so if i'm reading this correctly there appears to be no way to tell if a cd has been burned from mp3 files or wav files or flac or indeed even mastered [made from the original master, i'm unsure of the actual terminology]
because they all appear to look very similar
the only way it'll look any different is if it was ripped from vinyl or burned from really crappy files, right?

that's burst my bubble a wee bit, i was hoping there was a way to tell

so if i wanted to make some bootleg cds all i'd have to do rip the vinyl, burn those files to the cd and claim they have "much higher bitrates than mp3s [or some other such nonsense] hence they have to be legit"
i bet the scumbag bootleggers already know about this

It would be much easier to have one original copy of each rare CD and make a lossless copy of it, then you can reproduce the entire audio tracks seamlessly. No one would be able to tell the difference. And yes, according to the graphs and articles linked before you can tell if the source files were low bit rate MP3 files because of the cut-off threshold. Now if the copy is made from high bit rate MP3 or lossless files it's nearly impossible to discern I guess.

Bootlegging is actually pretty easy to do, and given the right amount of knowledge one can do near perfect bootlegs. And my fear is that it will only get worse as these items become rarer and increase in value. If those Amazon CD-Rs are indicative of anything is that a new facet of the CD market is now emerging, one where people only care about having the actual audio in physical format without having to pay loads of money. If this tendency grows one day you'll stop having labels producing actual CDs and booklets, and relinquishing that responsibility towards large distributors/retailers. I dread the day that becomes an actual possibility.

If you use lossless you shouldn't be able to discern as they're bit equal to the wav/cdda. As for mp3 high bit rates tend to get pretty close but that depends on the encoder, you should be able to find something fishy most of the time.

This brings to mind an app I found some time ago when I was very into this stuff, it's called http://www.sonicvisualiser.org and gives plenty of ways to look at sound (I haven't explored a tiny fraction of it). To showcase the application and the wav/flac vs mp3 here's 3 spectrum screenshots (with the default colour scheme) of Carnivore's Race War:

(wav, 320kbps, 173kbps)





The wav versions goes smoothly loosing intensity until 22 kHz, the others have artificial cutouts lower than that. But hen again they can have the cutouts and be sourced from the CD (dunno, weird filtering on the studio on something like that) or don't have the cutouts because the mp3 encoder is really amazing. Anyway, Sonic Visualizer is pretty cool.

Actually that works for tracks but to make an exact CD copy you need a bit more than each of the CD tracks in lossless (you'll need the pre-track gap data, for instance).

True.

Those graphs above are very interesting indeed. It would be interesting to use that program to see if older albums which are lesser compressed than more recent ones have differences above the 20Khz mark. Basically to see if loudness war actively killed everything above 20Khz on modern productions.

I don't think so, if anything, the color intensity would be brighter across the whole frenquency range, up to 22 Khz.

That should never happen, most things happen on the bass, mid and high ranges, little more than cymbals and hit-hats go on the higher frequencies. So the graphic should always be brighter on the bass/mid/high. Check http://obiaudio.com/2010/07/11/eq-chart/

Yes, but since the loudness of the whole signal is being boosted, the higher frequencies (if present) would also be louder (have a higher amplitude than before), resulting in a brighter color in a spectrogram.
Relative to lower frequencies, of course, they will always be less intense, i.e. that upper frequency region on the specrogram will be less bright.
What i wanted to say, though, is that i think it's unlikely that modern Loudness War productions would remove any content above 20 KHz.


Edited for clarity (hopefully )

Yes, you're right, I don't also think there should be anything relevant (cutouts for instance) on the spectogram.

speaking of loudness wars etc [brief thread derailment by the way do we have a thread related to this sort of stuff?]

iron maiden - somewhere in time - 01 - caught somewhere in time
both files ripped to wav from cd using the same method
top = remaster
bottom = original

Yes, that happens a lot. Remember the Abigal remaster I talked to you about (http://www.justiceforaudio.org/forum/vi ... f=17&t=554)? That has clipping all over the place.

