Hey, I have just registered to this site although I have been lurking here a year or two earlier. The reason I registered is because I might need help from you guys.

Well my story is that I have ordered CDs from a russian seller through amazon.co.uk.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aag/main?ie= ... HUGIDEZZGB

This is the link to the seller's profile. I first ordered Coroner's Mental Vortex and No More Color in the 10th of June 2012. The CDs arrived a few weeks laters like promised. I opened Mental Vortex and it seemed alright. Then I opened No More Color case and instead of the No More Color disc I found a R.I.P. disc inside. I contacted the seller, he apologized and told me that he will send the No More Color disc to me at his expense. That's alright, but he also said that I DON'T NEED TO RETURN THE R.I.P. CD. At this point I was blinded by the joy that I had actually got both the CDs and the seller was being so nice to me and didn't realize the suspicious fact: He doesn't want it back, so it doesn't matter if he loses it?

So like I said, I was so glad that I decided to order MORE CDs from the same seller! Whee. I ordered Deathrow's Deception Ignored, Mortal Sin's Face Of Despair and Vendetta's Brain Damage. I also told him he could send the missing No More Color CD along with my new order. I hadn't really thought of the possibility of scam, that he might actually be just copying and printing out new CDs.

Later when my suspicions finally awoke, I started doing some research.

I also took a picture from the down side which has the catalogue number - N0075-2)

According to the catalogue number N0075-2 of this R.I.P. CD, this CD is from year 1989. http://www.discogs.com/Coroner-RIP/master/13536 has the information about that.

I also found another site the seller is hosting. http://azintex-music.com/index.php?ukey=home
http://azintex-music.com/index.php?cate ... ection=ASC (Oh man oh man just LOOK at the prices! I wonder how he can sell CDs THAT cheap!)

I found out that after I had bought the CDs I did, they hadn't been removed from the amazon.co.uk marketplace! They're supposed to be used CDs. Also when I tried to order more than one of his CDs it said that the "Seller has only one of them available". Yet it can be ordered again separately. How many of them does he have then?

In fact my friend told me he had also bought No More Color CD from the same seller through amazon.co.uk! Now we both have No More Color from the same buyer. When I visited the Coroner forum I found a thread about different presses of No More Color. http://ratqueen.proboards.com/index.cgi ... thread=436
I found out that these next 2 pictures should be the same press of the No More Color I have:



Here are the pictures I took from my own No More Color:



The last image of the CD's front I uploaded there was the breakthrough. I noticed something. If you compare the earlier image of someone else's (http://imageshack.us/f/405/unled1mr.jpg), I suppose, REAL No More Color CD's frontside, you can see that it has all the bronze and silver colored linings left on the center ring of the CD, whereas if you look at MY CD (http://i49.tinypic.com/n2zuiv.jpg), you can see they're almost completely worn out. So I realized: What if my friend's CD has its bronze and silver linings worn out EXACTLY the same way and from the same places as my CD? That would obviously mean they're copies of each other, because these detritions must be caused by using the CD a lot, they haven't been there from the beginning. So I asked my friend to take a picture from the front of his disc. Here's what we found out. Let me just put these three pictures in a row now (someone's No More Color CD from the internet, my CD and my friend's CD):



If you compare my CD to my friend's CD, they have EXACTLY the same detritions on the coating! How likely is it that the seller has two versions of No More Color, both made in the year 1989 or 1993 (I'm actually not sure: the catalogue number for the CDs is N0138-2, and according to http://www.discogs.com/Coroner-No-More- ... ster/13492 the same catalogue number is for both 1989 and 1993 Germany versions) and during the years they both have suffered exactly the same fate: they both have lost a part of their coating in the middle from exactly the same spots, making the damage looking identical. Well, you don't have to be an Einstein to realize this: They're copies of each other! Therefore I can say pretty surely: The seller makes pirated copies of rare CDs and sells them for quite high prices!

