Well, those are the rules.

What kind of "solution" do you propose? Jesus, this band is just one of the more popular ones, multiple submissions can happen. Our rules stand regardless, this is an exceptional case that occurs sometimes, but it's by far not the norm, so the "danger" of multiple users creating multiple drafts and submitting at around the same time is negligible. This is a minor nuisance at best. Drafts are private, not even mods can see them so we obviously won't give regular users the ability to check them. Next thing you know, people would complain about other users sneaking a peek and stealing their drafts or something.

I appreciate you putting effort into your submissions, but if you'd read the rules carefully you would know that a band needs a valid release already out. Obviously advance copies/promos don't count. Only the real, definite release available to the public. Lots of things can change before a proper release and that's why we don't go with "this will most probably be released". It may seem paranoid in some cases, but we either have this rule or we don't. And it's a very simple and logical one, that rule.

If you, as you say, don't care about being the first, then I don't see the problem. Some of the more popular/anticipated bands obviously attract more submissions and sometimes yours doesn't get through. Unfortunate, but as I said that's a comparably rare occurence. We do our best to be as fair as possible, considering completeness, effort and the time of submission, but you can't always please everyone. If you let that discourage you, well, as you wish. This isn't a race where we are obligated to make it as easy as possible for users to make sure they get their submission accepted before any others. Complaining about "poor moderation" because of this is a ludicrous overreaction and quite insulting, I might add. Do you have any idea how much time and effort the staff (voluntarily) invests in this site?

Both Overtorture submissions should have been rejected for the simple reason that the album is not out yet. In fact, I already rejected a third one last year for the same reason.

And that digital Hatriot single is just that: a digital single. The rules clearly state that we don't consider singles valid digital releases. The band's blacklisting happened because it was submitted so many times in the past despite it not having a physical release. You'd be surprised how often we have to blacklist bands because so many people simply cannot comprehend that one simple rule about needing an already released album. I guess it's fair to remove Hatriot now, since our policies have changed and they might release an acceptable digital album, but if that single is all they have the band won't get accepted at this point.

Thank you for your comprehension.

Well, and what about this?

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Dre ... 3540347575

Same music, different vocals. This is metal and with different vocals (more "metal" than this probably) not? I can't understand, try to be fair.

Heh, I knew this would be brought up eventually. Well, it's not the same material and I remember the three songs on the only demo were acceptable DBM, whereas the Italian Dreariness' full-length seems to stray too much into shoegaze territory overall. Maybe the Mexican one needs to be reviewed again, I can't say for sure now, this whole silly band war you guys had/have going on makes isolating the facts a pain in the ass. Anyway, we won't approve your band because another questionable band is on the site. We don't do those comparisons. If anything, we'll stand by our rejection of Dreariness and consider the other one for deletion.

No problem, but trust me, the 3 songs in that album are also in the Italian release, just the vocals change.
You can read also the lyrics and probably are more "DSBM" than the others. In my opinion is not fair, can't judge in different way the same product.
Anyway, i will accept what you will decide, that's just my opinion. And I think is logic, at least..

Ok, they consider not like a metal band, but there are some influences of metal.
Maybe your standards are too conformist.

Sludge/ Doom Metal bands Dead Commuter, just got rejected for being "Post Hardcore" I'm listening to their music right more and I don't hear any "Post Hardcore". Did you actually listen to the music?

We're a site listing metal bands, not bands with some metal influences here and there.

Yeah, we judged it as not metal. This wasn't sludge/doom, it was certainly in the realm of post-hardcore/post-metal akin to Shellac and the like (which are not accepted). Sorry.

No. When a mod rejects or approves a band, it's only based on their looks. Long hair and inverted crosses? APPROVED.

I checked this song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUDaHLloXvA. While there's some metal elements, it's not enough to be on MA. The heavier elements are definitely more rooted in post hardcore.

Edit: Az is faster

http://dead-commuter.blogspot.com/?m=1
"Tendril" can be downloaded here from the official Dead Commuter Blogspot, can anybody give me a second opinion? I honestly don't here any kind of Hardcore, specially not Post- Hardcore. Yes they have other influences but their main style is Sludge.