But the worse I've seen is Behexen - From the Devil's Chalice, not a remaster but a case study so bear with me. I bought it yesterday from SoM sale for 3€, and upon reading some reviews what most people mentioned, besides the great music, was the lowsy mastering. I think someone made a rookie mistake somewhere as that isn't normal (just listen to it).

Track 01 - Invocation Of Zabulus, just look at how the righ channel (low graph) is completely flat at most of the time:



now with view clipping (red is bad):



Edit: added the waveforms.

whoah, yeah that's really bad.
death magnetic looks similar [but not quite as much clipping] i bet defiled's in crisis album would also look interesting...
it's not so bad if the music is 'fuzzy' already, lots of distortion, death/black metal screams etc
but anything clean sounds appalling, or at least more noticeable

it pisses me off when i change cds and have to reach for the volume control lest i blow a hole in the wall
when i listened to mp3s a lot more i ran mp3gain on them but the only way i can avoid it with cds is to play them in the pc and use normalisation [which i don't want to have to do]

I use foobar2000 with the Dynamic range meter component, when you view the log files it tells you what the bit rate is. Here is one I did of Boris- Akuma no uta, intentionally ripped to my computer with lower then cd quality.

foobar2000 1.1.15 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2013-01-01 19:55:00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Boris / Akuma No Uta
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR5 -1.79 dB -8.63 dB 9:41 01-Introduction
DR2 0.00 dB -5.12 dB 3:22 02-Ibitsu
DR2 0.00 dB -2.94 dB 3:20 03-Furi
DR4 0.00 dB -6.88 dB 12:14 04-Naki Kyoku
DR3 0.00 dB -4.39 dB 6:29 05-Ano Onna No Onryou
DR2 0.00 dB -4.27 dB 4:01 06-Akuma No Uta
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 6
Official DR value: DR3

Samplerate: 44100 Hz
Channels: 2
Bitrate: 329 kbps
Codec: AAC
================================================================================

Just out of curiosity, in what bit rate did you rip the CD? Around 70-80Kbps?

320kbps with the AAC format.

Anyone has the Omen - Battle Cry reissue from Metal Blade with the black backcover with the large Omen Battle Cry?

Just got a copy from an amazon 3rd party (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000 ... 02_s00_i00) very cheap, and some things strike me as odd: it was sealed but one of the spines is torn, it has no inner print on the backcover but comes in a transparent jewelcase, the backcover layout is very much like the limited edition (black with the large band + title) but without the limited edition on the bottom right, the cover is very blurry and the paper feels weird.

Matrix is 14215-2 03 with a DiscUSA logo
SID codes: IFPI L794 IFPI 2D40.

Anyone with a similar edition? I guess I should discard this as a counterfeit and bug the seller, if not for anything else because of packaging + torn spine.

Now I'm confused. You said you ripped the album with "lower than cd quality"... What was it that you were trying to say with your previous post then?

If you post a photo I can compare it with other DiscUSA matrix that I have.
I don't think that logo could be easily faked...

Yes, I guess you're right. In the meantime I contacted Metal Blade and they kindly replied that that matrix data matches for the release and DiscUSA was/is their manufacturer.

Anyway, the photos:

100% LEGIT. Don't worry!
I compared it with my copy of Helstar's A distant Thunder and everything matches: logo, matrix font and ifpi.
The only difference is that I have a date (2/11/05) on the left of the matrix (mine is 14207-2/03)

Metal Blade actually replied?! awesome

Never doubted they would. From NB or CM I wouldn't expected anything but Metal Blade, Black Mark or Osmose, for instance, or any smaller label, I know they are cool and interested guys.

i emailed osmose about the angelcorpse cds a while ago, not a dickybird...

I had this reply from Metal Blade, other than that a talk (several messages exchanged) about a Immortal Pure Holocaust weird issue with Osmose, a reply from Black Mark about a Edge of Sanity bitrotted-to-transparency CD and a reply from Peaceville about the Autopsy Mental Funeral reissue, that I remember.

