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Veracs
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:17 pm 
 

Seeing the success of bands like Ghost, Castle, Witchcraft, Jess and the Ancient ones, and Blood Ceremony not to mention the legion of smaller acts emulating these bands has caused me to examine this. Is it so much a trend as just bands adding poppy elements to Black Sabbath's early sound, or just people noticing the success of the bands I mentioned and hoping to catch their own fifteen minutes of fame. In any event, I know these bands have a lot of fans here, and some of the purportedly older bands in this style like Hour of 13, Jex Thoth, and The Gates of Slumber in my opinion have demonstrated that you don't necessarily need to sugarcoat your music. Do you see this style of music continuing to grow in terms of popularity with more bands getting label deals, or do you see the bands I mentioned as developing further away from their original like what we saw with the post-bm bands?
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:26 pm 
 

The only band doing the retro metal thing that I've seen reach freakishly high levels of popularity and success are Ghost, but that might just because of my own lack of following the other bands listed. As for the style as a whole, I think it'll stay popular but won't become a radio genre like melodic metalcore did.
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absurder21
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:29 pm 
 

How are Ghost or Withcraft doom? and how exactly is Hour of 13 or Jex Thoth any less melodic or poppy than Blood Ceremony (who mix Jethro Tull prog with Sabbath...Not exactly the same thing here) and Castle (whose just trad doom...)? Bands like these have existed for awhile (like, the 80s awhile) so just consider yourself late to the game.

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Aeonblade
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:46 pm 
 

Definitely just labels and bands seeing the success of this stuff and trying to get in on it. There's been way too many of these poor man's Thin Lizzy/Sabbath bands popping up and labels lapping it up for it to be anything else. Same goes for this gimmicky female fronted crap that's filling up the "scene". I think it'll be popular for awhile still, but it'll eventually die off and be forgotten. I don't think any of these bands are good enough to rise above it and last in the long run. I don't consider bands like Hour of 13 or Gates of Slumber to really be part of this though.

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ancientorder
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:54 pm 
 

Don't you mean the occult rock being the new trend? And yeah, it sure is.

I remember there was the traditional doom (or retro doom if you like) phase around 5-6 years ago when for example bands like Reverend Bizarre and Warning were on the peak of their success. Both also split up on their peaks.


Last edited by ancientorder on Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Frank Booth
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:56 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
The only band doing the retro metal thing that I've seen reach freakishly high levels of popularity and success are Ghost, but that might just because of my own lack of following the other bands listed. As for the style as a whole, I think it'll stay popular but won't become a radio genre like melodic metalcore did.


Ghost is Blue Oyster Cult worship, not retro doom.

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absurder21
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:58 pm 
 

Frank Booth wrote:
Subrick wrote:
The only band doing the retro metal thing that I've seen reach freakishly high levels of popularity and success are Ghost, but that might just because of my own lack of following the other bands listed. As for the style as a whole, I think it'll stay popular but won't become a radio genre like melodic metalcore did.


Ghost is Blue Oyster Cult worship, not retro doom.

Othern then the odd Pentagram-isms, I have no idea why people consider this band doom. They seem like Mercyful Fate meets Witchcraft that then says hello to Pentagram.

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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:08 pm 
 

Yes, replace "retro doom" with "occult rock" 'cause JATAO and Ghost are very far from being doom bands and Castle are, like Absurder said, a trad doom band. TGOS and Hour of 13 are definitely not part of this scene either. Also like Subrick said, the only very popular band in this "very loose style that you don't really grasp" is Ghost and they're not exactly playing on the radios. While Blood Ceremony has a good following, not a lot of people know Castle (at least here, both times they toured here in 2012 with Witch Mountain, the crowd was small) but they're starting to become a known name.

To elaborate on the "retro rock" genre, it's way more popular in Europe with bands like Graveyard, Orchid (American doom band who's now signed on Nuclear Blast) or The Devil's Blood. Some bands are doomier than others and some have doom influences while being rock bands (check Year of the Goat and the aforementioned JATAO) but as a whole, the "retro doom" sound is not quite popular, it's more like a kvlt favorite. It's obviously a trend in doom but to say it's the new heavy metal trend, nah. I think it's more like a trend in hard rock music and some bands are borderline or full blown meta bands. Gotta see the full spectrum for this reality. The heavy trend in my opinion. is being Mercyful Fate "copycats" like Portrait, In Solitude, Attic...

