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Metallumz
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:02 pm
Posts: 145
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:32 am 
 

Many bedroom bands especially Black Metal ones it seems come from the imaginations and talent of those with minimal equipment but yet exhude enough musicianship to string the notes together coherently enough to make a decent demo/EP/album/etc. Would you say knwing every chord, riff, scale on a guitar or instrument is instrumental (excuse the pun) into making a stand-out or is it simply atmosphere and the fact a individual artist knows little/more about playing a guitar is just the backbone of it all.

Is there any defining difference between someone who has only played Guitar for a handful of months, compared to someone who knows the ins and outs of everything. And yet still play the same bedroom Black Metal type of atmosphere & production.

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Voorvader
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:30 am
Posts: 41
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:08 am 
 

Knowing the ins and outs of anything will always be beneficial, however not necessary. Raw talent has much to do with being able to write without music theory knowledge; some people have it, some don't. What I recommend is to stop worrying about knowing music theory and to just begin writing. The more you think about it the less fun it is for the musician and the less person the piece of music becomes. If you're finding yourself trying to compose music such as the band Wintersun, then yeah, music theory will most likely be needed unless you've got god-like raw talent. But, if you're playing black metal, most likely you will find that just knowing basic scales will be all you'll ever really need to know in order to become talented; personally I played for about 5 years, noticed their were patterns to the riffs I was creating, and when I played with an expert music theorist once he informed me that I'm excellent with scale patterns even though I don't know what they were called at the time.
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xThe__Wizard
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:59 pm
Posts: 845
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:12 pm 
 

I used to know a good amount of music theory and I am probably going to learn more since I want to play keyboards but its not neccessary. Knowing scales is nice and knowing what the intervals sound like can help you create riffs easier.
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FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:55 pm 
 

In my opinion instrument virtuosity doesn't equal good songwriting. It does help you explore and implement more ideas you may be striving for, but it's not the be all end all. There are some bands with overwhelming amounts of technicality that couldn't write a good song to save their lives, and some bands that are very minimalistic but still have great songwriting. The Faceless for example, in my opinion barely have a sense of decent and intriguing composition but are still very skilled instrumentally, whereas Neurosis, a band that isn't always that technically proficient (save for Jason Roeder, he's always adding subtle technicalities and his tribal rhythms are intoxicating) has amazing songwriting and a great sense of composition, build and climax. I personally think songwriting matters more because it's what makes music stick with a person more and for a longer time. Or you could just make your musical career off of sample drum tracks and jerking off your guitar for 3 minutes.

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:15 pm 
 

it's not necessary. I don't know much of anything, never been trained or took lessons. But I've composed, recorded and released around 3-400 songs. it's all of what you make of your time.
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FearTheNome
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 8:41 am
Posts: 372
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:22 pm 
 

Plenty of very fine bands have no theoretical knowledge whatsoever. I see musical knowledge as additional tools in your toolbox. It can't possibly hurt you because you can always choose not to use it, but it gives you some extra options that you don't have if you lack knowledge. However, for some jobs, those tools are completely unnecessary and probably counterproductive if you insist on using them when it's not appropriate. Same thing with technical ability and really everything else.

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:49 pm 
 

FearTheNome wrote:
I see musical knowledge as additional tools in your toolbox.



This is the best way to think about it. Or as someone else once said. Music is a language, you might be able to communicate without knowing how to read it or write it, but it could help you at the very least communicate it to someone else.
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xThe__Wizard
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:59 pm
Posts: 845
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:57 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
FearTheNome wrote:
I see musical knowledge as additional tools in your toolbox.



This is the best way to think about it. Or as someone else once said. Music is a language, you might be able to communicate without knowing how to read it or write it, but it could help you at the very least communicate it to someone else.


I think that is where music knowledge is helpful but not neccessary. Knowing intervals and terms can help writing process get a long faster rather faster because its concrete.
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:59 pm 
 

That is if everyone is on the same page with it, I find that just simple tabs are far more effective.
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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:09 pm 
 

You can either learn it formally or figure it out yourself - the latter is also known as "not learning music theory", but you're really just figuring it out informally as you go along. I refused to formally learn music theory for a long time, but when I started learning it, I found that I had figured out a lot of things the hard way, but I also acquired some tendencies and ideas of how to do things that way. You can do a lot of things without formally knowing any music theory, but with the amount of free information available on the internet, it's worthwhile to figure out how chords work, learn the scale patterns on the neck of the guitar, and gain a basic understanding of modes. There's a misconception that understanding these things gets you boxed in by them, but that's only if you think about music purely in technical terms.

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thrashinbatman
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 421
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:44 am 
 

You don't need to know everything, but that's OK, because you will never learn everything. I recommend learning at the very least basic theory. You know, keys, chords, scales, etc. In learning these things, you'll see what exactly is behind what sounds "good" in music. For me personally, I've found that learning theory, how scales work, and how intervals can affect the sound has greatly helped my writing and playing, and in learning so have gradually progressed to where now I can figure out how to properly express the mood or tone I wish to convey, whether it's anger, happiness, or something like an Egyptian or middle eastern vibe.