Got silence from Nuclear Blast about a Hypocrisy Pleasures of Molestation digi bitrotted-to-transparency and silence from Roadrunner when I inquired about the criminal King Diamond Abigail reissue.

I always ask because labels should be asked.

i also got silence from nuclear blast about my immolation majesty and decay cd
the seller i got it from musiccocktail now has some very bad feedback on ebay...
they are in the ukraine not russia and they are a chick not a guy

Ei, maybe she create the ebay account in the 80s and forgot to update the info

I'm not being a troll or anything but I have to ask........... why are people so obsessed with matrix numbers and bar codes and shit? What happened to just listening to albums and enjoying them? I'm all for people still buying physical CDs and shit but wow. Every time I try to sell something on ebay, I get 20 messages asking for close-up pics of the matrix numbers and all these ridiculous questions.

In the case of bootlegs, I understand no one wants fake albums. Of course. But when it's a difference between a first or second pressing, who gives a shit? Just my take. Not in any way an insult to anyone in this thread.

Well, we started this thread because the boards were always flooded with matrix/bootleg requests anyway, so now it's all centralized here. Answering your question is easy, just look at how inflated and expensive many CDs get to be in online selling platforms. Of course one wants to be reassured the money is being well spent, would you spend $50+ on a rarity without checking its veracity? Also many people buy bootlegs because they have no idea of some things like matrix and IPFI codes, so this might prove helpful for those as well.

enter the matrix


i don't consider your comment to be troll-like, it's a fairly reasonable 'observation'
it makes me feel more awesome knowing i'm in possession of an original
some people care and some people don't, hell i've spoken to people who bought cheap home burned cdrs and had no idea until i told them
if you don't like answering those questions, pre-empt them and just put up the info like i do
the fact you even know what this information is gives the buyer more confidence, they think they're buying from a pro

any bootlegs/dodgy versions of
Satyricon ‎– Nemesis Divina [promo] floating about that you guys know of?

There shouldn't be, the original edition isn't even close to rare.

tell that to the moron who booted this vengeance rising cd i have here ha ha ha

You got really traumatized by that one. I bought my original copy of ND for 10€ if that's indicative of anything.

yes, i ran around screaming horribly for a while

the Satyricon ‎– Nemesis Divina cd is definitely a legal promo, cool.

Equimanthorn ‎– Nindinugga Nimshimshargal Enlillara

anyone feel like checking this out and giving their opinion on it?
compare matrix info etc

http://www.discogs.com/Equimanthorn-Nindinugga-Nimshimshargal-Enlillara/release/4186585

Does anyone know if Noise Records ever released Deathrow's Raging Steel in CD. I have checked some sources like Discogs but no refence to a Noise CD version. I recently bought a collection of CD's from a local guy and found this one in CD, it looks like an obvious bootleg, with matrix number RAGINGSTEEL. Does anyone has this bootleg? When was it issued?

these guys reckon it's a bootleg, feel free to add it to discogs man
http://www.musik-sammler.de/album/27873

edit: the headshake smiley is because it's a bootleg not because you're asking about it

In memory of Celtic Frost - Dwell Records compilation

do you guys have this?
do we know how many different versions exist? [mine is the non BMG version with a barcode]
is there some official explanation for the mastering error at the end?
tracks 12, 13 and 14 are all 1 track

it's not on their label page here http://www.metal-archives.com/labels/Dwell_Records

http://www.dwellrecords.com exploded a while ago [2008?] but wayback machine at least lets us have a look
http://web.archive.org/web/20060219093611/http://www.dwellrecords.com/web/page.asp?pgs=product&catid=32&id=825
their myspace page hasn't been used since about 2008 too if i'm reading it correctly.
http://www.myspace.com/dwellrecords1
and i don't see a faecbook page...

There is exactly one CD edition of Deathrow's first two albums, the 2008 ones on Displeased Records. Both those albums were vinyl only releases back then and they were issued for the first time on CD five years ago. There's a funny mistake on the sophomore because it has the song "Scattered by the Wind" divided into two separate album tracks when it's actually just one song. That's also why the track list on the back insert doesn't match the actual CD.