I kind of agree with Aeonblade on this, while I like this "scene" a lot, these are young bands, I'm not really sure they can transcend and become huge household names and will be remembered in 20 years. While it's harder to become a really well known band today, I think we'll be able to recognize innovation without being a gimmick (popes and Satan). I can't really name one band that will be remembered, but I hope they have the integrity and talent of Witch Mountain of The Gates of Slumber.
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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:45 pm 
 

It may be a trend of sorts in the scene at large, but it doesn't really seem to be taking hold much over here. I do notice that some cities/towns seem pretty big into traditional doom type stuff. What's really interesting to me is that I can cross the border and visit Rochester where there seem to be a ton of doom fans and a number of good bands playing, but here in TOronto, there's Blood Ceremony and that's pretty much all. Strangely, while Blood Ceremony do have quite a fan base in their hometown, they haven't exactly spawned any imitators or encouraged new bands to start up in an even remotely similar vein. If anything, good-time rockikn' heavy metal really seems to be the thing here, and not doom at all....

Either way, I don't mind, so long as bands put work into making good music and putting on shows that I want to see. Blood Ceremony are a great live band, and Castle, while they started out sounding really timid, have learned from experience and are now a force to be reckoned with.

I always take bands on an individual basis rather than as part of a scene or style, and some bands will go no further and dissolve while others may thrive. Blood Ceremony is working on a new record now and I think it'll be a little more up-tempo and dirty while also being a bit more complex, judging by the two or so songs I've heard so far.

Occultation are a good band too; I think they hail from New York somewhere, and despite being slow and featuring a female singer, they don't sound a thing like Blood Ceremony, nor like Castle...
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Aszfargoth
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:00 pm 
 

Also, the black metal rightwingers of the esoteric Hitlerism variety apparently have already tapped into this occult rock drivel, so it's definitely The Next Big Thing: http://youtu.be/USVe7drNa2w

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Big_Grand
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:06 pm 
 

I think the beard metal/ hipster metal scene along with just sludge and doom becoming more popular is bringing the old heavy metal style back in general

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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:14 pm 
 

Aszfargoth wrote:
Also, the black metal rightwingers of the esoteric Hitlerism variety apparently have already tapped into this occult rock drivel, so it's definitely The Next Big Thing: http://youtu.be/USVe7drNa2w


Indeed, that wasn't so hot. Is that a bunch of "black metal" guys or something?
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Opus
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:37 pm 
 

Is it really a trend though? Isn't it just a a few fans and music journalists/writers desperately trying to be "different" hyping it AS IF it is the next big thing?
(I'm talking about this occult retro rock thing.)
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Aszfargoth
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:45 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
Aszfargoth wrote:
Also, the black metal rightwingers of the esoteric Hitlerism variety apparently have already tapped into this occult rock drivel, so it's definitely The Next Big Thing: http://youtu.be/USVe7drNa2w


Indeed, that wasn't so hot. Is that a bunch of "black metal" guys or something?


I reckon so. Black Magick SS could very well be a side-project of Australian NSBM act, Wolfblood, but these are merely assumptions because BMSS are, of course, shrouded in a haze of light-brown arcane secrecy. Admittedly, I enjoyed this sample track, but I can't see this band going anywhere, really: the complete tape probably would turn out to be a rather dull, one-sided affair.

This also sums up my opinion on most of the bands named here as representatives of this new flock of occult rock acts. I can also confirm that it's definitely a trending style of music in Europe.

Opus wrote:
Is it really a trend though? Isn't it just a a few fans and music journalists/writers desperately trying to be "different" hyping it AS IF it is the next big thing?
(I'm talking about this occult retro rock thing.)


Judging from personal experience only, many European metalheads are quite keen for this style of music.

