Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Search   * Register   * Login 



Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
kalervon
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:43 pm
Posts: 174
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:21 am 
 

A moderator added a band called Havok from Caledonia, Ontario (Canada) but with almost no info. Ever since, some people have been populating its fields with information taken from an obviously bogus website, whose domain name spoofs the ska band MightyMightyBosstones. The whole website is about a fictitious band from Montréal called Catalysis:
http://www.mightymightybosstones.com/history.html
It is somewhat funny and entertaining, but aside of the obvious jokes, I believe none of the facts reported have any grounds.

1-I don't believe that there was a band called Havok in Montréal in 1991.

2-I don't think that there was a death metal band called Paraplegik in Florida back in 1992.

3-I don't think that "Frozen Over", "Ice-Pik" (later "Treble"), "Boardwalk" and "Rockhill" are or were actual Montréal or Montréal-area studio names.

4-I don't believe that a band named Catalysis in Montréal ever existed

5-I don't believe that the characters in the story have anything to do with real people (obvious pun; Cain and Abel)

Anybody here ever heard of any this ? Because if not, then I think the information pertaining to the line-up in the entry for Havok (Caledonia, ON) should be removed:

http://www.metal-archives.com/report/view/id/406210

but to have confirmation from more people who know the Montréal scene, and better, from people who knew the real Havok from Caledonia ON, would help

Top
 Profile  
Fulgurius
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:51 am
Posts: 1067
Location: Ukraine
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:59 am 
 

Your post alone already contains a lot of misleading information and wrong assumptions. First, I wasn't a mod when the band was submitted. Second, there were no people who "have been populating its fields with information taken from an obviously bogus website". The information that is currently on their page was there from the start, other people have just edited it in correspondence with the new features of v2 of the site. The source of information was indeed the Catalysis bio. Now, your only argument is that you "don't believe it" and "never heard about it". I don't see the reasons for someone to make a site and write such a long bio for a non-existent band, considering that it wasn't made to get the band into MA (and the site isn't even on a free hosting, and wasn't updated since 2003). If you can prove that the songs presented on the site belong to some different band and the people on the photos have nothing to do with the band, or at least can find someone who can confirm that the whole thing was a bogus, then your case may be reconsidered. Otherwise, no need for false assumptions here. There are tons of bands that released demo tapes in the 1990s but aren't mentioned anywhere on the net ouside of our site (and I believe there are still many bands missing from MA), and that doesn't mean that they've never existed.

Top
 Profile  
Riffs
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 am
Posts: 791
Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:07 pm 
 

Fulgurius wrote:
The source of information was indeed the Catalysis bio. Now, your only argument is that you "don't believe it" and "never heard about it". I don't see the reasons for someone to make a site and write such a long bio for a non-existent band


You obviously underestimate the ability of mankind to waste a great amount of time making shit up. Considering there are people rewriting the entire fucking bible according to cats, nothing surprises me anymore.

Fulgurius wrote:
If you can prove that the songs presented on the site belong to some different band and the people on the photos have nothing to do with the band, or at least can find someone who can confirm that the whole thing was a bogus, then your case may be reconsidered. Otherwise, no need for false assumptions here.


With all due respect, you have things backwards.

The burden of proof is completely on people claiming Catalysis actually exists. Not on people doubting the veracity of the information. That's how it works. Otherwise, anyone could make shit up and pass it as science and information and tell everyone "it's up to you to work your ass off and prove what I'm saying is a lie".

The assumption IS to believe Catalysis ever existed based solely on a ridiculous website which pretend-sells Catalysis tanktops for 60 bucks. Everything about this website is fishy, man. Nobody's heard of this band but they have toured the world? They played back to back at the Metropolis and Foufs in Montreal? Faking the CNN logo to write articles on their website? Take a closer look and google the references.

Fulgurius wrote:
There are tons of bands that released demo tapes in the 1990s but aren't mentioned anywhere on the net ouside of our site (and I believe there are still many bands missing from MA), and that doesn't mean that they've never existed.


But that doesn't exempt users from doing their homework and providing correct, verified information before they submit stuff.

Not only am I very much doubting the veracity of the information on this Catalysis website but this makes me look with a very suspicious eye the data entered for Havoc. Maybe someone should try to contact these guys and see what the deal is because they are associated with two bands and one of them is obviously at least being spoofed and possibly fictional. And the other one doesn't have much info to go by either.