Please, if you have any of these following CDs I'm going to list, take clear pictures of them and their cases so I can compare mine to further verify if these are cheap pirated copies (not cheap for me though, I paid almost 100€ for these). I want you to take pictures from the frontside of the CD, the downside of the CD (the blank one, make sure to get the catalogue number in the middle ring clear!), the booklet and the backside of the case. Make sure you have the same version as me; check the catalogue numbers in your CDs (they're located on the blank side of the CD in the middle ring and on the frontside of the CD as well) and see if they match the catalogue numbers of the CDs I have. This way I can verify that we have the same version of the CD, meaning I can compare them as they SHOULD be identical, at least if mine is not a bootleg:
Coroner - R.I.P. (catalogue number: N 0075-2)
Coroner - No More Color (catalogue number: N 0138-2)
Coroner - Mental Vortex (catalogue number: N 0177-2)
Vendetta - Brain Damage (catalogue number: N 0121-3)
Deathrow - Deception Ignored (catalogue number: N 0128-2)
Mortal Sin - Face Of Despair (catalogue number: 836 370-2)

If you have any experiences with this seller (thetuneofUK in amazon.co.uk, Moscow-Russia in amazon.com, azintex-music in http://www.discogs.com and azintex-music.com as his independent website), like you have bought CDs from this seller or anything, tell me and post some pictures and let's compare if they have completely identical scratches and detritions as well! Also if you know any guides on how to spot fake CDs like this one - http://reviews.ebay.com/How-to-Spot-Fak ... 0006386863 , share them here or share your own experiences with fake CDs and how to spot them! Also if you need any more information or pictures from the CDs for proof, ask me and I'll post! It would be nice to have as many people taking part in this so I can make sure that I'm comparing these CDs with the real ones. And if you don't understand some part of this research, feel free to ask. Any help is appreciated! Let's do this for the sake of collectors who don't want to buy garbage!

There'a almost no way of telling what Noise CDs are fake or real anymore. It's really dragged down their value.

You can check the Deathrow editions (US and EU respectively) here and here. The Discogs link also has pictures of the Deception Ignored bootleg. It has some errors that make it easily recognizable.

Here are some pics of the Coroner CDs.

Something that I don't get about Noise editions is the Dark Wings labelling. Was it a sub-label for distribution or what?

Edited with spoiler tags since the pictures were way too large.

Thanks, I'll check them and report my findings later!



That's quite acceptable. The pictures are too large because I didn't think of resizing them, but on the other hand it's good that they're that large as it's easier to spot details in them.

The seller TheTuneOfUK sells nothing but 100% bootlegs, speaking from the experience I've had with them. Just take a look through their listings - it's an A-Z of rare and hard to find stuff at stupid low prices. What made it worse for me is that the guy behind it was a complete asshole. When I wrote to him saying the matrix code is completely different and it's clearly a bootleg for a couple of CDs I picked up, his response was along the lines of "and how do you know this? Did you make the CD? were YOU in the band?". I pointed him to Musik Sammler, and Discogs etc - and got the response "these websites can easily be edited - how do I know you're not trying to pull a scam on me?". Completely full of shit.

After multiple e-mails back and forth (including mentioning that it's merely 're-issues' or that "record companies press many versions of the same CD over the years, especially with old albums!!!!" - he pretty much admitted he sold 'Russian issue' releases (not even licenced stuff mind - just bootleg 'russian issues' - ha!). This was when I started getting "What do you expect for such a cheap price, from a Russian seller?" etc. Of course, with a name like TuneofUK and no mention of shipping from Russia at the time of ordering (it said shipped from the UK, though that has now changed I notice) - how the fuck would I know? Complete joker. Anyhow, I returned the CDs he sent me and got a refund after claiming an A-Z through Amazon. NEVER use this guy, unless you're happy with flimsy discs which will crap out in 3 months, and cheap, faded booklets and inlays.

As it goes, I've also received Russian bootlegs from the seller 'Cult Metal'. Seems they're rife on Amazon these days. Lesson learned anyway - if you see something dirt cheap which seems too good to be true - it usually is.

I own a few eastern european cd's. Some say "not for sale outside of (insert country or region here)" and from observation a lot of them don't have the same quality as the american counterpart.

The titles with "not for sale outside blah blah blah" are Russian licenced CDs, actually licenced for the Russian market. Although they generally look lesser quality (they generally are lesser quality in my experience), they're at least licenced. These are not, these are bootlegs made by assholes wanting to make a quick buck.

Exactly. It's the same with the Protector albums floating around for $11, all from Russia. I think that Russia is bound to decrown Greece very soon, if it hasn't already happened.

PS: Love your blog Daemonlord. Although it makes me feel depressed most of the time.

Thanks a lot! I already have my own evidence, your support makes me more confident. I'm gonna try to return these CDs without too much of a hassle. Any ideas on how to do it? Should I just be honest and tell me I suspect that he's scamming me or make up some excuse so I get away easier (or is that illegal)? Also, is matrix code the same as catalogue number?

I'm pretty sure my copy of Hammerheart is a Russian bootleg.

Oh well, I got it for like $5 from a second hand shop.

