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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9450
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:32 pm 
 

(This issue was briefly discussed in the moderator forum but I think it really belongs here. Below the line is my original post for reference's sake.)

This thread should be used to correct improper capitalization found on the site. But first, we should establish some capitalization guidelines. We already have guidelines for English capitalization from Wikipedia, but what about other languages? And what should be prioritized; how the bands print their titles, or how the rules of grammar work in that language?

Here are my suggestions, but they are open for debate:

  • If the band prints their album and/or song titles all in caps on their cover art and inserts, or all in lowercase, ignore this and use the language's grammar rules of capitalization;
  • If the band uses otherwise "improper" capitalization (perhaps due to ignorance, or simply for aesthetical reasons, such as Fiers et Victorieux here -- proper French capitalization would be "Fiers et victorieux"), leave it as is. (Some mods disagree with me on this, and think proper grammar should always be used regardless of how bands print their titles, so feel free to debate this point.)

Resources: Rules of Capitalization by Language (more might be added later):

This would mean a massive effort to correct tons of incorrectly capitalized albums, I know. But that's what this forum is for, right? :D

_____________________________________________________________________________
Original Mod Forum Post

Got this email today:

Quote:
Several songs and albums (mainly those by Norwegian bands) are incorrectly capitalized on your website. For example the album Det som engang var by Burzum: On Encylopaedia Metallum, it is listed as Det Som Engang Var. Or the track "Over fjell og gjennom torner" off Darkthone's Transilvanian Hunger album, listed as "Over Fjell Og Gjennom Torner." In correct Norwegian, only the first word should be capitalized, as well as any proper nouns, etc. I've noticed this with Italian-language songs as well, such as track 3 off My Dying Bride's album The Dreadful Hours "Le figlie della tempesta," which is written "Le Figlie Della Tempesta." Encylopaedia Metallum strives to be as accurate as possible, and correcting these imperfections would greatly help out the site.
Sly93, user

Norwegian capitalization rules:
http://rateyourmusic.com/wiki/Norwegian ... talization

Italian capitalization rules:
http://rateyourmusic.com/wiki/Italian%20Capitalization


I think he has a good point. We shouldn't use English capitalisation rules for non-English titles. I know that in French, we don't capitalize every word either and as far as I know this is reflected on the site, at least usually. Why not Italian, Norwegian and everything else too?
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:34 pm 
 

Yeah, I should fix some bands like Brume d'automne: http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Bru ... omne/27633
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Halloween
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 10:23 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:39 pm 
 

Could you also fix this: http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Z%C ... 3540351564

I looked up the capitalization rules and worked very carefully at copying the information from the submission to that page (almost everything was capitalized), but I still do not think I did it 100% correctly :(

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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:40 pm 
 

I've addressed this before.

I try to fix German titles, which are tricky because of our needlessly complex capitalisation system, as well as Spanish ones when I see them. Capitalisation rules of the respective languages should of course be consistently reflected on the site, but cleaning up the current "mess" will be a mammoth project. It's a fuzzy, chaotic issue, and most users are not aware of any fixed rules, I suspect.
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Alhadis
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:17 pm 
 

I always wondered about this myself. :confused: I always assumed that was meant to be some weird exception to the rule, because if albums as famous as Burzum's were capitalised incorrectly on MA, somebody would've corrected it by now. :ugh:
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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:09 pm 
 

Alhadis wrote:
I always wondered about this myself. :confused: I always assumed that was meant to be some weird exception to the rule, because if albums as famous as Burzum's were capitalised incorrectly on MA, somebody would've corrected it by now. :ugh:

It's more of a case of no one really caring or knowing it to be an issue at all. I don't think this was ever really discussed here before.
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Cursarion
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:08 am 
 

With Finnish it's also the first word and proper nouns, just like when writing normal text: http://rateyourmusic.com/wiki/Finnish%20Capitalization

The only exception is band names. They generally should be capitalized like everything else, but a common practice is to capitalize the first letter of every word. Though, the best practice is to check how the band itself capitalizes the name and use that.