How exactly do you know about Havoc? Hopefully you had better sources than what you are willing to accept for Catalysis!
_________________
mjollnir wrote:
Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

Top
 Profile  
Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9023
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:53 pm 
 

I think Riffs is making a good case, however, I want to point out something regarding the burden of proof: it's true that it's up to the submitter to find the evidence, however, once the band is accepted and presumably passed the "test", we aren't going to delete it based on nothing but speculation, so the burden of proof becomes kind of flipped.

That said, the standards of evidence were probably slightly more lax in 2008, so I'm fine with taking a second look at this. And yes, that site looks totally bogus, I mean come on:
Quote:
The Pope's efforts to ban their work has proven futile, as the Court of Dominican Law has rightfully decreed their stand of artistic expression valid.
:lol:
_________________
Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

Top
 Profile  
Derigin
Anthropophagus

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 2277
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:33 pm 
 

Agreed with Morrigan on this. That site seems fishy, and - if this band was to be put into the queue today - I would not accept it based on any information found on that site alone. The thing is, we can't know intent, or know exactly why the band (if there was a band) wrote what they did, or made this site. But because the site is so full of objective inaccuracies (I mean, seriously, the Boston Globe reviewed them? :lol:), no matter if some of the information is factual, we shouldn't accept all the information on the site as being correct. It is never the option to rely on dubious sources for citing acceptability for a band.

What is necessary to move ahead, at this point, is knowing what information was supplied in the submission - or at best guess what could have been provided in the submission - for the band to have been deemed acceptable in the first place. The big question I have is whether the information for judging this band was based on this site alone, or whether there is corroborating evidence out there? Fulgurius, you mentioned in PM earlier today that you found the information on Havoc through a biography section for Catalysis, while scouring tradelists? Was this the site that you used to find that information about Havoc?

Following that, another ideal way to approach this issue might be to try to contact the band members, if they can be contacted, and request confirmation one way or another about the physical existence of their music. We have quite a few Montrealer users, I don't doubt it might take some digging, but it's not impossible.

Top
 Profile  
kalervon
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:43 pm
Posts: 174
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:37 pm 
 

Let us not forget one thing: Havok (Canada) was added in 2008 and then, or at some point in time before April 2011, somone entered their Location as Caledonia, Ontario. The mightymightybosstones.com (bogus) website doesn't say anything about Caledonia.

I'm not challenging the possibility that a band named Havok from Caledonia may have existed. I'm challenging the fact that two guys named Cain and Abel played in it and then formed a band called Catalysis with someone named Seth.

Especially since the infos pertaining to band members' names and their previous/future bands were added since April 2011 by two Europeans and one American who had little chance of knowing these minor Canadian bands, other than through a website which should likely still be around.

Top
 Profile  
Riffs
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 am
Posts: 791
Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:28 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
it's true that it's up to the submitter to find the evidence, however, once the band is accepted and presumably passed the "test", we aren't going to delete it based on nothing but speculation, so the burden of proof becomes kind of flipped.

That said, the standards of evidence were probably slightly more lax in 2008, so I'm fine with taking a second look at this.


Thanks, Morrigan!

I'm pretty sure you guys have Montreal well covered but I live right here so if I can help with any fact-checking, let me know.
_________________
mjollnir wrote:
Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

Top
 Profile  
Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9023
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:52 am 
 

I live in Montreal too. :P But that doesn't mean much, I never heard of this band but then again I probably haven't heard of most of the bands tagged as being from Montreal either...
_________________
Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

Top
 Profile  
Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4519
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:56 pm 
 

It's always interesting to look for bits of truth and figure out what is plausible in situations like this. The seven songs available for download on that page don't seem to be stolen from any notable artist, attempting to auto-tag them doesn't return any matches.

kalervon wrote:
The whole website is about a fictitious band from Montréal called Catalysis:
http://www.mightymightybosstones.com/history.html
It is somewhat funny and entertaining, but aside of the obvious jokes, I believe none of the facts reported have any grounds.


That domain directs to the same thing as this one: http://catalysismusic.com/main.html
If you don't remember, in the 90s a lot of people registered domains of famous/notable things, since a lot of people would just type in name.com, so having the domain name of a notable band could bring your band attention.



