But if they DON'T want to be new? (To be honest, Blood Ceremony do write some pretty unique stuff, I think). Trying to be "unique" for the sheer fact that it makes you "less hipster" is just as bad as playing 70s style for the street cred. You think all the metal bands who throw in ridiculously superficial slap and samples and call themselves "cyber-funkcore" or whatever are doing it because it comes from their heart? There are plenty of bands who try being weird just for the sake of it.

I've met my fair share of vapid people who seem (key word is seem) to be better at name-dropping "obscure" bands than actually having a real interest in music - whatever music - and I've met the same who claim to be massively into literature, video games, etc. I know which kind of people we are talking about here, and I can almost guarantee none of them are devoting their lives to the medium. If these bands played a handful of gigs and lost interest, you might have a case, but it is obvious these bands are into what they are doing.

After seeing the enormous rise in Doom bands, I wouldn't doubt it.

I don't know if "music is coming" from every musician's heart out there.

But I know that some bands attempt to work with music and create something new, and - regarding what we are discussing - some bands are just in it to do the live reanacting/live RPG/70s time machine, and even the music is just a background to that. I'm just not interested in that.

I'm interested in bands who are concerned with working with the music and with the genres and moving these things forward. Because, to me, all the rest is too much of a fashion show and it only goes around the fashion. Even the music becomes a base for fashion. It's fine if people wanna be rockabillies and pretend they are in the 50s, or "stoners" and pretend they are in the 70s and throw on that image, and a soundtrack to support that image and go on a loop, but that's the behavior of a youth subculture of very little to offer to me.

biggest new trend I've seen that has something to do with metal is the rise of stoner rock/metal bands like Red Fang. Not too sure exactly how it shapes up compared with the likes of Ghost etc, but it's there.

I don't know how many so-called "retro" bands you've heard, but they all sound "pretty new". Even the bands that are obvious Sabbath worship. Which bands would you say are in it for the fashion show? Which bands would you say, aren't?

You're sounding very hip yourself, judging both people and music based on fashion. "Oh my god. Is he really wearing bellbottoms? That is so 1971. What a poseur."

yes; I watched that band grow from being timid and playing the tiniest and shittiest of bars (both my band and BLood Ceremony did one or two of our very first shows together) into a real confident and hardworking entity, especially in the live environment. The records are cool, I agree, but the real treat is the live experience. I think the upcoming record will be great...a little faster, and simultaneously more complex and dirtier, judging by the two or three tuens Iv'e heard so far.

Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing, because so far the only band that's been targeted as some sort of "hipster" stoner fashion show is Electric Wizard, which to me seems more like the poster doesn't know very much about Electric Wizard but instead found a picture that he thinks his theory. I'm wondering why no one is leveling the "image obsessed hipster" charge at other heavy-image bands like Manowar or Immortal or the retro thrash acts that were all the rage a couple of years ago? The retro image thing is nothing new; even early doom bands like Trouble and Saint Vitus had members that adopted retro looks. Even over the past decade, I've gone to concerts where I've seen kids who are probably 15 or 16 dressed like it was 1986 and I don't think they were "hipsters". There are always musicians and bands who are interested in the past, the best ones are the ones who put their own spin on it instead of simply copying what was already there. I don't necessarily have a problem with retro-sounding bands adopting retro-fashions. Its all about creating a vibe. The whole "hipster" thing is tiring and it seems to me like it's now used like "emo" was a few years ago. If someone doesn't like something, it's automatically "hipster". It's got no meaning anymore.

As far as the initial question posed in this thread...I think the retro sound is a trend, but I don't think it's THE NEXT BIG THING, if we are looking it as the next thing to penetrate the mainstream. I mean, first of all, I wouldn't really consider any of the bands named in the first thread as part of the same movement and I think several other people have pointed out why. Some of them don't even play metal. Ghost is the only retro-sounding band that has achieved anything that might really qualify as "success" and they don't sound like any of the other bands named. There are a lot of retro bands popping up, and it's not just '70s sounds or doom. You've got retro thrash bands and bands copping a NWOBHM vibe, too. I think a lot of it is partially a reaction to the desire of some bands to be as extreme as a possible and I think part of it is people going back and discovering old bands and really digging the music. The internet has made some much that was obscure or forgotten available now.