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ralfikk123
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:51 pm 
 

absurder21 wrote:
Othern then the odd Pentagram-isms, I have no idea why people consider this band doom. They seem like Mercyful Fate meets Witchcraft that then says hello to Pentagram.


Excuse the language, but how the fuck are Ghost like MF?
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:55 pm 
 

They're Satanic. Duh!
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vengefulgoat
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:35 pm 
 

I also don't get the Ghost and Mercyful Fate comparisions; the similiarities are way overexaggerated. But then again, you hear how much Mercyful Fate was (musically) inspiration for black metal, which is much more ridicolous claim.
Of those bands supposedly belonging to this 'retro doom' wave, I like Ghost, Blood Ceremony, Hour of 13, if you fit in there Doomsword and Dantesco then those two too.
Actually, I don't think any of those bands is just 'doom' like you could say with say Reverend Bizarre. Ghost has close to nothing in common with doom, Blood Ceremony is more inspired by 70's rock and Black Sabbath (which, for the most part is not a doom metal band, and I'm talking about their Ozzy era). Hour of 13 seems to be mostly influenced by actual doom, but there's still alot of traditional metal too. The latter two are mainly epic heavy metal, with probably as much Candlemass influence as power metal one. None of those bands exactly sound like oldschool ripoffs, all have a touch of their own and enough uniqueness to keep it interesting.
I can possiblky 'retro doom' becoming another lame thrend in the vein of OSDM revival, though I don't think it's the time of legions of faceless garbage rising up yet; although I don't follow the scene much.

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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:35 pm 
 

I don't get how you can't hear the KF/MF elements in Ghost, seriously. Just listen Elizabeth and hear how the singer fails miserably trying to provide King-type vocal lines.
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Malthus
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:41 pm 
 

Yes, it is the new trend. As is the use of the colour purple for album art, and borrowed images of topless women from 70's Italian horror films.

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FredSanford
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:15 am 
 

The Devil's Blood is another group in this occult rock uprising. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KySQgaBClW4

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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:28 am 
 

I'm usually very resistant to trends and yet I adore this new upsurge of bands like this. JATAO is top notch and I thank Metantoine every night for showing me Year of the Goat. It's weird because I actually haven't heard Ghost and I'm not really a huge fan of the bands these new guys base themselves off of, but honestly I'm glad this is a thing now. So yes, I'd say it's the new trend right now but I'm glad it is for the time being, as it's still interesting to me.

Now all I'm waiting for to catch on is extreme metal with clean vocals, as right now pretty much just Satan's Host and Desultor are holding down that fort.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:29 am 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
I don't get how you can't hear the KF/MF elements in Ghost, seriously. Just listen Elizabeth and hear how the singer fails miserably trying to provide King-type vocal lines.


They're nothing alike at all. Except that they both sing about Satanic and evil themes.
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Civil
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:09 am 
 

Big_Grand wrote:
I think the beard metal/ hipster metal scene along with just sludge and doom becoming more popular is bringing the old heavy metal style back in general


Malthus wrote:
Yes, it is the new trend. As is the use of the colour purple for album art, and borrowed images of topless women from 70's Italian horror films.



This is exactly what is happening in Europe now. There's a huge hipster metal scene focused around stoner/doom and 70s revival stuff. A bit strange since all this stuff is old, not only the originals but also the copies, Electric Wizard is not exactly a "new" band. But there's definitely a crossover between the post metal/experimental/Isis hipster crew and the stoners.

Roadburn Festival would be the epitome of that. It's hipster central there. Metal that is "artsy"."intelligen", "profound" and above all super image-oriented and stylish.


Last edited by Civil on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MaelstromMind
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:35 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Kveldulfr wrote:
I don't get how you can't hear the KF/MF elements in Ghost, seriously. Just listen Elizabeth and hear how the singer fails miserably trying to provide King-type vocal lines.


They're nothing alike at all. Except that they both sing about Satanic and evil themes.


C'mon the riffs on Elizabeth have a total Gypsy/Devil Eyes feel to it as well - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaAb421KUhk

I haven't listened to the Ghost album in a while, so maybe it's just that one song.
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:44 am 
 

ralfikk123 wrote:
absurder21 wrote:
Othern then the odd Pentagram-isms, I have no idea why people consider this band doom. They seem like Mercyful Fate meets Witchcraft that then says hello to Pentagram.


