspects of the scene.

On a related note, that kind of talk does nothing to make women feel welcome. I've often wondered how many females are turned off from the scene by misogyny like what you're displaying here.
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Civil
I'm not sexist, I have binders full of women friends!

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:58 pm
Posts: 112
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:16 pm 
 

Riffs, you have no right to call me a misogynist. As much as your biased view "wants" to pigenhole me into being one, I am not one. And the points I have made are about the conditions of the production of music and how I see the data relating to the facts.

I have underlined my appreciation of female metal musicians and made it clear that I would like to see more of them involved. It doesn't happen, hasn't happened in a significant number in popular music, ever, for a number of reasons, some of which I have exposed. There are honourable exceptions.

But the driving force of popular, and erudite music, has been done, all throughout human history, both in the west and in eastern cultures (Chinese, Indian, Japanese, Middle Eastern), by men. These are facts. Not opinions.

To pull the "misoginy" card, so that people can point at me in horror and anger, is a conventional cheap shot, a low-blow, a distortion and a lie, used by someone who, again, has little strength in his arguments.

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Ball Cupper
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:51 pm
Posts: 107
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:23 pm 
 

Civil wrote:
They are also very concerned with image, make up, style and so on. As the research I have posted above shows, many of them go to bars and so on only to follow dates/boyfriends, and have no interest in music. On the other hand almost all men in a metal environment/concert will be there because of the music.

ahahahaha you can't be serious. This is just Full Retard. Care to cite some examples? We've already seen that tumblr thing you posted a bit ago, and it doesn't support what you said at all (instead, it said that because of people like you, women feel pressured to prove their metal in a variety of ways including dressing the part).

Maybe people like you should stop damaging the metal scene, and stop assuming the worst about other peoples' tastes and excluding them??? Sure you'll say something like "I have no problem with women being involved in metal", but your attitude expressed here is definitely a reason why so many women are reluctant to get in to metal. Instead of taking ladies' tastes at face value (as you would with a man), you nit-pick so that you can discard their opinions.

Women face more resistance when getting in to metal than men do, and it's because of opinions like yours. Attitudes like that can only keep away "true metal fans", and excludes quite a few different perspectives on metal.

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Because I'm bored, and it's kind of related to the current discussion, I'm gonna lift some quotes from a book called What are You Doing Here by Laina Dawes. It's about a black woman's experiences with the metal scene. Whilst the focus is more on race, it does often touch on the issue of gender in metal as well:

Quote:
The woman was wearing an extremely short black leather miniskirt, and a fitted black leather vest, and she was covered in tattoos from head to toe. Her face was heavily made up, and she wore dog chains and tons of silver jewelry, along with knee high stiletto boots in the sweltering heat

So, we've got someone who many men in metal would see as "not actually in to metal", and it seems like the author might come to a similar conclusion:

Quote:
The other black woman was dressed so provocatively that I didn't take her seriously. She was at a Napalm Death show, after all, and most likely seriously into metal. Owing to her getup, however, I felt that she was trying too hard.

Seems kinda like something you'd agree with? Well, that view is pretty much the shallowest way of approaching the whole issue. Later, the author says:

Quote:
I continued to mull over how I unfairly judged the black woman I saw at the Judas Priest and Napalm Death shows based on how she was dressed. I though about how her clothes also made her look like she was wearing a shield; she was literally armored like a tough girl nobody should ever think about approaching. Ditching my prejudiced - and admittedly ignorant - initial observations, I wondered if she simply wanted to be different from everyone else.


She goes on to make the point that women have to really up the ante to even be taken seriously, and that a woman might just like the music and the people but dress in a particular way because it is expected to be hypersexual in appearance.

Of course I now realise that I've typed all this out only for you to not read it, but it's there for anyone who's interested!

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Civil
I'm not sexist, I have binders full of women friends!

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:58 pm
Posts: 112
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:27 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:
.

The fact that females constitute a minority of the fans, for instance, doesn't mean they're only interested in the superficial aspects of the scene.


I didn't say that.

I said that they are a minority of the fans and musicians, and that in my experience the majority of them are more interested in superficial aspects of the scene. This is my experience of being 20+ years in the punk, hardcore and extreme metal scenes in the USA, Europe and South America (where I have lived and travelled extensively). I also backed it up with an excerpt from some research.

You have ignored it all and put it as if I pulled this out of nowhere.

I also underlined that there are exceptions. And of course that there are females who are superb musicians (I quoted examples myself, more than anyone here) and I absolutely acknowledge that there are females who are absolutely interested in the music, as much as any men.

But, like the minority they are in the music scene, they are also a minority of the women in the music scene. This is my point.

This is me correcting only one of your deceitful distortions of what I have said. Keep distorting. See if it sticks.


Last edited by Civil on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ball Cupper
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:51 pm
Posts: 107
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:35 pm 
 

Civil wrote:
You have ignored it all and put it as if I pulled this out of nowhere.

For all the evidence that you've come up with, you might as well have. Sure you've seen stuff, but what does that even mean? You could've just seen some stuff and not made any further attempt to understand, to scratch beneath the surface. The only things you've referenced is a tumblr blog that says the opposite to what you thought it did, and "dude I've seen some shit". Excuse us if you're not taken very seriously!

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Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 242333 subjects

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
Posts: 8066
Location: Québec
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:40 pm 
 

Quote:
"All of these subcultures, jazz, blues, heavy metal, rock, soul, whichever, are male-dominated, and all the important, groundbreaking musicians of it are male."
YEP, Janis Joplin, Etta James, Edith Piaf, Barbara Streisand, Céline Dion are all unknown and not important in their genres. Right...