The ridiculous biography doesn't mean the band is fake, plenty of bands write ridiculous shit just to get people to pay attention. Parts of their biography match verifiable parts of history too. There's obviously a lot of nonsense and the band exaggerating their popularity (every band did this 10 years ago), but there's some music and a few valid links to people - I would believe it if I was told that the entire website was a joke/satire based on a band that recorded demos and referred to different practice spaces/basements by "studio" names, while their "touring" was greatly exaggerated and other things were overblown.

This part of their bio stood out:
June 1996 - Trent decides to hit the studio with Gus Siewert and fellow industrial headbangers, renowned Nightowls vocalist Danny George and skinsman Germain Herling, to begin the songwriting for their new side project P.R.H. (Patented Remedy for Heartache), after it was reported that Gus's former outfit, Der Zwickau Projekt, had fallen under unfortunate circumstances due to constant lineup changes. The Catalysis European tour scheduled for the summer is delayed indefinitely.

Their domain (both MMBT and catalysismusic.com) are registered to "Gus Siewert", one listed as "Canada" and one listed at 22 Acacia Avenue in the UK ;)

There's a picture on another portion of the site, obviously humor, showing Gus Siewert. http://www.mightymightybosstones.com/MT ... ewelry.htm
I also found some tabs of Entombed songs that he contributed to: http://www.reisegruppe-mollengrab.de/mo ... edevil.tab
http://www.reisegruppe-mollengrab.de/mo ... toride.tab

Quote:
5-I don't believe that the characters in the story have anything to do with real people (obvious pun; Cain and Abel)


Drummer Steven "Seth" is Steve Kennedy of Crash Alley: http://www.metal-archives.com/artists/S ... edy/178770
Just as Steven Seth took that as a nickname, it's much like anyone else taking a nickname.

Derigin wrote:
I mean, seriously, the Boston Globe reviewed them? :lol:


"With remarkable clarity...the author succeeds in presenting the everyday experience of the different band members in a vivid and significant way. His work offers the complexity, brutality, and beauty in Catalysis' volatile nature in both the past and present."--The Boston Globe

"With remarkable clarity, [Kaplan] explains problems that all sides have lived with throughout the long history of the Balkan peninsula . . . Kaplan succeeds in presenting the everyday experience of different Balkan communities in a vivid and significant way. "Balkan Ghosts" offers the complexity, brutality, and beauty in traveling in both the past and the present."--"The Seattle Times"
http://stevensbook.christianpost.com/bi ... n-robert-d



I looked into the Catalysis tour dates for two local venues and here's what I found:

08/23 Hartford, CT Meadows Music Theatre
08/26 New York, NY Irving Plaza

That Hartford show would have been opening for a co-headline of Deftones and Godsmack.
http://www.deftonesworld.com/old-tour-dates-archive/
http://www.angelfire.com/ct2/bootlegs/
http://www.billboard.com/news/deftones- ... 4733.story

However, another artist who seems unlikely to play with a band like this played at Irving Plaza on that date: http://www.africasounds.com/Baaba%20Maal%20gallery.htm


So, what's going on with this "band"? There's music, a contact email for their band shows a guy contributing to Entombed tabs and other stuff if you google his name, and there's a lot of nonsense. I think it's a garage band with a sense of humor.

Top
 Profile  
Derigin
Anthropophagus

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 2277
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:21 pm 
 

I don't doubt that the page was created in jest, but the question isn't whether the website is a comedy band site for a garage band... the question is whether the information on that website is enough to prove that that garage band produced a physical heavy metal album under the name Havok? Can we really trust that website alone for proving that? I mean, beyond the obvious bits of humour, it's clear this band was in the business of embellishing themselves. Might that be true for their history, and for the albums that they allegedly published?

We put a fair bit of weight on a band actually releasing something physically, and we usually ask for a fair amount of information proving that point - whether it's a picture, or a verifiable source, a flyer, or a distro/tradelist offering the item in question, and so on. This website doesn't sufficiently do any of that; it appears to be the creation of a bunch of band mates shitting around and laughing it up. All we have to work on, based on this website alone, is a bunch of jokers who have shown a tendency to describe themselves as something they are not, in a way that's not objectively trustworthy. At this point, we could really use another source to prove the efficacy of their alleged release(s).