If someone says that it will hurt your creativity, don't listen to them. It may hurt you at first, as you attempt to learn what works and try to stay within that, but as you gain confidence, you'll break out of those rules. Learning theory isn't just knowing what works, it's knowing how to use what doesn't work to a great effect. As an example, it's much easier for me to get things to sound off, unsettling, or dissonant, now that I know the rules, and how to break them. Essentially, if you let it box you in, it's your fault.

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xpsychoblissx
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:18 am
Posts: 294
Location: Phoenix, AZ
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:58 pm 
 

I'd personally put it like this:

If you have more overall musical knowledge, there's more places you can go with your music. However, I do believe that talent is similar to common sense--some people are just born with it, it seems. Others will have to put extra effort into composing their music to reach the same level of creativity.
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soul_schizm
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:55 am
Posts: 658
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:39 am 
 

I just encourage musicians to keep going in the way that seems best for them.

If you want to learn some music theory, then go for it. If you would like to engage in formal training, that's great too.

Great music comes from all quarters, in my experience. It's such a personal thing, I try to stay away from forcing someone into one path or another.

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Voorvader
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:30 am
Posts: 41
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:04 am 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
That is if everyone is on the same page with it, I find that just simple tabs are far more effective.


Verbal communication is A LOT faster than written communication; plain and simple.
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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4975
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:06 am 
 

Voorvader wrote:
ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
That is if everyone is on the same page with it, I find that just simple tabs are far more effective.


Verbal communication is A LOT faster than written communication; plain and simple.


Written communication is much more precise than verbal communication when communicating about music.

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Voorvader
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:30 am
Posts: 41
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:31 am 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
Written communication is much more precise than verbal communication when communicating about music.


Go watch professionals in the studio; the majority of them use verbal communication. It's faster, and the more you do it the more precise it gets, thus generating better productivity.
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:27 pm 
 

Go work with people who you don't see every day or even on a weekly basis and see how much is retained after 2-3 weeks. your verbal discussion or the written presentation.

and funny you meantion about watching pros in the studio... just watched that last cannibal corpse dvd the making of.. and it's written.

But I see you are only 17 and think you already know what's best for everyone since you have had so much experience in the subject with all the many years of working with multiple musicians from all walks and ways of life near and far.
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Voorvader
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:30 am
Posts: 41
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:03 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
Go work with people who you don't see every day or even on a weekly basis and see how much is retained after 2-3 weeks. your verbal discussion or the written presentation.

and funny you meantion about watching pros in the studio... just watched that last cannibal corpse dvd the making of.. and it's written.

But I see you are only 17 and think you already know what's best for everyone since you have had so much experience in the subject with all the many years of working with multiple musicians from all walks and ways of life near and far.


I don't understand your need to get all defensive about the subject; it's sign of uncertainty. Yes, I am 17, but I also am friends with international musicians, an Grammy Award-winning producer, and have devoted a large portion of my time to helping others and researching subjects in order to further my knowledge of the music business, theory, ethics, etc...

Cannibal Corpse may do that; all I'm saying is that it slows down the process when verbal communication isn't the #1 form of communication being used.
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 12088
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:24 pm 
 

I'm not defensive, I'm pointing out your flaws in your logic when people obviously with more expierence are teling you otherwise. And you being friends with someone who is noteworthy doesn't make you noteworthy or knowledgable.

I point out that you are 17 cause you have the typical 'I know everything' stance that every teenager gets, so it's more hilarious about any advice you have to offer. Esp after your display of knowledge on who uses what amps in the other thread. Don't bother responding any further, while I've found your posts amusing I don't think I can continue reading the same mindlessness. So on mute you go.
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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4975
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:17 pm 
 

No more arguing. Any more arguing/off-topic comments in this thread and you'll be fired into the sun. Discussion is fine, as long as it's constructive and not petty.

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kingnuuuur
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:35 pm
Posts: 2138
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:30 pm 
 

Voorvader wrote:
Zodijackyl wrote:
Written communication is much more precise than verbal communication when communicating about music.

Go watch professionals in the studio; the majority of them use verbal communication. It's faster, and the more you do it the more precise it gets, thus generating better productivity.

You do realize that professionals in the studio have 99% of their stuff written down and practiced long before they hit the studio, right? And you do realize that studio time can be pretty expensive and therefore better spent not talking about which scale you think fits best on X passage, right?

Voorvader wrote:
The more you think about it the less fun it is for the musician and the less person the piece of music becomes. If you're finding yourself trying to compose music such as the band Wintersun, then yeah, music theory will most likely be needed unless you've got god-like raw talent.