Sorry, just noticed someone already have me a second opinion after posting that other comment.

I just checked the song you said you heard, that one is the ambient song of the album. Download the album from the link I posted http://dead-commuter.blogspot.com/?m=1
And listen to the rest of that album, you'll hear Sludge/Doom Metal

Yes I understood a pure breed of metalheads. Sorry.

Razor: The link is dead and anyway, you got 3 opinions, deal with it

dale crover: I don't like your tone, the name of the site is Metal Archives, not "heavy music which sounds a bit like metal Archives". Tu as reçu une réponse, le sujet est clos.

Oh, I didn't know the link was dead, since I own their albums I don't download the album, or else I would have uploaded it to Mediafire for you guys to listen to. Alright, then. Thank you for your time

Are not likely, I understood your operation dude.

Hey guys, trying to add Annorkoth but they are black listed, new album out here on cd -

http://depressiveillusions.com/items/cd ... -last-days

I also tried adding Caladan Brood, also black listed, debut cd will be out on the 15th of Febuary, Might be a bit early to add but I thought I would get them in the queue

http://www.northern-silence.de/files/ca ... echoes.htm

They are blacklisted because we don't consider them metal. Is that new album any different? If so, provide links.


Uhm, no? A band needs something already released in order to be submitted. No reservations in the queue.

Sorry Azmodes I meant to post a link -

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vHts5XrFRPI

No problem regarding Caladan Brood, I will try again in Feb.

Sorry, that isn't really any different from the material that got them blacklisted. Unacceptable.

I thought they might qualify under atmospheric black metal but I respect your decision, thanks anyway.

Edit - not sure why I tried Caladan Brood as I know this rule, i'm not thinking straight (eyes roll).

They should be changed or updated if they're a hinderance, we're not talking about the ten commandments here.
Had you read my posts thoroughly you'd know, here it is again: why not locking the band until the valid debut's release date?
That way you have zero risk of contributors' efforts going down the drain, and anyway until that moment the band page can't be created, no?
The problem is taking the time to try and contribute and then having it all flushed down the toilet.
As already posted clearly I'll stick to corrections and updates.
You're insulted too easily then, and still don't read carefully: I said the moderation process for new bands submissions is poor, it allows data which can't be published to be submitted, even by multiple users and blindly too, that should be inhibited or at least generate a warning, you don't like locking the band? OK, what about a simple check of the valid debut release date against the submission date (if the former is higher than the latter the system tells the user it doesn't fly)?
Also, I don't need to know or be able to check what's in the queue or in some other user's drafts, the system already knows it all and should do something with that, like avoiding time wastes on all parts.
No, and do you have any idea how much time and effort the contributors (voluntary) invest in this site? But here's what we both know: at least 3 submissions have been trashed for Overtorture and twice as many for Hatriot, that means users wasted time filling them out and mods did too reviewing and rejecting them, the process is clearly flawed.
You're welcome, but you don't have it, and again: it's not your or the staff's fault, the present process is flawed.

@darXcore

The process is not perfect, but it's also not at fault, in this case. You wouldn't have felt like you had wasted your time if you had originally read the rules. I mean, it says right here, very clearly in bold: This demo/album must be released already. An upcoming release is not acceptable: wait until the actual release date before submitting the band. If, as you make clear, you knew that the release date for the album was upcoming, you would have saved yourself a lot of time and effort acknowledging it. The only one who is at fault here is yourself.

Why don't we "lock" band pages before a release date? Other than it being unnecessary to track every band's pending release dates, we expect our users to read our rules and comply with them. We shouldn't have a need to "lock" forthcoming band pages because we expect our users to understand that they must wait until the release date to submit. You don't have to make the band page all perfect for that day. You can always wait until the band is approved to do that.

The blacklist is a tool of last resort. We won't go around and add every single band without a release we can find to it because people can't understand one simple rule. Even if we limit ourselves to the more high-profile bands it's still unfeasible. And when the band has a release we should check again and remove it at the exact date? There's no way to automate this. Also, this shouldn't even be an issue, the rules are clear. If people submit before the release date it's their fault for being too lazy to read the rules. It is NOT our job to do that kind of thinking for submitters. We don't do pre-checks on potentially submittable bands, we formulate clear rules for adding bands and then review the submissions we get. Users are expected to submit within our framework of guidelines. The band queue is actually pretty efficient and well-oiled most of the time.