EDIT: Keep in mind that this is primarily about Havok, not necessarily Catalysis. It's the former that's on the Archives, not the latter:
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Havok/120889

Top
 Profile  
Goatfangs
Wicker Mantis

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:02 pm
Posts: 2141
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:03 pm 
 

If the website truly hasn't been updated since 2003, the only other Havok that even existed at that time was an Italian black metal band. The notable thrash band from the United States formed in 2004, as did a brutal death metal band from Brazil and death metal band from Germany, while there is a Swedish death metal band that formed in 2005.

There is a way to try and find more information though.

http://wayback.archive.org/web/20010601 ... music.com/

Badabing, badabang... the last capture of the website was in 2005, that doesn't mean it's last update was in 2005 though it seems to be considerably close to 2003.

However, it does have a capture of an old version of Catalysis' history from April 10, 2001:

http://web.archive.org/web/200104101904 ... tory2.html

You need to select everything though to read it, but the text is there. It still mentions Havok.

That doesn't prove Havok actually existed, but the best way to tell for sure is to try and track down the guys in Catalysis and ask for a copy of one of the old Havok EPs.
_________________
And they'll tell you black is really white - The moon is just the sun at night - And when you walk in golden halls - You get to keep the gold that falls - It's Heaven and Hell

7|10|42-RIP-5|16|10

Top
 Profile  
Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4519
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:51 pm 
 

Derigin: I'm looking into it. I'm finding more information about Catalysis outside of their website, I'll post if I find anything significant/substantial regarding their/Havok's status on MA.

Top
 Profile  
kalervon
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:43 pm
Posts: 174
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:41 pm 
 

Right, Catalysis is of indirect importance here as they are not the band whose presence in EM is debated. The fact that they label themselves as industrial metal is probably enough.

I like Zodijackyl's idea of searching for tabs and am impressed with the fact that a book review has been plagiarized. I had already searched the wayback machine and found that the Catalysis website had been around at a time when it was still being updated (2001). I wouldn't bet however that the connection with Sleze Alley is real, nor that they actually played on the tour dates mentioned. This "creative writer" had to use a few pointers from real life. For instance, the Cathouse was a real place in Montréal.

One email address which Gus Siewert uses in his tabs is ktulu@cs.mcgill.ca. McGill is an university in Montréal; at one point, students could create their own handles and have their own webpages about anything on the university domain as long it wasn't porn. A search on the ktulu email address points to a credible university webpage listing his name as Valeriu Sitaru (Romanian or Romanian descent), a math student in 1997. He was a contributor to a Maiden newsgroup in 1994. He also had a webpage (now offline) on the university server on an industrial band called "Painted Remedy for Heartache":
http://web.archive.org/web/199910090653 ... u/prh.html

You can see that it was the same kind of creative writing/funny/hilarious stuff that he would later do with Catalysis:
http://web.archive.org/web/199910082118 ... -hist.html

He talks about Trent Cain working on a side project named Depraved in 1996; a "fact" completely ignored in the Catalysis bio pages (on the Catalysis/MMB domain). Also, according to the PRH website, Catalysis has two releases entitled "Hypocrisy" and "Gnosis"; none of these releases are listed in http://www.mightymightybosstones.com/discography.html. The PRH page doesn't mention anything on Havok, yet mentions Cain and Abel.

The more and more I think we're dealing with someone's evolving body of fantasy work, in which nothing substantial is real. But I'll keep reading and thinking about it.

A man named Valeriu Sitaru co-owns a company named Cressitol Investments; the president is Corneliu Sitaru. Someone could give them a call ? :)

EDIT: Is it possible to have access to whatever was presented as proof that Havok from Caledonia existed in the very first place ? I understand the rules may have been more lax 4 years ago, but if there were any rules at all, then there must be *something*.

Top
 Profile  
Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4519
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:16 am 
 

kalervon: I saw most of that and it leads me to believe that the joke website was part of a computer science project. I found some forums where band members posted (via the domains/emails) and found some more contact info and sent out emails asking about the bands. I did find that identities of band members associated with forum accounts on various forums where they were active for a while and talked about gear and occasionally mentioned the band. I found it odd that another name was associated with that email when Gus Siewert seems to be a real name, but both Gus and Valeriu posted in an Iron Maiden newsgroup going back into the 90s, and I found two older website URLs that don't offer much new archived info other than that the website was updated over time and became a bit more ridiculous - catalysis.ca and http://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~pest/band

Nothing of significance seems to be archived on those pages though, but I found mentions of the band as far back as 1998 and some places where they mentioned that they released an album (just forum posts).