Excuse the language, but how the fuck are Ghost like MF?


There are some moments in the music of Opus Eponymous where they just scream Mercyful Fate. For example, the solo in Elizabeth. However, comparing them as a whole to Mercyful Fate doesn't really work as MF aren't Ghost's main musical influence.
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ENKC
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:46 am 
 

I'm amused at the thought of doom having anything like commercial success, Sabbath notwithstanding. Even Candlemass seem to have been barely scraping by for years. I can't imagine how difficult it must be for a newer doom band to earn a crust.
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Weerwolf
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:57 pm 
 

Civil wrote:
Roadburn Festival would be the epitome of that. It's hipster central there. Metal that is "artsy"."intelligen", "profound" and above all super image-oriented and stylish.

This is bullshit. The fact that they are for example booking a band like Mourning Beloveth (hardly the most artsy or profound, let alone image-oriented band out there) and letting them play their second album exclusively shows this. In my experience it's a festival that attracts people because they want to see the bands, does that make them hipsters? I agree with you that the styles of music that are being played at the Roadburn fest are quite popular here, but so is black metal.

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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:23 pm 
 

I don't' see that these rock/metal bands are trying to be particularly artistic or thoughtful. If anything they are attempting to recapture an ancient spirit in this sort of music and I feel that's pretty commendable, and haven't really noticed the excessive saturation that seems to bother some folks. Yeah, the style might be self-consciously retro, but that's ok with me. I've been telling people that old Italian horror and Jess Franco movies rule for years now; it's kind of amusing to see guys my age or younger finally catching on.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:31 pm 
 

This thing does seem to be fairly popular in here but its still quite relative. There are not that many tours happening and its rather closely related to the revival of interest in classic heavy metal. psy, stoner and space rock and bands like pagan altar. I dont think the scene is saturated at all there only quite a few bands that play in this style their popularity just gets overstated online.

Civil wrote:
Big_Grand wrote:
I think the beard metal/ hipster metal scene along with just sludge and doom becoming more popular is bringing the old heavy metal style back in general

Roadburn Festival would be the epitome of that. It's hipster central there. Metal that is "artsy"."intelligen", "profound" and above all super image-oriented and stylish.


You clearly have not been at roadburn. While there are a few hipsters at roadburn there are not many of them there at all.
http://metalshots.com/2011/2011-04-14_R ... index1.php just look at those pics and tell me that by far most of the people are not the same metalheads you see at other gigs?

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693
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:28 pm 
 

I don't see the similarities between Ghost and MF. Ghost sounds like Blue Öyster Cult, with gimmicky 70's horror movie image and lyrics.

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Subrick
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:34 pm 
 

As said, there are moments in the music that are very much MF, but they as a whole are not greatly influenced by MF outside of the Satanic imagery.
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TheUglySoldier
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:54 pm 
 

See, I really love good 70s style occult rock kinda stuff. I'm not that big on Ghost, to be honest (And I worship BoC). Jess and The Ancient Ones, Blood Ceremony, etc are more my cup of tea.

I think doomier bands definitely end up darlings of hipsters at times - the more atmospheric sludge bands have the same kinda following.
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Civil
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:54 pm 
 

Weerwolf wrote:
Civil wrote:
Roadburn Festival would be the epitome of that. It's hipster central there. Metal that is "artsy"."intelligen", "profound" and above all super image-oriented and stylish.

This is bullshit. The fact that they are for example booking a band like Mourning Beloveth (hardly the most artsy or profound, let alone image-oriented band out there) and letting them play their second album exclusively shows this. In my experience it's a festival that attracts people because they want to see the bands, does that make them hipsters? I agree with you that the styles of music that are being played at the Roadburn fest are quite popular here, but so is black metal.