And, as it is, all bands that get submitted before the release date are rejected anyway. Same difference as "locking" them.


Oh but you do. The system is not in place to do your thinking for you. Checking the queue is easy enough.

You know, I can sympathise with people who feel frustrated when they invest time into a submission and then see it rejected because of another, rarely as it happens. Really. But I wouldn't call the moderation process poor because of it. It's a time-tested tool, but some glitches are to be expected with all the human factors going into it and the number of submissions we get each day. This is a minor "problem" as I said. And really, it's not the end of the world. The energy invested in this discussion is already way too much in comparison to the issue discussed. So your submission got rejected because another, more complete one was chosen instead. (That didn't even happen here, though!) Come on, it's not exactly a 20.000-word thesis or something. Yes, there are bands with more detailed discographies, but it's possible you can still report/add some corrections/updates to the existing entry.

And, heh, you say I'm insulted too easily and yet you chose to refrain from band submissions from now on because of this. Your skin doesn't seem to be too thick yourself. I admit I misread your exact phrasing, but I just feel defensive each time this site is called faulty for reasons that lie with the users and not its mechanics.

Maybe my comprehension isn't perfect, but I'd say you submitting a band before it has a release while the rules clearly forbid it isn't exactly stellar cogitation either. With all due respect and all that. Sorry for being frank, but I already had to deal with a lot of complaining today.

@ Derigin & Azmodes: Your points I see, you both don't seem to fully appreciate mine: at least 3 submissions have already been trashed for Overtorture and twice as many for Hatriot, that means users have already wasted time filling them out and mods have too reviewing and rejecting them, that tells me it will happen again and again, it shouldn't, intelligent systems shouldn't allow for that, even in spite of silly users, the process is clearly flawed cause it kills effort on both sides, contrbutors' and mods'.

I'm not offended by any stretch of the imagination, I'll keep on contributing, once more sticking to corrections and updates, that way I'll limit the time wastes myself, since the process and/or the system presently can't or won't do it.

Yeah, it's clearly flawed because some people are idiots who can't be bothered to read two sentences. Sure. We need to rethink the whole process and add needlessly complicated features!

Sorry, it seems we just have to agree to disagree here.

We don't have to agree, but it'd be nice if you put some effort into reading and comprehending: the process, meaning silly users plus silly system and fantastic mods, killed effort on both sides and it will do it again, it's flawed, period.
Removing the human error would fix it, correct, but has user education achieved it? No.
Can the system be setup to prevent it, yes.
See?

How exactly should the software automate this anyway?

Let's say you submit a new band, like this Overtorture, and add the album, with a release date later in 2013. When you try to submit, the system checks for the earliest date entered in the discography, sees that this date is later than today, and so automatically blocks it with an error message saying "Please wait until the release date of the first album before submitting." The band remains in the draft.

Okay, sounds nice... except, consider this case:

Let's say you add the [fictional, example only] thrash band Desecrator from Peru who had a self-titled EP demo in 1989. You don't have the tracklisting, but you found an old zine mentioning the EP, compares it to Sodom and Kreator, and with a tape cover scan. You provide a scan of this zine article as evidence and it looks very legit. But you don't have the tracklist, so you can't add the demo to the discography. Instead you add the demo title in the Additional notes. Then you submit the band.

What should the system do? Block the submission because there are no releases? Oops, can't do that, we'd prevent tons of bands which have valid releases that are just not entered in the discography (at least not yet). So ok, you allow bands without a discography entered.

So what will the idiots who don't read the rules do? They'll add bands upcoming albums and just won't bother entering in, completely bypassing the release date automated check. And then we'll have a whiner who will complain that the system is "flawed" and that it's "failing". This is a classic example of working so hard to make a system foolproof: it doesn't work, because the universe will always invent a bigger fool.

