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Goatfangs
Wicker Mantis

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:02 pm
Posts: 2142
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:04 pm 
 

Islam isn't really a threat to freedom, at least for Americans. Some may argue that the 9/11 attacks was an indirect assault on freedom, because it resulted in the TSA being more uptight and strip searching old ladies, the Patriot Act being passed and so on. However, Islam is growing fast and may overtake Christianity as the biggest religious group in the future. With this growth comes power, and with power comes opposition to power, so this may be why there seem to be more anti-Islam bands. Look at how batshit crazy everyone got over the South Park episodes.

Christianity is more of a threat to freedom, and historically has always been the most violent of the Abrahamic faiths. The real danger is power getting in the hands of conservative Christians who want to make Christianity the state religion. Even then, that danger is small - even if areas of America have large numbers of these cunts. Overall, their power is declining (not fast enough, in my opinion) and the danger lessens each year.

I never understood why Jews have been targeted. Their worldwide numbers are much lower compared to Christianity and Islam, and extremists aren't as common. They don't eat babies or control everything and they are not some reptilian alien Illuminati.
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The Prophet Muhammad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:46 am
Posts: 87
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:13 pm 
 

Targetting Islam = picking on the easiest target? Please do go on.. That sounds like a serious crock of shit to me. I pick on Islam because it is a delusional, backwards way of thinking and I enjoy taking the piss out of it. It is the only Abrahamic religion left relatively untouched by metal, so I don't see how it is the easiest target at all. The easiest target would be the one whose image and beliefs have been desecrated by metal bands for the last 2 decades. Wonder which one that is.

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John_Sunlight
Comrade!

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4569
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:33 pm 
 

Why anyone would want to insult Islam is beyond me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-GOHa5-YQ
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soul_schizm
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:55 am
Posts: 627
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:52 pm 
 

As with most things, the World is consistently wonderful.

It's the people that tend to suck.

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MetalArmy666
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:40 pm
Posts: 47
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:08 pm 
 

Let's try to steer this back on topic so we the thread doesn't get locked.

Anti-Islam sentiments in metal.

Do you think that being anti-Islam will present the same problems as a band who is NS? Isn't it much more closely tied together than just being anti-religion or anti-Christianity?

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Twisted_Psychology
Veteran

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 2853
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:55 pm 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
Hell, it's rare enough that bands sing about the wonderful religion of Mohammed at all in any negative light.


It's rarer to see any bands sing about it positively...
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soul_schizm
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:55 am
Posts: 627
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:33 pm 
 

MetalArmy666 wrote:
Let's try to steer this back on topic so we the thread doesn't get locked.

Anti-Islam sentiments in metal.

Do you think that being anti-Islam will present the same problems as a band who is NS? Isn't it much more closely tied together than just being anti-religion or anti-Christianity?


No. Because being against a religion is not in any way the same thing as being a racist.

NOW they can lock the thread :)

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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7741
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:30 am 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
When people are talking about adjustments made for islamic extremists im calling bullshit.
This has not happened at all as far as i am aware. I have however seen serious talk about specifically limiting immigration from predominately islamic countries. Burqa's have been banned in France and the netherlands. Luckily the peak of the frankly retarded anti islam trend seems to have passed in the netherlands at least. Now populist parties are going back to the good olde eurocritic ramblings.

Still im afraid that with the uncertainties of the economic future in europe and the US that we will get a new extremist movement which will get in power and start getting genocidal. Just when i thought the christian west finally catched up and overtook islamic countries in treating minorities.

(minor note im saying christian west because i believe the islamic world has been a fundamental part of the western world)

You do know there's more to the West than the parts of Europe you have personally seen?

In Britain they have allowed the establishment of sharia courts, for example. This is something that most definitely should not be allowed.
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The Prophet Muhammad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:46 am
Posts: 87
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:04 am 
 

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
You do know there's more to the West than the parts of Europe you have personally seen?

In Britain they have allowed the establishment of sharia courts, for example. This is something that most definitely should not be allowed.


^^Seriously. Islam should not be allowed to get its foot in the door. I see new Islamic centres popping up all over town, ads on public transit , people handing out these wretched pamphlets, demonstrations, women covered head to toe... These are not the principles that Western culture is based on. I consider it true weakness to be so passive about an issue like this. It will be interesting to watch, I suppose.

