Thanks, Swayze. That plan reads great and helpful - and new (I like new ). Goinng to start right off tomorrow (it's near bed-time here in germany right now).
How would I work on if I would manage to train 4 days a week? Would I split the exercises up like poisonfume into upper a/b, lower a/b?
If it isn't too bothersome could you pin me a 4-day plan?
I'm so pumped on this "idea" that I think I want to try doing so and set other free time activities behind to see if it works.
Btw - never heard about the farmer's walk - is it "just" some form of shoulder press?

Its good to be pumped when you're motivated and enthusiastic about your program you'll get the best gains regardless of split routine.

EDIT: hold on, swayze, your routine looks fishy to me. Are you sure it's a good idea for arms to come right after back and chest day? No matter how well you isolate the main targetted muscle, big compound lifts like bench press are going to hit your arms as well.

It looks really muddled to me. Why not just go with the traditional once-per-week approach? (to group biceps with back, shoulders with lats/traps, triceps with chest and finally legs)

Did the following circuit today. Damn near killed me due to poor cardio and not being used to a humid climate. Heaves is Army parlance for pull-ups/chin-ups/whatever.

(10x heaves, 20x squats, 20x push-ups, 20x lunges, 20x bench dips, 200m run) x2
2min rest
(8x heaves, 16x squats, 16x push-ups, 16x lunges, 16x bench dips, 200m run) x2
2min rest
(6x heaves, 12x squats, 12x push-ups, 12x lunges, 12x bench dips, 200m run) x2
FINISH

Grauer: Which days and times would you work out with four days? With the 3 day plan, it's easy to do Mon-Wed-Fri and not have to worry about fatigue because you're getting around 48 hours of rest between each workout, but before we tweak it for a fourth day, I'd need to know your rest days.

Farmer's Walks are one of the greatest grip (read: forearm) exercises ever. You grab a heavy dumbbell in each hand with a tight grip and, arms hanging at your sides, you go for a walk. Simple as that. The key is to put the weights down as soon as you're not able to hold the weights with a solid grip anymore... Don't wait until you're actually barely able to hold on to them. If you don't feel like you're "crushing the handle" anymore, set is done.



I'd be more worried about deadlifts coming last in the week and after back day than the arms. A bit of fatigue in the arms is okay to be honest, because they're just doing isolation and only two exercises each. Setting it up that way also has to do with rest, as I mentioned above. Notice that grauer said he was doing days 1, 3, and 5, so arms aren't actually coming right after back and chest, because he's getting a full day of rest between the 2nd day and the 3rd. I personally like pairing chest with tris and back with bis, but he's already done that for months and plateaued, so this will surprise his body a bit and he'll grow like a bastard.

I thought about putting the 4 training days in monday, tuesday, thursday & friday. As such I have thw weekends (where I def. get more sleep) for recovery.

Wow, really eye opening. Thank you for this post. There is a lot of ambiguous information on the web praising cardio as the most efficient way of losing weight.

It all relates back to calories. The only way to gain weight is through caloric surplus, and the only way go lose weight is through deficiency (i.e. you burn more calories than you consume). Cardio burns calories, so that is why it is recommended for weight loss. However, you can achieve this through a daily caloric deficiency through diet as well. Cardio is still a much faster method.

Don't ignore it completely. Obviously it isn't required if you want to bulk, but it's great for your overall health. Swayze said "doing a shit ton of cardio". Doing 20 light minutes twice a week, however, won't hurt at all.

So nothing new really, just split it up a bit differently. With four days, it allows you to hit legs twice in the week (on deadlift day, if you wanted more, you could add in some lunges and leg curls, but I left it off). They're not joking when they say the more you hit legs, the bigger you're upper body gets though! So it's worth considering. Day 1 is legs and chest, which is a rare pairing but it works well for you since it allows you to have dedicated back and arms days, and those are important areas for you. Day 2 is back day, and I put calves on there because Day 1 was longer than everything else, so this balances it out well, and you don't need to hit calves on leg day (which is really more of a "core, hips, and thighs day"). Day 3 is deadlifts and shoulders; this is where you could put some lunges and leg curls, or even something for quads like sissy squats or leg extensions, after deadlifts. Notice shrugs are added on the shoulder workout, because there's more time since it's not paired with legs. Finally, day 4 is your dedicated arms day, which again goes at the end of the week because it's not a hugely energy-demanding workout and it's just isolation. Then a nice two days of rest to sleep and eat lots! Looking forward to hearing how much size you put on; 4-8 weeks like this, with lots of food and rest, and I expect you'll be a big lad.