Well, I did read and comprehend. And I already addressed these points in my previous posts. So did Derigin. The system is working pretty well. We won't mess with it because of some small, unavoidable issues, namely failure to read the rules which should be obvious required reading. Morrigan makes a very good point as well about the feasibility of one possible system doing what you propose. There is a limit to how much we're willing to babysit users, a modicum of common sense is expected. We won't indulge brainless mentalities.

You're simply getting hung up on some unpleasant detail and ignore how comparably well the queue and its moderation works in general. Just because there's always going to be some lazy/dumb users doesn't mean that the system is flawed. Sometimes people get their dicks stuck in vacuum cleaners, oh no, better rethink the concept of creating suction to remove dust!

BTW, the funny thing is that you could just resubmit your draft once the album is out and it would probably get approved. No effort lost. I'd also like to add again that multiple submissions of the same band by different users (and them being in the queue at the same time) are a comparably rare phenomenon.

Morrigan is the only one who's got a valid point, he's considered an alternative and outlined the shortcomings of it, you've done nothing of the sort and instead come up with the moronic vacuum cleaner analogy, which is both wrong and insulting, that from the only offended party of this conversation.

You're also forgetting that my first submission wasn't rejected cause the valid debut ain't out yet, rather proof of metalness was requested (in spite of a link to the label's page with a sample song being included), so I had to spend more time on it only to have it rejected again for the proper reason, and that's a moderation mistake, plain and simple, but Porman has already apologized for that (http://www.metal-archives.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=2195082#p2195082) and taken into consideration my comments too, countering with valid considerations, all that without getting pissy, that's an adult, his time was appreciated, yours not so much.

Anyway, carry on and let human error be the only issue in your mind, I'll carry on contributing sticking to corrections and updates, just shed the attitude, also feel free to have the last word, I'm outta here (the forums).

You do recognize that all the time you've spent bitching about wasting your time in this thread is also wasting your time, right?

Up to the encounter with you and Azmodes I considered that time invested in stopping further/future time wastes, you've both proven me dead wrong.

Also, asking questions, addressing shortcomings and making suggestions is far from bitching, but your command of the language is prolly as poor as your self control, goodbye.

You first. Rarely have I ever seen so much energy spent on bitching for such a non-issue.


Okay...


So much for that.

Double-irony!

Well, good bye. (Maybe?)

I really wonder about VRANTIA rejecting as a METAL band or project from Metal Archives...


The first time you alleged that Vrantia doesn't have any physical copies around, now you changed your rules - adapting them to the new times, hurra - and now said you can't because VRANTIA IS NOT METAL, is just AMBIENT music with NO INFLUENCE FROM METAL AT ALL!!!...







Are you kidding me???... VRANTIA is not ambient, IS METAL, with an strong classic & ambient influence, but is METAL... So, if it would be the problem, why you have on your page band like ARCANA or DE INFERNALI??? Why do you have a category labeled AMBIENT with +1000 bands???... The same for Hagalaz' Runerdance, Paysage d'Hiver, Darkgaard... They aren't metal at all... They don't have Electric Guitars, bass, drums, metal instrumentation... VRANTIA does...Why are they metal? Why is VRANTIA not METAL?









Take a listening from VRANTIA album MENASHI SHAWA before taking a real opinion and not for just listening the first minute from the album...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whmPsHEsock&feature=share&list=PL0545CAFFADAAC911

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzRsMqWE_Eo&feature=share&list=PL0545CAFFADAAC911

http://youtu.be/3Y-zy8DNQ2E

gabrielwilde: You were already given an answer. Also, I agree with Morrigan on her assessment of the music.

Her answer is not objective, what about other bands? I find this subjective and unjust...

Thank you for the response! I was thinking of posting up the songs, but I may just try again in april - june when we release our split with Hohl, as the material is more "metal" than what is on the debut.

thank you, anyway!

This is about your band, not others. Each band is judged individually. You have now been given an answer by two moderators who have listened to the music. What more do you want? Morrigan is the owner of this site and she has the last say in this. Please accept the decision.

I'm wasting my time... I don't care about anymore... Thanks for nothing... Bye