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BaloroftheEvilEye
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
Posts: 1623
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:45 am 
 

Well, it's in the nature of most religions to spread like a cancer. It's not much different to Christianity, especially how that came into being in Europe-spreading to Rome and eventually forcing it's way into every part of society there, and from there it continued spreading to the rest Europe. Islam could well repeat this, until it's usurped by another "one true religion" centuries from now. Although I think that's an extremely pessimistic possibility. A good friend of mine that despises the religion was telling me that he was surprised by how many Middle Eastern immigrants have all but dropped the religion in everything apart from name, which also mimics the majority of Christians, so there's hope yet.

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Verd
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:37 pm
Posts: 38
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:49 am 
 

Carpathianchrist wrote:
By the way, most of the Middle Eastern Anti Islamic bands are probably fake

Extremely true. Probably some of them do exist, but many others are totally fake, and you won't find any information about them 'cos they are, as I said, fake.

On the other hand, I do not see any similarity between nazi bands and anti-islamic bands, even if they are European or American bands which claim to be Middle-Eastern. Probably nazi bands are more similar to islamic fundamentalists, at some extent.

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Verd
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:37 pm
Posts: 38
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:53 am 
 

The Prophet Muhammad wrote:
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
You do know there's more to the West than the parts of Europe you have personally seen?

In Britain they have allowed the establishment of sharia courts, for example. This is something that most definitely should not be allowed.


^^Seriously. Islam should not be allowed to get its foot in the door. I see new Islamic centres popping up all over town, ads on public transit , people handing out these wretched pamphlets, demonstrations, women covered head to toe... These are not the principles that Western culture is based on. I consider it true weakness to be so passive about an issue like this. It will be interesting to watch, I suppose.

Take into account that in my town, Northern Italy, Arab immigrants are (2011 data) the 51% of the population of our historical (born Celtic, then Roman, Longobard etc.) city centre. We did not suffer from the Saracen invasions back in the Middle Ages here in the North, so probably they are taking their revenge :lol:.

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BaloroftheEvilEye
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
Posts: 1623
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:04 am 
 

Interesting you should mention that, Hitler was very outspoken about his admiration of Islam. According to Speer (I think), he believed Christianity was essentially too peaceful in comparison to Islam which which he saw as a far more suitable companion to fascism.
How many NSBM bands are aware of that little bit of trivia?

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John_Sunlight
Comrade!

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4569
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:38 am 
 

Most, I suspect. It's irrelevant to them being anti-arab or anti-islam because Hitler was speaking about what he identified as very specific attributes of Islam he approved of within a very specific context. NSBMers likely agree with his analysis.

These "Gotcha!" factoids pretty much never bowl over ideological opponents like you want them to. Never rely on them.
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dystopia4
Veteran

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:47 pm
Posts: 3381
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:11 am 
 

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
In Britain they have allowed the establishment of sharia courts, for example. This is something that most definitely should not be allowed.


In Ontario they were in the process of setting up Sharia law courts for family-related civil law cases. This sparked a lot of outrage and even street protests as people felt it would discriminate against women. In order to stop it from happening, the premier ruled that faith based (they were already running for other faiths) were no longer allowed.

As for anti-Islam in metal being the same NSBM, of course it's not. Hating a religion is not the same thing as hating a race. The things people do in the name of religion/the influence religion has on society is something people have every right to criticize. If being against Islam made a black metal band NSBM, then by the same logic being anti-christian would be NSBM. I think a lot of people equate being anti-Islam as racist because it's largely foreign to the mainstream of our society and when people say Muslim many people automatically think Arab, so therefore I think some people subconsciously equate being anti-Islam with being anti-Arab.
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Carpathianchrist
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:34 pm
Posts: 387
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:20 pm 
 

British born Muslims should know better.

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tomcat_ha
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 2498
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:51 pm 
 

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
tomcat_ha wrote:

You do know there's more to the West than the parts of Europe you have personally seen?

In Britain they have allowed the establishment of sharia courts, for example. This is something that most definitely should not be allowed.


i just quickly looked that up as i wasnt aware of any such movement. Apparently its comparable with jewish Beth Din courts which have been unofficial but still used courts for about a century. It does not hold any real power.This all implies that there is no central official sharia court in the UK.Unofficial uncentralised systems have a tendency to be a bit too "flexible" and a non secular code of laws is clearly not something that belongs in the world today. I do believe these courts should be removed including the jewish courts. Either all can have these courts or none at all.