With album and song titles, titles written in "all lowercase", "ALL UPPERCASE" or "First Letter In Every Word" (or "First Letter in Every Word Except Small Words") are probably just written/printed that way without paying attention or assigning any special significance to the capitalization (for some reason some Finns seem to use the English capitalization rules), so these should be corrected according to the basic rule (First word and proper nouns). If capitalization of a song title seems to differ from the other titles of the album and/or there are cases like "CaPital and lowercase LetTers at apParently RanDom Places" it's probably intentional and the way the band capitalizes should be used. I'd count only these cases as "improper" capitalization as described in the first post, because in the 3 (or 4) cases I presented in earlier in this paragraph the capitalization isn't most likely meaningful in any way. Imo capitalizing Finnish like "Every Word Capitalized" is equivalent to capitalizing words like "a", "in", "of" and "the" in English.

Despite the basic rule is simple (First word and proper nouns), it might not always be exactly obvious. For example, names of places (England vs. Englanti) and people are capitalized, but names of languages (English vs. englanti), nationalities (English vs. englantilainen), months (January vs. tammikuu), weekdays (Monday vs. maanantai) and holidays (Christmas vs. joulu) aren't.

Then there are cases which may be proper nouns depending on context, for example Moonsorrow's "Aurinko ja kuu". Just as in English "Aurinko" means the Sun (as in the name of the star closest to us), but "aurinko" means a sun (as in a star, especially in context of a solar system). Similarly, "Kuu" means the Moon (as in Earth's moon), but "kuu" means a moon (as in a celestial body orbiting a planet). The band actually seems to write the name as "Aurinko ja kuu" instead of "Aurinko ja Kuu" which would change the meaning from "The Sun and the Moon" to "Sun and Moon". However, I think they just haven't paid attention to the exact capitalization and its meaning because the official translation of the title is "The Sun and the Moon". Then again, in the official translation of the lyrics it's "The sun and the moon/Lit so far from where (etc)" which could mean they just didn't bother to capitalize them there, or they mean some other sun and moon, simply referred to with a definite article (the). But since the band's lyrical themes aren't exactly astronomical I'd assume they mean the Sun and the Moon. And since they don't seem to pay much attention to the capitalization ("Nälkä, väsymys ja epätoivo" vs. "Kuolleiden Maa" and "All Words Capitalized" practice of V: Hävitetty vs. "First word capitalized" practice of the first three albums) I'd capitalize the title as they (seem to) mean it - "Aurinko ja Kuu".

Additionally, considering that titles are written like a normal sentence, the first word after characters ".", "?" and "!" should be capitalized. Generally, no special capitalization is used with parentheses, however capitalization of the first word in the parentheses is sometimes used if the part of the title in the parentheses isn't directly connected to the other part, and the title wouldn't make any sense as a whole if the parentheses were removed - ie., the title is made of two clearly separate parts (often title and subtitle). Same with cases where dashes are used as similar punctuation (" - ", with spaces before and after), and practically all uses of colon (":"). Examples include common compilation/live album naming schemes like "Catch the Rainbow - The Anthology", "The Best: The Ultimate in Heavy Metal" and "Raid the Country Star (Live in Padova, Italy 3/18/09)" (same idea applies in Finnish).

(My main sources are RYM and Jukka Korpela's guide on modern Finnish grammar, chapters 4.4 and 6.2. I didn't find explicit answers to all of the cases of the last paragraph so some of them are more or less sophisticated guesses based on widespread practices)
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Obscurum
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:14 am 
 

So should I report improper capitalization on any albums/songs I encounter or should I wait for the mods to further agree upon factoring in the artist-in-question's preferred capitalization? For the most part, artists generally correctly capitalize the words in their songs/albums, except for the occasional incorrect capitalization of prepositions (well, at least in the English language). From my experience many of the mistakes occur due to the error of the record labels, who especially in the case of worldwide, large labels, aren't familiar with correct language capitalization rules, and capitalize songs, etc., by their English equivalents (pretty much every word in a title except for prepositions). My opinions are that in cases where the letters of a song, for example, are written in a combination of upper- and lowercase, then that should be the correct capitalization for that particular song, as they are more than likely intentional. In cases where all the letters of a title are in upper- or lowercase only, then correct written capitalization rules (for that particular language) should be used. Regardless, lyrics, etc., are a form of prose, and, thus, have no correct form, as with any form of poetry, save for haiku and the like.