Here's the band's bio circa 1998: http://web.archive.org/web/200111210323 ... story.html
This version is less exaggerated and Havok's "EPs" are referred to demos, which seem to have a bunch of covers and some originals. They also mention using a drum machine, so I'm pretty sure they made up the part about the drummer of a famous band relocating to join them (that guy now makes Christian country music). edit: maybe not. It's funny to sift through information to try to extract any truth possible, much like the internet tended to be back then.

Top
 Profile  
kalervon
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:43 pm
Posts: 174
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:24 am 
 

The ~pest email address belonged to Tony Ruso while the ~ktulu one belonged to Valeria Sitaru. Ruso did his site (to which you gave a link) on Catalysis while Sitaru did his on PRH. Each site was lending credibility to the other. Then both sites were somewhat merged (and modified) to yield the final Catalysis website which is still online to this day.

One difference between histories shown on http://www.mightymightybosstones.com/history90-94.html and the one shown on http://web.archive.org/web/200111210323 ... story.html, is that the former refers to Abel and Cain by their first names; the latter refers to them by their last names. Another difference is the Havok EP/demo names:
Latter (older)-"Merciless Enemies" and "Total Extinction of the Human Race"
Former (more recent)-"Dry" and "Doomsday Clock"
I think this is enough to disprove any information given on Havok's releases (demos/EPs) by either site.

I don't think this was part of a school project; I was a university student at the same time and classes taught as part of the math / computer sciences curriculum were quite more advanced than that sort of thing. I think Sitaru and Ruso played music together and had this proto-band together in their spare time (Catalysis). It was easy for them to have internet access and create websites for the heck of it while learning html. It also seems (especially in the older version) that Ruso was documenting what was going on in his love life through the character of Abel, so this could have been some kind of auto fiction written for cathartic reasons at the same time. Who knows..

I'm sure these guys would laugh it off if they knew that this joke they created some 15 years ago is now causing a few people to scratch their heads. I believe I may have found a phone number for Sitaru, if anyone wants to try it out please send me a PM (though it's all findable online it would be creepy to give it here).


Last edited by kalervon on Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
Riffs
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 am
Posts: 791
Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:18 am 
 

Derigin wrote:
EDIT: Keep in mind that this is primarily about Havok, not necessarily Catalysis. It's the former that's on the Archives, not the latter:
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Havok/120889


That is true.

The question becomes, why is there an entry about Havoc at all? Maybe this was answered previously but was its existence solely "confirmed" based on the Catalysis prank and other joke-websites? Fulgurius is the one who added Havoc to begin with, so he is the one holding the answer to that one and he hasn't said anything.

Which brings me to another point. I believe Fulgurius probably meant well when he entered Havoc in there. But I don't like how he tried to shut down kalervon's report on the 5th of december. This is a report which was obviously raising legitimate concerns and he was ready to discard it without second thoughts! I'm not sure someone should be able to manage a report on their own entries. Thankfully, Derigin saw there was merit there and decided there was reason to explore this further but if he hadn't spotted what was going on, it could have fallen into the cracks.

Wouldn't it be preferable if reports on entries were handled exclusively by a third party which is neutral?
_________________
mjollnir wrote:
Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

Top
 Profile  
kalervon
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:43 pm
Posts: 174
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:50 am 
 

Riffs wrote:
Thankfully, Derigin saw there was merit there and decided there was reason to explore this further but if he hadn't spotted what was going on, it could have fallen into the cracks. ?

Actually it was brought to Derigin's attention after I brought it up in the forum.