Day 1 - Legs + Chest
Day 2 - Back
Day 3 - Deadlifts + Shoulders
Day 4 - Arms

Day 1 - Legs+Chest

Barbell Squat - 4x6-8 (stick with that for 4-8 weeks, then go to 5x5. By the way, I'm assuming you have perfect or near-perfect form on squats*)
Walking DB Lunge - 3x8 each foot (16 lunges total per set)
Leg Curl - 3x12+ (I like doing "Swiss Ball Leg Curls" lying on my back over machine, but to each his own)
Bench Press - 3x8
Pushups with Feet up on bench - 3x12 (good alternative to incline bench. This is as much a core exercise as chest, so be sure to keep a good plank - do them nice and slow, bodybuilder-style.)
Dips - 3 sets of "one left in the tank" (tilt your body forward to hit chest more. If you're upright you'll hit triceps more)
Core -Low abs - 3 sets of reverse crunches/leg raises, etc.

*Knees staying behind toes, knees staying aligned with ankles and not tracking inwards, able to keep torso from bending forward too much, maintaining neutral spine and curve maintained in lower back

Day 2 - Back+Calves

Wide-ish Overhand-grip Pullup - 3 sets of "one left in the tank"**
Narrow Underhand or Neutral-grip Pullup - 3 sets of "one left in the tank"
Overhand-grip Bent-Over Row - 3x8
Close-grip Cable Row - 3x12
Calf Raise - 3x10 (Standing calf machine if possible, also can do them at Leg Press station or body-weight with one leg at a time using full ROM)
Core - Obliques - 3 sets each side of side planks

**That is, do the exercise with perfect form until you know you're one rep away from knowing your form will degrade and stop there

Day 3 - Rest

Day 4 - Deadlifts+Shoulders

Barbell Deadlift - 4x6 (Again, I'm assuming your deadlift form is bang-on; if it's not, don't go this heavy and work on form)
Seated DB Shoulder Press - 3x8 (not alternating)
DB Lateral Raise - 3x10
Reverse Flye - 3x12
DB Shoulder Shrug - 3x10 (keep shoulders in line with ears, and don't let your head move forward as you shrug as this strains the cervical spine)
Core - Low abs - 3 sets of good form

Day 5 - Arms

Lying Triceps Extension with Barbell (AKA Skullcrushers) - 3x8
Rope Pressdown - 3x12
Barbell Curl - 3x8
DB Hammer Curl - 3x10 (can do alternating DB Curl or Concentration Curls here instead)
DB Farmer's Walk - 3 sets of good grip (go heavy, put the weights down as soon as your grip wanes... Don't let it hang from your fingers)
Core - Plank - 3 sets of plank or plank variations (such as the amazing "Forward Ball Roll", or you could not roll and just do a plank with elbows on a Swiss Ball)

Day 6+7 - Rest

thanks again a big damn lot. I surely will keep you updated on my progress

No prob man! Enjoy



No prob, I love discussing this stuff... and it's taken me years to sift through what's true and what's not. I expect I'll be doing that for the rest of my life



No, that's what I'm saying, calories aren't everything. You have to factor in individual's metabolisms. Imagine a steak has 200 calories. If someone with a fast metabolism eats it, they will convert it to fuel and use it quickly. If someone with a slow metabolism eats it, they will use it as fuel much more slowly, and likely will "store" some of it for later use (as body fat). Same steak, yet some people burn through its 200 calories right away, and others store some excess calories in their body. In other words, there are some people who can eat it and look the same, and others who eat it and get fatter. Furthermore, metabolisms are unique to people. Some people eat that steak and use it an okay source of energy and feel fine. Other people eat it and get sluggish or bloated. It's not random. So what you're saying is true, that caloric deficit causes weight-loss and caloric surplus causes weight-gain, but you need to consider metabolism, because it's the other half to that equation.

EDIT: Just want to add that you're right about cardio being important. I want to stress that in the post where I talked about it not being that important for weight-loss relative to nutrition, I wasn't dismissing it altogether. Cardio is important, and if one hates playing sports, going for a jog or a bike ride or at least walking a lot a few times a week is definitely a good idea.

EDIT2: Replaced doughnut with meat. Doughnut was a terrible example, since everyone eventually gets fat on doughnuts

Rare? Squat+bench+deadlift is pretty much a universal workout combination for powerlifters.

Man, these programs are a mess. No one should be doing that many isolation exercises unless they want muscle imbalances all across their body. That's why you see guys with big fucking biceps and lacking legs. If you don't watch your weights carefully, it will happen.