I don't know the band you mentioned, but for sure Roadburn is the Meca of image-oriented, 70s revival, image-obsessed doom/stoner hipsters now. There are crossovers of that scene with all things necro and kvlt, and with the obvious usual suspects of the hipster metal scene, Southern Lord stuff and pseudo-avant garde like Sunn. It is more and more becoming a complete package of an "elite" of super image conscious people who are obsessed with their "doom as fuck" image and kvlt style. It seems to be a scene very connected with heavy drug use as well, from my experience.


Last edited by Civil on Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Civil
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:11 pm 
 

Tomcat, I don't mean "normal" hipsters with neck tattoos, glasses etc. I mean metal hipsters, more of the Mastodon kind of school. Not true metal people but super-image obsessed metalheads who are into all things cool, kvlt and want to seem "occult" and intellectual. It's a new thing. Not your usual hipsterism but a development of hipsterism within metal.

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Terri23
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:24 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
There are some moments in the music of Opus Eponymous where they just scream Mercyful Fate. For example, the solo in Elizabeth. However, comparing them as a whole to Mercyful Fate doesn't really work as MF aren't Ghost's main musical influence.


It clearly doesn't work because strangely enough the two are nothing at all alike.
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androdion
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:32 pm 
 

I'm laughing a lot here...

So "hipsterism" has undergone a stylistic evolution you say? And what are "true metal people" like? They smell and have dirty clothes from all the moshing? I don't know if you're being allegoric or serious. :lol:

Speaking on the matter at hand I seem to notice that a segment of the younger crowd (mainly below 20) have developed a taste for this aesthetic of pseudo-intellectual occult content that meshes with easy going music that is on one hand "rocking" enough to be almost a mainstream thing, while having some metallic leanings and a bit of an overlap with actual metal fans to have some "trueness" to it. I've also noticed that stoner and the more traditional aesthetics of doom have gained a new life, but I blame that on the old school revivalism that's been going on in mostly every metal genre in the past years. However these two separate elements seem to meld together into the phenomenon being described by the OP.
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Civil
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:10 am 
 

androdion wrote:
I'm laughing a lot here...

So "hipsterism" has undergone a stylistic evolution you say? And what are "true metal people" like? They smell and have dirty clothes from all the moshing? I don't know if you're being allegoric or serious. :lol:


All of youth culture goes through stylistic revolutions all the times, the market of youth culture is based upon fashion and clothes, in case you haven't noticed. Metal, Goth, Hipsterism etc are no exception.

"true" metal people are less concerned with the fashion aspect of things, not that the image thing is not important, of course it is, but to the new stoner/doom hipster crowd an artsy, psychedelic and kind of intellectual image is very important. Hence the connections of Roadburn with experimental music, Sunn, drone, etc. Wanna know what "true" metal is? See the audience at the documentary Heavy Metal Parking lot. Far, far from the fashion-oriented, super stylish concious stoners.


Last edited by Civil on Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:27 am 
 

Personally, I welcome the retro trend of the last few years because I think metal has been declining ever since the late 80s.
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Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:29 am 
 

MaelstromMind wrote:

C'mon the riffs on Elizabeth have a total Gypsy/Devil Eyes feel to it as well - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaAb421KUhk

I haven't listened to the Ghost album in a while, so maybe it's just that one song.


The tone and mood are entirely different. MF is urgent and wild, whereas Ghost is chill and laid back. Maybe for some people who only focus on the mechanical stuff, eh, why not, but for me I never saw any similarity.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:36 am 
 

Civil wrote:
All of youth culture goes through stylistic revolutions all the times, the market of youth culture is based upon fashion and clothes, in case you haven't noticed. Metal, Goth, Hipsterism etc are no exception.

"true" metal are less concerned with the fashion aspect of things, not that the image thing is not important, of course it is, but to the new stoner/doom hipster crowd an artsy, psychedelic and kind of intellectual image is very important. Hence the connections of Roadburn with experimental music, Sunn, drone, etc. Wanna know what "true" metal is? See the audience at the documentary Heavy Metal Parking lot. Far, far from the fashion-oriented, super stylish concious stoners.


Well, I can easily spot a crowd going to a "true metal" concert. They all wear the same thing. If they're so easily identifiable, it's because fashion conventions are equally as important to them.
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Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

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