I would just like to see everything as-perfect as can be here on MA, and would like to do my best to help, which in this case is improper capitalization of foreign-language titles.
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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:44 am 
 

You can report them, sure. Although given the prevalence of incorrect capitalisation in the database at this point it might be better to collect everything you find and make a post here. Whether or not some of those are special, intentional cases where the capitalisation should be preserved can then be dealt with case-by-case. 95% of all instances are probably just sloppy formatting, though.

Your enthusiasm is appreciated, thanks.
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Eazu
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:06 am 
 

I have a question. Does MA allow stylised band name?

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HouseSpiders
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:15 am 
 

No, they don't.
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Alhadis
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:22 am 
 

HouseSpiders wrote:

This. ^

There are a very few select cases where there's non-standard capitalisation used for English band names (e.g., DevilDriver), but these are the exception rather than the norm.
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And you says that metal is about the riffs, that is bollocks, cause then black and death bands wouldn't get accepted, cause the play termolo-riffs.

they payl termolo! not real riff!

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Eazu
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:04 am
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:42 am 
 

So, if I happen to come across a band with stylised name, should I post it here so the mods could have a look at it? Or should I just use the "report an error" button?

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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:53 am 
 

Fine either way, but I guess it would make more sense posting it here, for logging purposes and higher visibility.
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Eazu
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:02 pm 
 

Azmodes wrote:
Fine either way, but I guess it would make more sense posting it here, for logging purposes and higher visibility.

Okay. Thanks. I'm going to start by asking about this 2 bands here:
haarp
SuidAkaA

Additional entry:
ANA-SPY'Z (Ana-Spy'z would be appropriate, but I'll let the mods decide)
ChthoniC 閃靈

Album title:
Asriel's XANADU (Including some of the tracklist)


Last edited by Eazu on Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:15 pm 
 

Took care of those two.
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Obscurum
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:32 am 
 

Alright, expect to see possibly one hundred reports in the next hour or so, so no one accuse me of point-whoring.
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Obscurum
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:30 am 
 

Alright, so far I have reported all the Burzum mistakes, except for the following albums which are written in Old Norse, which is a bit different from Norwegian, and I don't know the rules, so... any takers?

"Dauði Baldrs"
"Hliðskjálf"
"Umskiptar"
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Obscurum
Emperor of the Shadows

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:54 am 
 

Oh, and while I'm at it, should I report any and all improper capitalization for even English that I encounter? Most of the time, it's simply uppercase prepositions and articles.
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MalignantThrone
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:57 am 
 

Sly93 wrote:
Oh, and while I'm at it, should I report any and all improper capitalization for even English that I encounter? Most of the time, it's simply uppercase prepositions and articles.

Go ahead, yeah. I fix this sort of stuff whenever I see it.
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Obscurum
Emperor of the Shadows

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:05 am 
 

Alhadis wrote:
There are a very few select cases where there's non-standard capitalisation used for English band names (e.g., DevilDriver), but these are the exception rather than the norm.


HammerFall being another exception. Depends if the band's name is stylized or if it's just correctly named with incorrect capitalization.
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Obscurum
Emperor of the Shadows

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:48 am 
 

MalignantThrone wrote:
Sly93 wrote:
Oh, and while I'm at it, should I report any and all improper capitalization for even English that I encounter? Most of the time, it's simply uppercase prepositions and articles.

Go ahead, yeah. I fix this sort of stuff whenever I see it.


I get the feeling that if I report a bunch of trivial capitalization errors, I'm going to be labeled a point-whore...
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Alhadis
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:08 am 
 

Sly93 wrote:
I get the feeling that if I report a bunch of trivial capitalization errors, I'm going to be labeled a point-whore...

It's fine, dude. :p If the stuff you report is REALLY too trivial, we simply won't award you a point for it. ;)
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And you says that metal is about the riffs, that is bollocks, cause then black and death bands wouldn't get accepted, cause the play termolo-riffs.

they payl termolo! not real riff!

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Obscurum
Emperor of the Shadows

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:21 am 
 

Alrighty... Ha ha. Just don't take any away from me. :D
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Eazu
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:58 pm 
 

Can someone fix the tracklist on Skywings' Grace Grade?