Top
 Profile  
Derigin
Anthropophagus

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 2277
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:41 am 
 

This isn't about an inquisition, folks, it's just a fact-finding mission. Keep in mind three facts about the submission: 1) Fulgurius was a regular user at the time, just like anyone else here, 2) Four years is a long time to forget why one might submit something or the proof they used (we did not have tracking at the time), and lastly 3) We don't know who the mod was or why they accepted it. But, at the end of the day none of that matters here. Shit happens. Sometimes mistakes happen. Sometimes bands get added to the Archives that shouldn't have been accepted, and in those cases we review them to make sure that the circumstances for their acceptance were as the should be. If they are not, then we remove 'em. In recent years (since V2 of this site was released in 2011) we've developed tracking to make that process easier, but in V1 (2002-2011) we unfortunately did not have that. So, much of what needs to be done for this band is the backwards tracing of its acceptability; the ability to determine whether the information is correct - if it fulfills those two major points of acceptability: that it's metal and that it was physically released. Now, that's not always so easy; in some cases - when a band predates or exists at the infancy of the Internet - we have to rely on non-Internet sources to find information on those bands. And, in some sad cases, we might never know... though it can be hoped that the truth is out there and can be found someday.

That said, we need to look beyond the question "why was this accepted in the first place," and towards "does this fulfill what we require out of an acceptable submission." The metalness part of it might not be the issue here, but the fact of whether Havok released and distributed anything physically (or at all) - or even existed - is the big question here. The next step would be to reach out to the band themselves.

EDIT: More or less, if it turns out there's nothing to prove that Havok ever existed or that it released and distributed a metal release physically, then we will remove it. Simple as that. But it would be nice to know that we've exhausted all efforts to confirm that is the case... something we try to do for all bands that get submitted.

Top
 Profile  
soul_schizm
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:55 am
Posts: 627
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:21 am 
 

I think this is interesting. I have a question about the band: lets say they turn out to be a joke project, but one that nevertheless yielded music that was published in some form.

Given that Spinal Tap is entered as a band in MA, doesn't that mean this band should also be allowed to stay on the site?

Top
 Profile  
Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 242333 subjects

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
Posts: 8076
Location: Québec
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:26 am 
 

Sure, joke bands with real music are approved, just like any other bands. Lyrical themes are not important.

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ultra_Vomit/17841
_________________
Metantoine's Magickal Realm - New review: Opium Warlords - Taste My Sword of Understanding (2014)
Last.fm

Top
 Profile  
Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4519
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:43 am 
 

soul_schizm wrote:
I think this is interesting. I have a question about the band: lets say they turn out to be a joke project, but one that nevertheless yielded music that was published in some form.

Given that Spinal Tap is entered as a band in MA, doesn't that mean this band should also be allowed to stay on the site?


If they were going to be removed for being a joke, then they would already be gone :P The issue here is whether or not they actually physically released music, since their site doesn't exactly seem credible.

Top
 Profile  
kalervon
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:43 pm
Posts: 174
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:13 pm 
 

Since day one the evidence is screaming that this band is not a joke, it is just NOT a band. Havok that is.

The 4th nail in the coffin is the proof that the so-called demo/EPs released by Havok have different names according to which version of the phony websites you look at.

No proof of physical release = no entry in EM
No audio sample = no proof of metalness = no entry in EM

What else are you waiting for ? Are you hoping that we will discover a myspace for Havok created in 1996 on the internet archive ?(some people here appear to be seriously challenged when it comes to basic notions of chronology)

Or that someone will all of a sudden come up with a photocopy of one of their demos ?

If a mod/op (whatever you like to call yourselves) feels like calling mr. Sitaru at home and make a fool of themselves, be my guest.

Otherwise we (I must thank Zodijackyl for her contribution) have reached the bottom of this.

Keep the Havok entry with Caledonia as city, but remove line-ups, biographical notes mentioning discography and the link to "Catalysis History".

Case closed, move on

Top
 Profile  
Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4519
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:21 pm 
 

kalervon wrote:
Otherwise we (I must thank Zodijackyl for her contribution) have reached the bottom of this.

Case closed, move on


You sure did some thorough research there! :lol:

Top
 Profile  
Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 242333 subjects

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
Posts: 8076
Location: Québec
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:22 pm 
 

Kalervon, you opened the case, it's not for you to say when it should be closed though and we could do without your arrogance.

BTW, Zodi is a dude. (he's 6'9, has a beard and shit)
_________________
Metantoine's Magickal Realm - New review: Opium Warlords - Taste My Sword of Understanding (2014)
Last.fm

Top
 Profile  
kalervon
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:43 pm
Posts: 174
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:37 pm 
 

Who's talking to the last person who posted here ? Someone must have deleted their post.

Top
 Profile  
Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4519
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:13 pm 
 

kalervon wrote:
Who's talking to the last person who posted here ? Someone must have deleted their post.