You don't even need to learn music theory to write music like Wintersun. A couple of days on Guitar Pro and you're set. :lol:

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Voorvader
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:30 am
Posts: 41
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:46 pm 
 

Clearly the administrators are only here to try and prove that they are the all-knowing gods. I offer my advice, and if people disagree, they disagree; if people agree, they agree. Calling me uneducated and inexperienced is just ignorant considering they don't personally know me. If they don't like what I have to say, simply say so an I'll defend myself; that's how the readers can figure out which advice they wish to take. By "muting" me they're simply stating that they don't want this forum's users to offer advice and that the administrators are the only ones worthy of offering anything. If I disagree with a admin why does that automatically make me incorrect?
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Voorvader
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Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:30 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:47 pm 
 

I still stick by my original post concerning the user's question.
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xThe__Wizard
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:59 pm
Posts: 845
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:43 pm 
 

Voorvader wrote:
Clearly the administrators are only here to try and prove that they are the all-knowing gods. I offer my advice, and if people disagree, they disagree; if people agree, they agree. Calling me uneducated and inexperienced is just ignorant considering they don't personally know me. If they don't like what I have to say, simply say so an I'll defend myself; that's how the readers can figure out which advice they wish to take. By "muting" me they're simply stating that they don't want this forum's users to offer advice and that the administrators are the only ones worthy of offering anything. If I disagree with a admin why does that automatically make me incorrect?


I think its because you come off as a know-it-all man. Honestly with communication ideas you want a balance between them. You can translate everything onto paper but sometimes its better to verbally communicate it.
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Voorvader
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:30 am
Posts: 41
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:08 pm 
 

xThe__Wizard wrote:
Voorvader wrote:
Clearly the administrators are only here to try and prove that they are the all-knowing gods. I offer my advice, and if people disagree, they disagree; if people agree, they agree. Calling me uneducated and inexperienced is just ignorant considering they don't personally know me. If they don't like what I have to say, simply say so an I'll defend myself; that's how the readers can figure out which advice they wish to take. By "muting" me they're simply stating that they don't want this forum's users to offer advice and that the administrators are the only ones worthy of offering anything. If I disagree with a admin why does that automatically make me incorrect?


I think its because you come off as a know-it-all man. Honestly with communication ideas you want a balance between them. You can translate everything onto paper but sometimes its better to verbally communicate it.


Yes obviously written communication is needed in certain situations; I never said there shouldn't be a balance.
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xpsychoblissx
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:18 am
Posts: 294
Location: Phoenix, AZ
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:23 pm 
 

One of the more "pro" bands I was in used a mixture of written and verbal communication. When I first joined the band, all the music was on Guitar Pro for me to learn. We also verbally went over the songs in person to get a better understanding. I learned about 5 complete songs and memorized them in about 2 weeks of typical practicing. A mixture is definitely best...
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Det_Morkettall
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:02 am
Posts: 610
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:26 pm 
 

Steering away from written vs verbal (because it bores me to tears), back to the OP question.

No, one doesn't need to necessarily know everything about musicianship, but knowing a lot will help greatly, especially if it's music in the realms of psychedelic rock/glam rock/pretty much anything that isn't hard rock or heavy metal. I find heavy metal incredibly easy to write because the riffing is so standard and easy for me (I've had lots of practice writing). However, this only came after a process of trial-and-error of writing heavy metal. Currently, I'm trying to do the same with psychedelic pop/rock... not fun, man. Not fun in the least.

The most important aspect is probably learning how chords work, as well as chord progressions.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9723
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:37 pm 
 

Voorvader wrote:
Clearly the administrators are only here to try and prove that they are the all-knowing gods.
Strange thing to say, considering no administrator has spoken to you.

Now an actual administrator is here, and is telling you to please drop the pouting, childish attitude. Thanks.

And posting for the record: Zodi, please stop overreacting over this guy's posts, I understand you want to keep things constructive but I don't think he's in bad faith, he just has things to learn.
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Voorvader
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:30 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:04 pm 
 

Det_Morkettall wrote:
Steering away from written vs verbal (because it bores me to tears), back to the OP question.

No, one doesn't need to necessarily know everything about musicianship, but knowing a lot will help greatly, especially if it's music in the realms of psychedelic rock/glam rock/pretty much anything that isn't hard rock or heavy metal. I find heavy metal incredibly easy to write because the riffing is so standard and easy for me (I've had lots of practice writing). However, this only came after a process of trial-and-error of writing heavy metal. Currently, I'm trying to do the same with psychedelic pop/rock... not fun, man. Not fun in the least.

The most important aspect is probably learning how chords work, as well as chord progressions.


That's for non-technical music. I agree with the idea that trial & error is important, as it is the best way to learn because it sticks in your head a lot better than any scale ever will.
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Det_Morkettall
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:02 am
Posts: 610
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:49 pm 
 

Well trial and error practicing a scale (over-and-over) sticks in your head just as well too.

I'm not sure what you mean by the term non-technical music, by the way, as I've written pretty long, technical pieces by that process...

Nevertheless, yes, it's the repetition that forces you to remember and embed it in your brain because you've done it so many times. It's a cool process because you start with something you like, then you go back a week later and think to yourself "by God, this is dreadful", and you fix it up into something a little more satisfactory.
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Voorvader
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:30 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:00 am 
 

Haha yeah, that whole week or two later thing is quite hilarious and sometimes disappointing; sure helps though.
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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:44 pm 
 

Metallumz (OP), I used to think talent made technique and critical skill into pocket change. Eventually I hit a kind of ceiling to what my creativity could achieve because I didn't know more about my options. Curiosity is probably the state which should most guide investigation.
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