There are 7 weightlifting exercises worth doing for strength and mass gains: squat, bench, deadlift, overhead press, back row, power clean, power snatch. Mark Rippetoe is an authority on weightlifting and recommends them over anything else save for pullups and tricep dips on parallel bars, and he's not the only one of course. Anyone wishing to do proper weightlifting or struggling with results, check out this website and follow the 5x5 program. You won't regret it.

Haha, it's universal in powerlifting because Squat, Bench, and Deadlift IS powerlifting. That's all there is to a powerlifting competition. It's rare in bodybuilding though, which is what grauer is doing... Not powerlifting. There are also relatively few isolation exercises in the program above (Calf raises, Lateral raise, reverse flye, shoulder shrugs, and then the arms.) The rest are all compound lifts, not including core. Lastly, not everyone wants to be perfectly balanced. I can tell you a few years back when I was at my biggest, I was symmetrical as all hell, and my thighs rubbed together as I walked because they were proportionate to my upper body (read: big). No thanks. I actually like the look of the classic bodybuilders, who had bigger upper bodies than lower. Today's bodybuilders are freakishly large everywhere. 5x5 is great and I've used it many times with great success when looking for strength gains, but it has its place, and it does get a bit boring if its overdone.

These programs are really good, actually, and doing this program for a month is not going to turn anyone into an unbalanced mess. It takes a long time to change the body, and switching things up every 4 weeks allows you to prevent imbalances. At the end of his 4 weeks, grauer can look at his body, and if his arms really are massive and his legs skinny, he can put more legs in the next month and not focus on arms so much. That's how body sculpting works. That said, doing squats, lunges, leg curls, and deadlifts every week, and possibly adding in even more lunges and leg exercises, grauer is not going to end up with chicken legs; I guarantee it.

If we're talking only bodybuilding, then yeah maybe. I don't see why it would be uncommon for any reason, but whatever. Personally I think that lifting weights purely for sculpting your body is all round worthless unless you're looking to compete somewhere or you have some serious dysmorphia.


By muscle imbalance I didn't necessarily mean dysmorphia (kind of threw that in, though it does happens), but rather antagonist muscle strength imbalance, which is completely different and much more serious. You know what I'm talking about. The prime example is when you do heavy isolation exercises for your quads like leg curls, and neglect the hamstrings. Knee problems become inevitable. Replace quad/hamstring with bicep/tricep or any other equivalent muscles, and injuries will happen there. Poor management of isolation exercises leads to exactly that. So, back to your quote: why throw in leg curls, as if heavy squats, lunges and deadlifts in the same day somehow wouldn't be enough? It just seems counterproductive to me. Also, he might not end up with chicken legs, but if he overtrains his muscles on that day then he won't be doing any progress either. I believe this is part of the reason why his progress stalled in his program.


Not everyone though.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/dec/06 ... t-20101206
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kat ... 82678.html

well, though this 5x5 programm also looks interesting to me, I will now work with Swayze's plan and see how I benefit from that. After all, after 4-8 weeks of training it could be time for a new plan again to keep it "fresh" (I realize that doing my plan 6 months was not quite helpful, alas I had no idea that switching exercises can be the key).

Another thing I would like to ask/know is this:
Normally the last thing I eat is a big bowl of fat-reduced curd for a nice 30-40g of protein. However after doing so also for months I slowly start to get annoyed of the taste itself. Any ideas with what I may replace the curd but keep that high-dose of slow-digesting proteins (which I believe are good for the night-time, right?)

grauer: Thanks for giving my program a whirl. I'm genuinely excited to hear about your results.



Yes, agonist-antagonist relationships are important. That said, leg curls are a hamstring exercise. So all he has on leg day is squat (works quads, glutes, and hams, but is generally quad dominant), lunges (works the whole leg again, and can hit glutes and hams more with a long stride and quads more with a short stride), and leg curls (done with swiss ball, hams and glutes). So it's actually not out of whack. If those leg curls were leg extensions though, that's too much quads.

As far as arms, bi's and tri's don't factor in to postural imbalances as wildly as many other muscles (I'm talking mainly about lower cross and upper cross). I'm not saying balance between them isn't important! It is, and this is a really convoluted subject to get into (muscle balance), but there are systems of muscles all over the body that pose a threat if they get out of whack. The key with correcting these isn't just with weight training, but crucially with stretching as well. If the hams, glutes, and low abs are weak, and the quads, hip-flexors, and low back are tight, you'd normally want to focus on stretching quads, hip flexors, and low back and strengthening low abs, glutes, and hams. I mention those because groupings because they're among the most common (that one is called lower cross, or an anterior pelvic tilt - a very common muscle imbalance). That said, you'd still need to workout quads and what not... So it's a longer-term approach.