Quote:
"In the 80s and 90s extreme metal was all but DEVOID of women, period. No women used to listen to Hellhammer, Bathory, etc"

Proof? AH RIGHT, there's like none except perhaps that they weren't many women at the shows (but that's underlining another subject: hostile sausage fest)

Quote:
However, hard data and facts point to the conclusion that the general female public, both as audience and as musicians, just do not produce the same level of quality in terms of music as males. We have had the whole of the 20 century with sucultures, like I said, ranging from Jazz to rock, and no female musician can beat, or even get close to the work developed to Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, Ottis Redding, Jimi Hendrix, Chuck Schuldiner, and so on.

That's sexism without ANY KIND OF HARD DATA. Do you even know how a professional, scientific research is done? 'cause you mention these "facts" but never includes any links to the actual work. Yep, perhaps there's not a lot of women who were huge names in the musician scene back in the day, but this was more because of their actual social status than because they weren't interested. Considering women got the right to vote only in the 1920s in the US, it's quite apparent that discrimination was prevalent in all spheres of society.

Be mad against Riffs if you want and say that he has no arguments, but NO ONE is supporting any of yours, everyone must be evil feminists/socialists, I guess!

Anyway, this is getting out of hand guys, let's go back to the main subject, please. This is not a suggestion.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9015
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:04 pm 
 

Civil wrote:
I also backed it up with an excerpt from some research.

Bahahahaha no you didn't. Your research was not cited, and moreover, didn't even support your own position.

Quote:
I also underlined that there are exceptions.

Of course you acknowledged the exceptions, because they prove you wrong. And any time someone refutes your garbage, you can just conveniently hand-wave it away as another exception.

Quote:
This is me correcting only one of your deceitful distortions of what I have said. Keep distorting. See if it sticks.

No one has distorted what you said. TadGhostal amply demonstrated how full of shit you are.
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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xThe__Wizard
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:59 pm
Posts: 830
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:07 pm 
 

Is this really a problem? This happens in every genre and scene and yes it's really annoying seeing girls at punk shows when the toughest thing they listen to is Siouxsie and the Banshees but no one complains about it because people need to get laid.

Civil wrote:
These are facts, not my opinion or personal "understanding" of women.

They are also very concerned with image, make up, style and so on. As the research I have posted above shows, many of them go to bars and so on only to follow dates/boyfriends, and have no interest in music. On the other hand almost all men in a metal environment/concert will be there because of the music.


Have you ever conversed with females before? That's kind of the dynamic for the most part man. All girls like make-up, image, style because girls don't like being ugly. I know a lot of guys who go to bars even when there are bands playing they don't like because its their favorite bar. You don't know anything about this world.
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Last edited by xThe__Wizard on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Metal_Detector
Reticular Modular Unit

Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:15 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:21 pm 
 

The basis of this thread is so ridiculously sexist and unfounded that I can't believe I'm even bothering to respond to it, but I'd just like to throw into the ring that I've conversed with many female metalheads that are just as well-versed and genuine in their love of this music as I am (if not more). These include a cheerleader my age who worships Nile, Septicflesh, and Slumber and an accountant who regularly listens to obscure funeral doom. Oh, but I'm sure they're into it just for the 'scene' or for the 'kvltness.' :roll:

So yeah, this is obviously (as others have figured out) bullshit. And as for the 'distortion' of your comments, Civil: we couldn't make your words any more laughably juvenile, so there's no way we could make them out any worse. Anyway, that's just my perception of the matter at hand.

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kevin43
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:02 am
Posts: 2
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:30 pm 
 

Okay, ive got to "chime" in on all of this...hip...not hip...cmon...i do see the point about being trendy and all that nonsense, and yes alot of Doom/Stoner bands are more about fashion and imagery then the music, but to say female metalheads are posers....so Brittany from RWAKE is a poser???? Liz Buckingham from Electric Wizard poser? i think not my young grasshoppers.....as an old(43)metal dude i never thought that id even see or participate in a discussion such as this....its Metal dude...our world isnt supposed to be about hipsters or fashion or any of that crap....and for the record "hipsters" are something other people call people....these folks people call "hipsters" would and dont call themselves that..."in the know" maybe is more suitable....not trying to be an ass or and old grumpass just a little bothered by this topic....Doom...Retro Doom whatever man.....Doom is doom, and the fact that critics or anyone is even using the term "retro" in regards to doom is just ridiculous......yes its old...and yes there werent many chicks around in the early days of say Pentagram or St. Vitus, but then again there wasnt many chicks in the audience in the early days of RUSH either. Maybe i'm missing the whole point of the original comment maybe not...just saying....let the people who call people hipsters worry about all that dumb shit....we're metalheads man......chill out.....Ive known most of the cats in EYEHATEGOD for years...prime example of newer Doom(if you call 15yrs newer...)and would you call them Retro Doom...i certainly hope not....just saying that heres a Southern Doom Metal band who've been a huge influence on numerous bands and have traveled the entire world....so are their wives/gfs posers...cmon now

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kevin43
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:02 am
Posts: 2
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:33 pm 
 

To Metal_Detector....i couldn't agree with you more on the sexist thing....its like is metal supposed to be a "sausage fest"......i can't believe, like yourself, that I'm even responding to this.....

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HydroDrone
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:31 am
Posts: 109
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:05 pm 
 

To civil, I can't believe you would waste your time writing this crap.

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Thashierthanthou
Not Semi-Witty Enough for his Own Title

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:04 pm
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Location: Mushroom Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:07 pm 
 

Some girls are into metal because of the image/getting tons of praise by metalheads simply by having a vagina. Some girls are into metal because they like the music. The same applies to female band members Who cares, it doesn't effect you what somebody's motive to listening to/performing music is.
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