Dressing up in certain ways outside of regular clothes is just theatricality and showmanship. It's for fun most of the time and doesn't mean anything about "hipsterism," which is a word lots of people will throw around without really any definition.



Wow, this is really nonsense. So bands aren't allowed to look anywhere for inspiration but forward? Pretty narrow minded view of what constitutes art then, if paying homage to the past is considered lame no matter what. There are way more dimensions to this whole thing than you're considering, like the fact that you can very well create interesting music without "trying different things." It's all about songwriting, not silly avant garde-isms or hollow attempts at trying to be new. Inspiration comes in all forms. You can just as easily be a "poser" for trying too hard to do something new than you can for trying too hard to look like the 70s or whatever; it goes both ways and if you try to deny that, then you are simply deluding yourself and do not really understand what you're talking about.

In addition to what Ghostal and Empyreal have already said, I want to point out that metal, generally (at least the truer forms of metal), has never been afraid to look to the past for inspiration, and in fact endorses this historical checking on a regular basis. The key is not to steal other peoples' riffs, of course, but to further develop sounds that might have been buried or forgotten had not people had a romantic nostalgia for the past. I recently saw a local live band that sounded, to my ears, uncannily like Fates Warning c. 198586. I'm more than happy to hear music harkening back to this style, so long as they don't think it's cool to outright lift and plagiarise ideas. There's plenty of room within musical niches to grow without attempting to be some overexciteable blender that fuses sounds none of us really want to hear. We're metalheads; we enjoy this sort of thing; to this day I cannot imagine why any new band would really try hard to sound like Blasphemy, but quite a few do, and they're considered "true" because they adopt that same sort of image as well.

In addition, I like being able to talk to my friend's dad about a new band that he really likes (Blood Ceremony again)...the guy loves old rock and metal but was never enthused about checking out bands from after the 80s. To him, stuff like a Blood Ceremony show is a breath of fresh air, and is getting him excited about music again. That's pretty cool, no? And he's by no means the only case.

So much this. Reminds me of my father, who hadn't checked out a new band in probably ~20 years, in spite of really being into music in his younger days, hearing Graveyard for the first time, and getting excited about music again.

Maybe. Maybe not. It's all sort of underground or semi-mainstream, it'll never gain mainstream exposure like Thrash, Speed or Hair metal. Because lot of people don't understand doom. And 'trend' and 'metal' these two words don't get along.

P.S - No offence but this discussion is borderline 'meh'.

Maybe.

Civil, I think you need a hobby.

This Jess and the Ancient Ones album is pretty solid!

Seconded.

It's insane to think how many people DEFEND hipsters in the metal community. I wonder what would happen if this young generation were around during the nu-metal scene. Was that cool too?

Civil's point is image is overriding everything nowadays and people buy into it and retro garbage because it's novelty. Do you think any of these current female fronted occult rock bands grew up listening to Sabbath, Saint Vitus, Pentagram, or Trouble? To say metalheads who wear band shirts to support their favorite bands and long hair to headbang is the same as bands taking pictures with a 1970's camera and bellbottoms is insane. The point is bands today are obsessed with looking the part yet their music fails to deliver (the retro death metal/thrash/black metal bands are guilty of this as well). Why listen to this when you can listen to the bands I mentioned above or even Cathedral? Because it's hip now and most of the fans have no idea who Trouble or Cathedral are and found out about obscure rock bands through youtube.

I remember there was a time when people were interested in multiple genres and bands because they LIKED them, not because they felt obligated to like them so they wouldn't feel left out or because they're the flavor of the month. This is pretty much why "metal" in the 2000's + will not have many bands that will be remembered like the bands of yesteryear. Like goth metal or experimental Norwegian black metal in the late 90's/early 2000's, this too shall pass.

