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Messiah_X
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:38 am
Posts: 759
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:33 am 
 

I've been on the boards here for some time now, and when it comes to NWOBHM, it seems like the general consensus goes along with my belief that NWOBHM was a movement and not a genre. However, on the main site, there are tons of bands listed as NWOBHM, which seems to me that MA recognizes it as a genre in its own right. The movement contained bands that were straightforward heavy metal, but also hard rock, speed metal, AOR, and even some punk-ish bands bordering on the beginnings of thrash. Having listened to tons of NWOBHM bands, I would agree that there are enough similarities to call it a genre for the purpose of describing the sound (although it isn't entirely accurate to call it a genre). However, it is also the policy of MA to exclude some of the "lighter" (debatable) bands from the NWOBHM movement for not being metal.

Now I'm not here necessarily to reopen the case of Praying Mantis, which has been discussed to death. However I think there is a contradictory policy here. If MA recognizes NWOBHM as a genre, then we are excluding several essential bands from that genre, while including some of the "less metal" bands on the grounds they are/were NWOBHM. For example, the aforementioned Praying Mantis is one of the quintessential bands of this movement, even if they are on the lighter side. Big Daisy is another band which has been excluded from the archives. On the other hand we have Goldsmith here, which is a pretty clear-cut hard rock band which was lumped in with the NWOBHM scene based on time and location.

Also, if the NWOBHM genre tag is maintained, how do we determine its definition? As I said, there is a generally consistent sound that many NWOBHM bands share. But when a band like Slander comes out in 1990 with a similar sound, are they really NWOBHM when the timeframe is so far off (I would call NWOBHM 1977-1983, maybe 84)? And if it is ONLY based on sound, then what about bands from other countries that sound almost exactly like that distinct British sound? Surely bands like Randy or Arkangel couldn't be considered NWOBHM because they aren't British? I think MA should re-examine this genre tag and using everyone's best judgment to do one of two things:

1. Eliminate the NWOBHM genre tag completely and rename their genres accordingly. From there we could add something in the additional notes of these bands that "this band was part of the NWOBHM movement" or something along those lines.

2. Keep the genre tag as is and allow all bands considered part of this movement into the archives. Obviously this would be on a case by case study, but with more leniency towards the "less metal" bands that were essential to this important part of metal history. At the same time, bands that came well after the movement ended should not be considered NWOBHM

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9719
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:37 pm 
 

All I have to say is that there were tons of bands that got lumped into the NWOBHM movement that really weren't metal at all, and that's why they are not on the site.
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
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Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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Messiah_X
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:38 am
Posts: 759
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:54 pm 
 

That is essentially my point. NWOBHM is a collection of genres, ranging from various real metal genres to AOR and hard rock. The problem isn't really trying to get any of those bands added to the archives, its a matter of fixing false information on the site. If Metal Archives recognizes NWOBHM as a GENRE, then even the "non-metal" bands (of which this site actually has admitted a few) should be added, as they are part of NWOBHM. On the other hand, if it is classified as a movement by this site, then the genre tag should be eliminated and the bands listed under the NWOBHM genre tag should be changed to their respective genres (ie: Satan would be heavy/speed metal. Tygers of Pan Tang would be heavy metal/hard rock, etc.)

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9719
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:32 pm 
 

Most of those already state their genres as well, and when it's not specified we can assume it means Heavy Metal. I don't see the problem, it's an interesting information (even if it's under "genre" instead of "movement"... who cares?).
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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Messiah_X
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:38 am
Posts: 759
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:39 pm 
 

I suppose it IS useful as a search tool for looking up NWOBHM bands instead of being flooded with every heavy metal band in the world. However, this comes with a lot of redundancies and inaccuracies, so where to draw the line? I won't go into much detail here (I will use the appropriate thread for that), but to list a couple of examples we have:

Satan: NWOBHM, Heavy Metal. Totally redundant. This would read as New Wave of British Heavy Metal/Heavy Metal from England. Even more inaccurate is the fact that they ventured into proto-thrash and speed metal territory which is not listed under their genre tag.

Goldsmith: NWOBHM. This band is NWOBHM by association only, they are essentially hard rock with one metal single. The aforementioned Praying Mantis (albeit not much) has more metal material than that and aren't listed

Shiva: Progressive Rock/Metal. This is a band which was part of the NWOBHM movement, however are listed without that tag. It could also be argued that they are more rock than metal

There are more, these are just a few that I discovered in about 5 minutes of searching

I think the solution would be to make sure all NWOBHM bands are also tagged with their appropriate genre?

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Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 258714 subjects

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
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Location: Québec
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:05 pm 
 

There's 306 bands with the NWOBHM tag, yep, we all want to do that. We won't add "proto thrash" to Satan's page, let's not get silly. If some bands are more rock than metal like you mentioned, we'll look into these. Feel free to link stuff.
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Messiah_X
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:38 am
Posts: 759
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:17 pm 
 

I would do it myself for the sake of accuracy (this is the Encyclopaedia Metallum, we want the information to be as accurate as possible! That should be motivation enough) but Veterans cannot edit genres.

I'm not suggesting proto-thrash should be a genre, but speed metal certainly is.

Anyway, will do. I will post some in the appropriate thread later on. This is a highly debatable (yet monumentally important) part of heavy metal history, and as stated there are many bands which fit hard rock/proto metal more than real metal. Some of these bands are on the archives.

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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4973
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:36 pm 
 

In the context of the encyclopedia, how precise do genres need to be? They are very broad generalizations that give you a vague approximation of what a band sounds like, and while looking through the archives they can help identify which band you're looking for if there are multiple bands with the same name. Can you name a band currently labeled as NWOBHM on the site that, having heard the band, you wouldn't be able to identify based on that genre label? While there is ambiguity to the label as a genre as it overlaps with others, it is also much narrower than "heavy metal" and it can generally be noted by a listener.

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Messiah_X
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:38 am
Posts: 759
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:35 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
In the context of the encyclopedia, how precise do genres need to be? They are very broad generalizations that give you a vague approximation of what a band sounds like, and while looking through the archives they can help identify which band you're looking for if there are multiple bands with the same name. Can you name a band currently labeled as NWOBHM on the site that, having heard the band, you wouldn't be able to identify based on that genre label? While there is ambiguity to the label as a genre as it overlaps with others, it is also much narrower than "heavy metal" and it can generally be noted by a listener.


Here I would have to disagree. On this site, Venom, Tank, Tygers of Pan Tang, Hell, Sanctus, and Goldsmith all carry the NWOBHM label (admittedly, some, such as Venom and Sanctus were properly tagged with their actual genres). All were part of the NWOBHM movement and all sound distinctly different. Furthermore, there are bands left off the archives for being "not metal" but identifying with the movement. At the same time, there are bands which were let into the archives, but are more on the hard rock side. I think if the NWOBHM sound can generally be noted by a listener, then the entire NWOBHM movement would be included here.

For example, based on the criteria on which MA admits bands I find these:

Big Daisy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi7dZr-NjFs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df6yTiH2Vds

Praying Mantis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOzGfcm4Apk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpq652SsTK8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDcj6vIb35s

To be at least the same (if not more metal) as these:

Goldsmith
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmVfvOcaBCQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaPSYdE-IYM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bi7hcdyL5k

Tygers of Pan Tang
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnYWdP8l6LY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Srd-IUxtA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5RaQwEtrgE

Note: I'm not making a case for these specific bands here, just using them as an example.

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