This all said though, most people have muscle imbalances that need to be corrected before doing exercise. Even if you were to do a basic approach with the exercises you listed, if you're going into it imbalanced, it's not going to alter your imbalances at all, you know what I mean? It would preserve them and there's still a risk of injury. It's such a deep topic to get into though. I really do enjoy discussing this stuff though; thanks all for the ongoing discussion.



Holy shit, man... That must have been hell. Wow

It has been some weeks since I've been feeling pain in my left forearm whenever I do curls, and bench-presses to a lesser degree. Should I be worried?

Started going to the gym on Monday (want to build some muscle). Loving it so far, and I'm attending with a friend of mine who's very knowledgeable about the subject, so I have someone who I can discuss with about the topic and learn how to work with my body. Not to mention that I also started a diet, and so far, I'm sticking just fine to it.

Marag: the thing that arrests my attention is that you feel pain in your forearms when the exercise is stressing other muscle groups more (upper arm muscles). It also depends where you feel the pain (in the muscle belly, the tendon, your elbows) and what kind of pain it is (shooting, throbbing, dull aching etc.) If i would have to guess I wouldn't be surprised if with some rest the problem would resolve by itself. Remember that for physiological changes rest is just as important than exercise.

I feel the pain is around here and here, though it feels more like in the tendon than in the muscle itself. The pain is shooting, and of mild intensity.

I'll be away next week for 9 days, so I'll see if after that I still feel the pain.

Yeah, just rest it for a few days. It might be tendonitis. Discontinuing exercise when pain is present is a must. Working through it is never a good idea. If it's tendonitis, nothing to worry about.

I know a lot of people have cottage cheese before bed. I just drink a casein shake.

I'm about 30 pounds over what I should be/what I used to be (before I started consuming a steady/heavy diet of beer and fast food). I have stopped drinking sodas and beer, and stopped eating fast food, and have dropped about 12 pounds from these lifestyle changes (so I WAS a little over 40 pounds over what I should be). Once I weighed myself, I got the motivation to start working out as well. I'm only on day 4 of working out right now, and I've been doing nothing but cardio.

My question is a basic one, I'm sure: I'd like to gain some muscle and strength, since I have very little, but my main focus is losing this gut. What would be the best way of going about this at this time? Should I just focus on the cardio as I have been, and hold off on lifting until I get closer to the desired weight/appearance, or should I do some lifting in additional to the cardio?

There's nothing wrong with lifting and doing cardio (in my opinion). It usually isn't advised for people that are trying to gain weight and muscle mass, but in your case it should be fine (since you'd be both burning more calories AND gaining strength). You may as well get stronger, it's a total win win. The only issue is whether you feel you have time to do both. Also, a lot of people do their cardio right after a day's weight training, so you may want to pass on heavy leg exercises.

Let's see what swayze thinks too

I used to work out on a simi-regular basis (years ago). I always preferred to do my cardio BEFORE weights, because I felt it was a nice warmup. Over the past 3 days (since I started working out again), I've done just over 2 hours of cardio. I did an hour each of the past two nights, and about 15 minutes the first day (while taking the military's bi-annual fitness test). So if I were to lift weights after cardio, I obviously wouldn't burn myself out doing an hour. I'd probably do about 30 minutes, then lift. My time schedule isn't much of a concern. I'll make time.

Yeah, I think in your case that both cardio and weights is no problem. Good on you for cutting down on the booze and pop. You'll occasionally read that it's a better idea to do cardio after weights, because weights tend to be more demanding in terms of both energy requirements and focus. In this case, you'd warm up with some cardio for 5 min or so, then do weights, then do 20-30 min of cardio after workout. But honestly, if your weight training isn't too demanding, I think it's fine to put cardio before weights. I definitely wouldn't take out weights altogether though. As poisonfume said, you'd be burning through calories through both the cardio and the weights, plus you'd put on some muscle with the weights, and that would speed up your metabolism a bit and make it easier to lose more weight. So yeah, win-win!

Sweet! Thanks to you both!!

urghs, then I stay with curd, I think. I absoluetly hate the texture/consistency of cottage cheese *brrrrrrrr*

Reporting back after a month or two. Still haven't cut down on booze on the weekend but I've continued to steadily lose weight. Floating between 225-230 after starting at 250+ a few months ago. Looking MUCH better and it rules. Ran my fastest mile time the other day too, hoping to get to at least 220 by the end of the year. Could do it faster if I ate and drank clean all 7 days a week but its definitely nice getting results and letting loose from time to time too.