Retro doom? Mainstream? I've considered this boatloads of times and figured that it just might be the new wave. Although album-oriented rock is still huge, the fact that single-oriented rock is so forgotten and few rock musicians get the same press as the biggest pop, dance, dubstep, rap, and RnB stars has made many feel that rock and roll is dead. And when a rock band does make it into the charts, it's always a modern rock (aka, post-grunge/nu metal/pop punk inspired) act and that breeds discontent that 'good old-school rock' is extinct.
If retro doom is somehow able to find an audience amongst these fans, we could see an explosion of inerest.
My biggest fear, however, is what doomster999 said, but to a greater extent. Not only will people 'not get' doom metal in the mainstream, but long-time fans of thrash, speed, and death metal certainly will disavow it entirely for not being "fast." Ironic, since it was when Black Sabbath made hard rock '*slower* and heavier' that metal was even born, but the common mainstream acceptance of metal is that it can't be slow. That might also be a boon, however, for people who honestly think doom metal is unique and new. Aaaand completely ignore 'Black Sabbath'.
So I feel that, if retro doom were to arise, I'd be happy if it were even as accepted amongst fans of faster metal as nu metal was. That might be the best it'd get.

yeah, lots of bad music doesn't survive, thank fuck, but you still sound like a tired old man making meaningless generalisations about bands you probably know little about in this post.

Why is it a big stretch to assume the current retro rock bands listened to Sabbath and the like back in the day? What, do you think they were all listening to Sum 41 and Green Day 5 years ago and then just jumped on the metal trend in the blink of an eye? I doubt it. If plenty of 17-20 year old kids on this forum have dabbled in that kind of music today and can very well appreciate it unironically and passionately, then I don't think it's unrealistic that a new wave of bands 10 years older on average could have been into underground metal growing up, too. Underground is underground - it is not some impenetrable fortress which only 40 year old tape traders and people who were there can claim exclusively.

I'm not getting why it's a sin to like retro metal. It's not because I want to be a part of some crowd. I just like the stuff. Liked it since I was a kid. I don't listen to Electric Wizard or Pentagram just because hipsters do. I'm just oriented towards '70s style music. Metal, rock, funk, pop, reggae and all.

That's the same point bitter old farts bring up about every musical currents ever.

It's not about "defending hipsters" (whatever the fuck that means) so much as being amused by the total loss of perspective by some people here in order to validate their opinion. What happened to just saying "I don't like X style of music, I think it's shit"?

What gets me is people believing that they can tell, without even having spoken to someone, based on what band they happen to be in, what clothes they might dress in, or the fact that their doomy rock/metal band happens to be fronted by a woman, whether that person is truly dedicated or worthy and how long they've been listenigng to metal. That's pretty absurd. There are poseurs everywhere, and guys who don't really give a fuck about what style of music they're involved in and just want to play in a band....yes, even in old classic bands. Neither of Celtic Frost's drummers in the 80s knew shit about metal, and as it happens it didn't stop them from being really good at it. On the other hand, that guy in the "hipster sweater" (whatever the fuck that is) might know more about metal than you and have a bigger record collection. SO what? You don't like his band? I'm sure he can take it. What's the big deal anyway?

Exactly! The thing that drives me crazy is that it's never a debate about the music. There is an argument to be made that many retro bands (of all genres) simply go through the motions and don't capture the vibe they are trying to emulate. But instead, it comes down not liking a band due to the imagined motives of people making the music that they don't like, the most bizarre of which is that this music isn't actually important to the people who listen to it/play it. I don't see any connection between Nu-metal and retro doom, but I'm pretty sure that both genres have plenty of fans who actually connect to that music.

I honestly don't care if the members of Jex Thoth or Ghost or whoever grew up listening to Pentagram or Mercyful Fate or whoever or if they discovered the music last week. There are plenty of shit bands composed of people who listened to nothing but "the right bands" their whole lives. If a band releases a good record then that's all I care about. And if they don't, they aren't getting my money.

Probably.