What? No posts have been deleted in this topic.

Top
 Profile  
Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9023
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:27 am 
 

Indeed, I just checked the logs.
_________________
Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

Top
 Profile  
Derigin
Anthropophagus

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 2277
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:07 am 
 

Wow. Alright, kalervon, I respect your willingness to want to see action on this, but I've made it clear before: We wont remove Havok until we've exhausted all efforts to prove that it doesn't belong.

I'm sorry, but you want us to rely on these less-than-trustworthy webpages because they contradict each other? The same type of webpage that prompted concern about this issue in the first place? You want us to trust that information simply on the basis of what is written on those pages? For someone who picks apart the logic of a person's argument for labeling bands anachronistically, you seem to be more than adamant to push an agenda to get rid of this band with evidence that you've already stated is contradictory, nonfactual and frankly done in jest. Personally, I've already thrown out the usefulness of any of those webpages, because in large part they prove nothing. That said, the only thing outside the immaculate discovery of a cassette on a distro/tradelist, or a review/flyer claiming a CD release, would be to contact the band. I wont assume why or what evidence was used for including the band - because it's lost to history - and who knows... maybe the submission did include a link to a distro out there. I have no idea, hell, even the submitter has admitted to having little to no memory of it. Ultimately, we have to assume that the evidence was valid, in which case, the burden of proof lies on proving that was not the case after all. We're not going to remove a band simply because now - 4 years later - the evidence available online doesn't match up. Do you see why it's best to rely on other, less ambiguous "evidence"?

Top
 Profile  
vulcan plutarchy
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 91
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:47 am 
 

Assuming for a second that the band is fictional, how could one contact them in order to verify this?
_________________
stuff to do in pittsburgh

Top
 Profile  
Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4519
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:07 am 
 

vulcan plutarchy wrote:
Assuming for a second that the band is fictional, how could one contact them in order to verify this?


email :P

I found a bunch of email addresses associated with band members and sent out some emails asking about the bands. People in bands tend to talk about it, and people with web hosting circa 2000 generally hosted images and other things on their own space, so I was able to dig up some contact info.

Top
 Profile  
kalervon
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:43 pm
Posts: 174
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:27 pm 
 

Hi Derigin

It's undescribable how "wrong" this feels, hence my virulent post. I feel like I'm arguing with creationists who would say it's up to scientists to prove that god didn't create the world in 6 days.. just because a text says so, scientists would need to prove the opposite. No; anyone can rule that creationism is wrong, not just scientists. I don't even need to show how evolution works to prove that the Genesis can't be trusted for such a thing. It's wrong because it's based on someone's imagination and the fact that it was put on parchment doesn't confer it any authority. In the meanwhile scientists have proven a lot of things but some creationists still argue that whatever science says will never disprove the Genesis. Harsh analogy... If creationists are blinded by their faith, I believe the counterpart here is a form of groupthink (it's an internet forum after all).

We've proven that the only traces of the band that are currently on-line are spurious and fake. It can also be seen that the entry has two layers of information: one layer (lineup and discography information in additional notes) relying on the phony website, and another initial layer (the band's location) relying on an unknown source.

I don't feel like there is anything else to prove. The burden of the proof, if there was ever one, is now in the camp of whoever still believes the bogus lineup info entered for this band.
Derigin wrote:
I'm sorry, but you want us to rely on these less-than-trustworthy webpages because they contradict each other?
No. Precisely, the fact that these less-than-trustworthy webpages contradict each other is why you shouldn't trust these pages. By wanting to keep "Trent Cain" as band member you are relying on these less-than-trustworthy webpages.
This is the part where I think there is a disconnect between our respective reasonings, and it's a huge gap. It so boggles to mind that I had a hard time convincing myself that this is all earnest; and likewise, you thought I had an axe to grind with this band.
Derigin wrote:
That said, the only thing outside the immaculate discovery of a cassette on a distro/tradelist, or a review/flyer claiming a CD release, would be to contact the band.
Assuming there is a band to contact. Let's say: to contact one of the two 1997 McGill computer science students who were buddies and jammed on Mötörhead with a drum machine. And even if these two buddies had a legitimate release it would have been under the name Catalysis. If you have their email addresses, then please contact them at some point, and maybe you could add Catalysis to the Encyclopedia (granted they are not too industrial; they could sound like Treponem Pal after all). But don't set your hopes too high for these mcgill.ca addresses, they will bounce.
Derigin wrote:
maybe the submission did include a link to a distro out there. I have no idea, hell, even the submitter has admitted to having little to no memory of it.
The submission very likely had something about the band being from Caledon ON, not Montréal QC. Those two cities are like 650 km apart. "Location:Caledon ON" is the only thing about this band that doesn't come from the phony webpages and therefore could be worth keeping. Everything else has been penned by the 2 clowns. That much we have shown, we even have snapshots of their evolving fictional story.
Derigin wrote:
We're not going to remove a band simply because now - 4 years later - the evidence available online doesn't match up. Do you see why it's best to rely on other, less ambiguous "evidence"?
Some information elements are associated to webpages that have been demonstrated to be bogus, and those elements have no reason to remain on the website.