That's great to hear, MazeofTorment!
I think it's a good idea to report progress back here every once in a while, maybe even some progress photos if people are up to it. It really helps with motivation to have other people follow your progress, congratulate and advise you.

Today was a horrible workout for me. I got extreme nausea for some reason and was just sitting down in the middle of the free weight area for about 20 minutes to stop myself from vomiting. Missed my arm isolation exercises and lateral raises and had no appetite for about another two hours after that, so I couldn't refuel. Tried to make up for it by lifting my law books in my dorm... So that bummed me out.

Having your workout interrupted is the worst. There have been a couple times where I was in the middle of doing my cardio, and having to stop and go pee in the middle of it. That's a good way for me to lose my motivation.

Peeing is not so bad. I was on the verge of vomiting all over the weights...and this isn't the first time it happens. I'm pretty sure it's because of dehydration or not eating enough before my workout, but it really screws me up. Surprisingly, no one seemed to give a shit that there was a guy on the floor sweating and holding his face with one hand and his boxers up with the other. Not even an 'are you okay?'

Yeah, that's not good. But once I stop, I lose all motivation to continue.

what? That's pretty bad. Strange "fellow" guys in your gym, I'd say.

So today I went all the way and vomited. This is starting to really bum me out, help me forum!
About an hour before my workout I have 50g of oats with milk and a whey shake. I work out in the morning after I wake up, so I really can't have a larger breakfast. I have been working out this way at least a month and a half now, so I don't see where the nausea is coming from.

I would have thought that I wouldn't have much to vomit, seeing as my breakfast is small and the shake is only 200ml. I wasn't bloated or anything, on the contrary I was kind of thirsty. Turns out I unleashed at least 4 or 5 good mouthfuls of fluid. And it was clear fluid, all water (yellow because of the whey).

I DO drink a lot of water, and I had drunk a lot of water the night before when I was in bed. But would I have not pissed that out in the morning?
I also suspect it may be the whey shake. I have come to hate the banana taste and if anything makes me feel bad down there in the morning, it's having to drink that. But it's only 200ml, and I've been doing this for a while now without experiencing any nausea. So what should I do?

I had extreme nausea only once, and I'm pretty sure it was because of a poor breakfast (banana and some sugary stuff, a few drops of water). Felt extremely sick and almost passed out, but when I drank some water I was alright. After that, I always made sure to eat a big breakfast with plenty of water prior to anything, and if I had to workout then it would be at least 2-3 hours after. It's never happened again.

So yeah, fix your breakfast, ditch the shitty whey and give yourself some time to digest. If that doesn't work, go see a doctor.

I'm almost sure that the breakfast being small isn't the defining factor here. I'll experiment, first by drinking less the night before and by ditching the pre-WO shake. My days are busy and I don't have the luxury of waiting over an hour to digest, nor can I wake up earlier.

phew, sounds not good at all. Maybe it comes from the milk and is some kind of allergic reaction? I do know that allergies based on food can "pop up" anytime, e.g. my wife from one day to the other became allergic to apples (and sorbit, which apples have in them, in general). Only good thing is that those allergies can also go as soon as they came.

I don't know... can one develop lactose intolerance? I'm pretty sure that's not it either.
I am just like your wife though, haha. Out of the blue I started getting allergic reactions to apples and all fruits like them. It's too bad, because I fucking loved apples.

i am no expert in that bu I just googled and found this (of course it's just google and no proven medical statement )

Yeah, you can develop lactose tolerance (or any food allergy) at any point in your life. It's not just a birth thing. That said, this doesn't really sound like lactose intolerance. I'd follow the advice of ditching the cheap whey breakfast. Try waking up, having a glass of water, then 2-3 boiled eggs and some fruit instead. Yeah yeah, it's not as much protein, and you won't really digest it (an issue with early morning workouts, unfortunately), but if you get you through your workout without tossing it's a good alternative. Usually people throwing up at the gym has to do with being low on fuel though... You'll see people get pale and woozy, and 99% of the time they haven't eaten enough that day. I used to make a big shake sometimes if I had to train early (I'd throw in a cup of water, an egg or two, a scoop of whey without any additives, a banana, some nuts, flax seed, cinnamon, sea salt, etc.). It's a fucking meal in and of itself... but I did give myself some time to digest it before training.

Oh yeah, one thing worth trying, try putting a pinch of salt in your shake. If you're low on sodium, you can get dizzy and light-headed and stuff... It has to be kinda severe to cause vomiting I think. But anyway, try a pinch of salt. I suggest unrefined sea salt if you can find it. But normal table salt will do for this experiment