An important note on Sharia. There is no single version of the Sharia. Every country claiming to have the Sharia as system of law has a different version of it. In fact there have been notable changed relatively soon after the death of Mohammed which made it somewhat less progressive.(remember the islamic system of law was extremely ahead of its time) Some have argued that the system Turkey has today is a closer match to the original sharia than what is common today.

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BaloroftheEvilEye
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
Posts: 1623
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:49 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
Most, I suspect. It's irrelevant to them being anti-arab or anti-islam because Hitler was speaking about what he identified as very specific attributes of Islam he approved of within a very specific context. NSBMers likely agree with his analysis.

These "Gotcha!" factoids pretty much never bowl over ideological opponents like you want them to. Never rely on them.


NSBMers (edit: I mean an NSBM band that openly/specifically opposes Islam) agree that Islam is worthy religion to follow? I can't see that in any way, not that I expect that revelation to have any effect on pro-fascists, but it's an interesting hypocrisy for any theoretical anti - Islamic neo-nazi band to have, not there are many to examine, at least as far as I know.

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John_Sunlight
Comrade!

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4569
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:56 pm 
 

No, they don't agree that Islam should be followed. Neither did Hitler. I said "NSBMers likely agree with his analysis" regarding "very specific attributes of Islam he approved of within a very specific context". Please comprehend before responding.
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TheUglySoldier
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 3:44 am
Posts: 1655
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:09 pm 
 

Unfortunately, like Judaism, Islam is wrongly identified as a race and not simply a creed. I know that definitely here, anti-Islam or anti-Judaism lyrics will be met with more venom than anti-Christian lyrics. At the same time, it is laughable how wrong a lot of people are about Islam - the whole burqua and shawl/head scarf fiasco, for instance.

I suppose an NSBM band could have anti-Islam themes in their music, but anti-Islam themes don't equate to National Socialist or Racist ideologies.
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The Prophet Muhammad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:46 am
Posts: 87
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:19 pm 
 

Great. Everybody agrees.

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John_Sunlight
Comrade!

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4569
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:21 pm 
 

What do you want? The principle is simple, though in practice obviously it's more nuanced and has to be understood in context. Westerners going on and on about the evils of islam is a pretty big red flag that they are probably racist.
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The Prophet Muhammad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:46 am
Posts: 87
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:24 pm 
 

Or that they have done more than a sliver of research about Islam and don't want any part of it.

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John_Sunlight
Comrade!

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4569
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:28 pm 
 

Sure, sure. Keep on keepin' on there buckeroo.
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soul_schizm
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:55 am
Posts: 627
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:20 am 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
Interesting you should mention that, Hitler was very outspoken about his admiration of Islam. According to Speer (I think), he believed Christianity was essentially too peaceful in comparison to Islam which which he saw as a far more suitable companion to fascism.
How many NSBM bands are aware of that little bit of trivia?


Hitler was outspoken on a lot of things. What was the result? Millions of dead, and a devastated country along with untold collateral damage.

His beliefs & opinions might make an interesting historical study, but not much more.

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ravagingthemassacred
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:30 am
Posts: 160
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:58 am 
 

Of course not. Would you equate anti-Christian metal with NSBM? Are you aware of what NSBM is?

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Veracs
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:56 pm
Posts: 1893
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:55 am 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
What do you want? The principle is simple, though in practice obviously it's more nuanced and has to be understood in context. Westerners going on and on about the evils of islam is a pretty big red flag that they are probably racist.


Or just concerned that the worst aspects of the religion pose a slightly more than probable threat to various freedoms we possess? Great work with your strawmen there Sunlight.
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joppek
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:36 am
Posts: 773
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:32 am 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
What do you want? The principle is simple, though in practice obviously it's more nuanced and has to be understood in context. Westerners going on and on about the evils of islam is a pretty big red flag that they are probably racist.


if i hate christianity i'm an atheist; if i hate any other religion i'm a racist?
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TheUglySoldier
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 3:44 am
Posts: 1655
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:56 am 
 

Perhaps Sunlight is speaking more along the lines of an association - for someone to dislike Islam doesn't make them a racist, but by association, the same bogans/rednecks to be screaming about how disgusting Muslims are is, quite possibly a racist. The whole "The burqua is taking away the women's rights!" argument isn't much more developed than most things I hear from racists about how much they hate black people, anyway.
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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7741
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:03 am 
 

It's still wrong to conflate the two different things. Sure, a lot of Islam critics are racist, but I've seen just as many perfectly reasonable critics of Islam being attacked as racists, bigots, "Islamophobes" and all that. I hate to pull this much-abused term out, but "political correctness" is really the only word for it, sometimes.
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matras
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:01 am
Posts: 864
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:10 am 
 

joppek wrote:
if i hate christianity i'm an atheist; if i hate any other religion i'm a racist?