Top
 Profile  
Derigin
Anthropophagus

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 2277
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:01 am 
 

Thing about the scientific method, it's not about debate, or how well you can argue your point of view, or what you assume or guess might be reality - it's about facts. The thing here, unfortunately, is at present the evidence used as facts - one way or another in this case - has been solely based on our assumptions and guesses. At least, that's what we're working with today, I can't presume to know the past. That said, we need facts. We might never get facts, but until there exists facts we wont do dick all.

I, personally at least, follow a principle when it comes to my work on this site: It's better to have outdated info than incorrect info. Usually that implies that the information added to the site be backed up by sources, even if it might seem "logical" or it might be "reasonable" that one's guess or assumption about such info is correct. In a way, that works for the removal of information, also, in that it is better to retain information until or if evidence - valid and sourced evidence - comes along to prove it otherwise. Consider it pedantic, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Top
 Profile  
kalervon
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:43 pm
Posts: 174
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:50 am 
 

I think it's better to have no data than bad data.

Like creationists believe that a text contains facts because they confer divine authority to it ("God wrote it"), I see no difference in the way that you consider that the information on Havok is a fact because it was entered by someone who is now a moderator (argumentum ad verecundiam). Either that, or you still believe that the McGill pranksters tell the truth about Havok (if so which name would you pick for the EPs/demos?). I can't agree on either.

Let's take another approach then. This is the oldest version I can find:
http://web.archive.org/web/200804070426 ... ?id=120889
Back then, origin was simply "Canada" and the line-up info was already there, plus discography, and info on ex-bands. Submitted by Fulgurius (then a Metal freak) from the Ukraine and modified by Watcher (then a Metal Lord) from Czech Republic. Links: Catalysis history (the bogus website). All info posted was found in the said website, which most likely was the only source.

Next available version: http://web.archive.org/web/200903130250 ... ?id=120889
(down for now)..

And then, it's v2.

So I don't know when Caledon (ON) was added as location, but it was the only thing not currently found on the Catalysis website (or previous versions of it) ever entered.

EDIT: actually, with the last v1 version archived by the site itself, v1.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=120889, we can tell that Caledon (ON) was added some time between 2008-04-07 and 2011-03-29. If it is Stormrider (Germany) who added this info, then we should ask him whence he got it.

Top
 Profile  
Derigin
Anthropophagus

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 2277
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:59 am 
 

Oh enough with the logical fallacies, the analogies to Creationism, the accusations about mod favoritism (argumentum ad bullshit), and this inquisition into actions users did years ago with little to no relevance to the here and now. The way you've handled yourself has been borderline insulting, despite the fact we've been showing best faith in responding to your concerns and taking action on them.

A number of posts ago, I stated this:
Derigin wrote:
EDIT: More or less, if it turns out there's nothing to prove that Havok ever existed or that it released and distributed a metal release physically, then we will remove it. Simple as that. But it would be nice to know that we've exhausted all efforts to confirm that is the case... something we try to do for all bands that get submitted.

You know full well that we're in the process of contacting the band, or at least trying to contact the band. If or when we get an answer, I will respond to your report. In the meantime, I'm now finding it a bit redundant to argue with you about the finer points of information I've already told you is no longer relevant to this case. Thread is being closed. Do not open a new thread; please wait for the outcome of our efforts.

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ericfg, Google [Bot], Jimmy Calhoun, kalervon, mark of the devil, Smalley and 16 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group