^Truth.

I would agree with your general point if this statement were not demonstrably false. Obviously taste is subjective, but we're getting some top-notch material out of these movements IMO (particularly the psych/traditional doom and OSDM revivals). Uncle Acid & the Deadbeats had one of the best doom albums of the past decade with Blood Lust IMO.

These bands may use a retro aesthetic, but there is still room for new musical ideas within that aesthetic, and thus far I've found that many "retro" bands are succeeding at finding their own voice while sounding retro. Uncle Acid is definitely in that category. I'd put Jess and the Ancient Ones in as well. Christian Mistress and Dawnbringer, while not relevant to the "doom" aspect of this discussion, are definitely retro and have their own voice (moreso on Agony and Opium than Possession for Christian Mistress, IMO).

I'm curious as to how many of the detractors have actually listened to the music, beyond just a few songs.

New trend? I hope so. I'll take retro doom (whatever the fuck that is) over post-sludge djent deathcore any day. At least the music's good.

Hahahaha, burn. Yeah, pretty much. Never seen someone trying so hard at decrying a movement based on non-reasons.

So what? Just ignore them. Who the fuck cares? There are probably a bunch of little kids wearing bullet belts and patched denim vests listening to, or playing, "retro thrash" for the "image points"... again, so what? Such a total non-issue. If that sort of thing bothers you, you need to get a life.

And where were you in 1970 when Black Sabbath released their debut album? Hipster.

Is this different than youngsters dressing like 80's thrashers or XXI century black metal bands using corpsepaint?

The bigotted sexism discussion has been split from this thread and can be pursued there:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=95957

Back on topic now.

What happened to it was what it happened to cultural criticism since Aristoteles Poetic's (and even before). People don't like something and they have thought it through, researched it, gotten experience of it, looked at the history of it, put it into context. And they have information about it and they have reasons for not liking something and they connect these elements and expose it.

It's called having a strong argument, an INFORMED view, critical theory, and so on.

And then, because their data and positions expose or contradict your core belief-system, touchy people like you get offended and personal about it, and twist and distort what they say with lies.

That's what happened.

Now get personal, distort something, throw a sarcastic one-liner, dodge the facts and the argumentation. Say I'm "only talking about clothes" (distortion, I throughly mention and explain my criticism of the music in context with the image and the cultural setting and time of the bands). Do your best, Riffs, you're not exactly a heavyweight of rethoric and argumentation as I have already noticed, it is easy to dismiss your dishonest distortions and selection of words without context to change what others said into what you WOULD LIKE them to seem.

I'm going to bed! All the best.

Obsessively analyzing the clothes of musicians from all eras to determine who is true or not and blabbering incoherently about how you think people are not appreciating the scene for the music is not a strong argument, an informed view or a critical theory.

Hate to break it to you but your methodology resemble Perez Hilton a lot fucking more than Aristotle.

That's a mighty ironic pic from someone who hand-waves anyone who does not fit his preconceived notion of "poser" as an "exception"...

Okay, so there's a lot of talk about "occult rock" bands who worship the fuck out of Coven and the like. What about Sludge? To me that seems far more popular than Doom Metal in a whole has ever been.

Yea, Sludge is the new Grunge. *Sludge. Grunge. Sludge.* They rhyme with each other, see!

But wasn't grunge sludge-lite?

Let's see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCgJayDZg48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkcJEvMcnEg

No.

"Atmospheric" sludge is big these days, but regular sludge? I hardly know anybody in metal circles who listens to Eyehategod, Noothgrush or Grief.

In a way yes. Grunge and Sludge are sibling genres. Both are built upon Sabbathy brand of metal and punk aesthetics. And many Sludge Metal musicians have admitted that they were influenced by the Seattle scene.

Not only that, but The Melvins are often credited as being the first Sludge band as well as playing a key role in the Grunge movement.

Furthermore, Kurt Cobain sang on an early Earth demo (I know, that was drone, but drone is furthermore related to sludge in many ways)

No shit?

I need to look into that.