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Obscurum
Emperor of the Shadows

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:01 pm 
 

For Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish, the only rules I could find regarding capitalization are proper nouns and the first word of a title. This leaves me to wonder about words enclosed within parentheses, as well as words following hyphens; from what I gathered, they are not to be capitalized. I suppose they aren't considered independent enough (or whatever the correct word would be to describe this) to deserve capitalization. As an example for each of my concerns: the Dimmu Borgir track "Guds fortapelse - åpenbaring av dommedag" (from Stormblåst) and the Arcturus track "Naar kulda tar (frostnettenes prolog)" (from Aspera Hiems Symfonia). Are they correctly capitalized in this manner?
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Porman
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:21 pm 
 

Yes, they are.
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Obscurum
Emperor of the Shadows

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:53 pm 
 

Porman wrote:
Yes, they are.


Well, I suppose that answers that.
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Eazu
Mallcore Kid

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:58 am 
 

Does anybody here know if Behemoth's Chwała Mordercom Wojciecha (997-1997 Dziesięć Wieków Hańby) is properly capitalized?

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HouseSpiders
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:16 am 
 

It looks alright to me.
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Obscurum
Emperor of the Shadows

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:29 am 
 

Anyone speak Portuguese and want to fix this? (Portuguese follows the same basic structure as English, unlike the other Romance languages...)

http://www.metal-archives.com/albums/Be ... saio/33673
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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:17 am 
 

Sly93 wrote:
Anyone speak Portuguese and want to fix this? (Portuguese follows the same basic structure as English, unlike the other Romance languages...)

http://www.metal-archives.com/albums/Be ... saio/33673

Should be correct now.
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Emperor of the Shadows

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:43 am 
 

Azmodes wrote:

Should be correct now.


Thumbs up.
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Snow Listener
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:29 pm 
 

НапролоМ
Should be changed to: Напролом

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Obscurum
Emperor of the Shadows

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:39 am 
 

Some more Portuguese ... Of the Romance languages, this being the only one I don't "trust" myself with, so-to-speak ...

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Nor ... lada/64558
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:14 pm 
 

How should we capitalize Latin? Pretty much the only information I could find is on MusicBrainz and they say to capitalize Latin titles in the same manner as they are presented on the booklet, etc., or, in cases such as all-caps, to use the same rules as Italian.
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MorbidEngel
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:44 pm 
 

Can someone with an understanding in Ukrainian/Russian go through the following? I can't fix them myself.

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Kroda/35759
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/%D0 ... D1%8C/4394
http://www.metal-archives.com/albums/No ... %29/257430
http://www.metal-archives.com/albums/No ... %B5/303318
http://www.metal-archives.com/albums/No ... D1%8C/1648
http://www.metal-archives.com/albums/Lu ... 0%B0/52116 (album title)
http://www.metal-archives.com/albums/Lu ... m%29/36865
http://www.metal-archives.com/albums/Lu ... y%29/18758
http://www.metal-archives.com/albums/Lu ... !%29/19225 (only 1 or 2 songs)
http://www.metal-archives.com/albums/Lu ... .%29/22854 Track 3
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/%D0 ... 0%B0/26171

I don't have the clearance to fix these, but from what I understand, titles in Russian only have the first word capitalized (the same might apply for Ukrainian, but I can't find anything on it). I figured posting here would be better than making a report on all of this, as to not spam them and because I'm not 100% sure I'd be correct, but they very well could be.
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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:05 am 
 

Sly93 wrote:
How should we capitalize Latin? Pretty much the only information I could find is on MusicBrainz and they say to capitalize Latin titles in the same manner as they are presented on the booklet, etc., or, in cases such as all-caps, to use the same rules as Italian.

I have no idea, to be honest, but I'd lean towards not capitalizing anything except the first word and proper nouns and sticking with that approach.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:41 pm 
 

Azmodes wrote:
I have no idea, to be honest, but I'd lean towards not capitalizing anything except the first word and proper nouns and sticking with that approach.


That would even include Mayhem's De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas ... De mysteriis dom Sathanas ... If we capitalize it as such, this would probably be the only site on the entire Web to be do so. Dare to be different? But, alright, I'll go with Italian's rules.
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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:51 pm 
 

True, that may be bit drastic. Let's stick with MusicBrainz' take on it, then. It looks reasonable enough.
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