:scratch: No? Hating Christianity does not make you an atheist.

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Carpathianchrist
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:34 pm
Posts: 387
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:17 am 
 

matras wrote:
joppek wrote:
if i hate christianity i'm an atheist; if i hate any other religion i'm a racist?

:scratch: No? Hating Christianity does not make you an atheist.


That's how everyone seems to look at you.

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TheUglySoldier
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 3:44 am
Posts: 1655
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:23 am 
 

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
It's still wrong to conflate the two different things. Sure, a lot of Islam critics are racist, but I've seen just as many perfectly reasonable critics of Islam being attacked as racists, bigots, "Islamophobes" and all that. I hate to pull this much-abused term out, but "political correctness" is really the only word for it, sometimes.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should generalise like that, just trying to figure out what Sunlight means - I myself certainly wouldn't want to be referred to as racist for disliking religion.
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inhumanist
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Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
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Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:07 am 
 

Where I live the people constantly criticizing islam are either atheists who think that religion is amoral (how ironic), right wing extremists or conservative christians. The ones who defend islam are usually muslims and maybe some people from the far left spectrum that no one listens to. I simply don't see any of those "liberal" and "political correct" strawmen some love to point at in such discussions having any actual impact in the real world. But maybe it's different everywhere else, I don't know.
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TheUglySoldier
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 3:44 am
Posts: 1655
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:17 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Where I live the people constantly criticizing islam are either atheists who think that religion is amoral (how ironic), right wing extremists or conservative christians. The ones who defend islam are usually muslims and maybe some people from the far left spectrum that no one listens to. I simply don't see any of those "liberal" and "political correct" strawmen some love to point at in such discussions having any actual impact in the real world. But maybe it's different everywhere else, I don't know.


I've noticed here that Islam is pretty well accepted, however I'm surprised when I find it not to be from some people - it could just be that I've grown up knowing Muslims, so it was never an issue for me, and I'm just oblivious to those who it is one for.
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matras
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:01 am
Posts: 864
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:05 am 
 

Carpathianchrist wrote:
That's how everyone seems to look at you.


Who's "everyone"? Because that sounds like a bucket-load of persecution-syndrome.

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the_empyreal_lexicon
Captured in Eternity's Eye

Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:54 pm
Posts: 229
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:51 am 
 

Taake had a shirt in the lat few years with anti-islam on the back. Takes some balls given the current political climate and wars in the east.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:19 am 
 

the_empyreal_lexicon wrote:
Taake had a shirt in the lat few years with anti-islam on the back. Takes some balls given the current political climate and wars in the east.

Why? Even if the public gave a shit about BM it wouldn't have any serious consequences for him.
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BaloroftheEvilEye
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
Posts: 1623
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:24 am 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
No, they don't agree that Islam should be followed. Neither did Hitler. I said "NSBMers likely agree with his analysis" regarding "very specific attributes of Islam he approved of within a very specific context". Please comprehend before responding.


What "specifics" are we talking about? Hitler believed that Islam was far better suited to his third Reich, as a tool to control the masses, and he certainly did know about controlling people. I don't see why that makes it any less relevant to the point I was making. Any supposed NSBM band that specifically opposes Islam would be extremely hypocritcal to agree with that sentiment. That's all.

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Alexr1129
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:48 pm
Posts: 7
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:44 am 
 

I don't think it's anything the same as NSBM.
Anti-Islam/Christianity/Hindu/Buddhist is not the same as racist, which is what NSBM is.
I dislike all religions equally, and I'm not racist at all. Any ideas that are forced upon people and told as fact is the wrong approach in my opinion, and equates to a form of control over that person based on fear.
I don't care if people do have beliefs though, as long as they don't try to convert me or push their beliefs on me.

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