As I have grown more aware of the possible fakes and scams of the CD world, I just examined my Xentrix, Sacred Reich and Nuclear Assault CDs which I bought from Sonic Age Records. When I look at the downside (the blank side) of my Sacred Reich CDs (except for Ignorance) and Xentrix CDs, the catalogue number can't be founded on the inner ring, just the album name! (for example, "Shattered Existence") Also a Nuclear Assault album (Survive) I bought from there for 16€ or so: When I flip it I just find some weirdass code "CMCUCD 049" in the center ring, which I can't find anywhere on www.discogs.com, while having a legit code "IRSD-42195" in the front... I bought the others dirt cheap from Sonic Age Records almost a year ago. I also examined Death Angel's The Ultra-Violence I bought from amazon.co.uk for 30 pounds. It has no text on the blank side, except a code "R 73253 (V)" on the frontside, but everywhere else I can see "7 72548-2" which is another cat number, and the CD indicates that Restless Records has published it, which matches the "7 72548-2" but for the "R 73253 (V)" I can't even find a match in www.discogs.com. Does this mean all these are fakes as well?

i feel your pain, i really do.

Thanks man. I'm not in trouble yet though, haven't spent too much money on fake bootlegs yet. I would guess I have... 12-13 of them now in my collection. This discovery has really shocked me though, how can I trust anything or anyone anymore? How can I be sure that a rare CD is real and not a bootleg? Are there any methods? It's so easy nowadays to produce exact, identical copies, how can I tell?

matrix info, mastering and mould sid codes are pretty difficult to copy
also if they have just been burned they won't be silver they'll have blue green colouration, or at least it'll just look 'not silver' and won't be uniform.

this cunt sold me some fake cds, it was real amateur stuff though: http://gglobb.wordpress.com/fake-cds/

nice nails, OP

I can definitely relate to this as well since I remember buying Coroners Grin CD from some seller in Greece. Until I found out it was a bootleg when another person said that same about his Grin cd which matched my copy (which I ended up bidding for 48 including shipping.)

Not necessarily. Many releases - even common ones - are absent from Discogs, and the ones that are there are frequently incomplete, so it shouldn't be taken as an absolute indicator that your CD is fake (you can try checking the Unoffical section for the band's Discogs page to see if anything matches yours). As dreadmeat mentioned, matrix info (the matrix code is the "weirdass code" on the inner ring of the disc) is often a good way to distinguish between a bootlegged CD and a real one, though it's also frequently a missing element for Discogs pages. Usually a good search of the internet will turn up enough information to verify whether or not it's real, but at this point it sounds like you've got reason enough to doubt the legitimacy of the CDs you have; hope you can get them returned without a hitch.

this is the only reason i'd contribute shit like this to the database: http://www.discogs.com/Vengeance-Rising-Once-Dead/release/3753829
so it can be found and avoided, i don't even understand why that one was bootlegged, i saw one on ebay for [from memory, about] $10 recently...

i really like contributing to discogs' database, you should add these dodgy ones you have too

For getting your money back - I'd contact him as I did. Say you know they're bootlegs and that you want your money back, asking for a returns address. Don't get into a conversation with him like I did as he will try to convince you they're legit. If you get no joy doing that, claim through Amazon and leave him shit feedback to warn others. The guy has a saddening amount of positive feedbacks, clearly from people who're unaware they've been flogged duff goods - even a threat of a negative should get you what you want. Don't be a pussy with bootleggers - tell him straight you know you've been scammed and aren't going to stand for it.

The best way of telling bootlegs these days is not always to rely on the matrix code unfortunately. Sometimes you'll get real amateur hour boots which have the album title or the band name as a matrix - these are easy to spot. However, some bootleggers manage to get the correct matrix codes or at least something very similar. The only way to tell these apart unfortunately is to check the actual font which the matrix code is written in. Not so long ago I had a bootleg copy of Dimmu Borgir's debut album on No Colours - correct matrix - completely the wrong font (though I did double check with a thread here just to be sure as it was part of a trade, and the guy who sent me it was also legitimately completely unaware and pretty annoyed that he in turn had been scammed). As a collector, I can usually spot a fake fairly easily these days just by having a wide range of titles from the same label (as an example), so you get a feeling for the usual 'style' of font on each matrix from the same era - bootlegs will have their own style. Discogs and Musik Sammler are pretty reliable for correct codes, and Google images can sometimes (if you're lucky) be useful for finding the correct 'font' style. Once the bootleggers work out how to copy the style AND the matrices - we're all fucked - haha! Lucky thing is, at the moment the 'font' style is often down to the pressing plant used so it is very hard to immitate.



Cheers man! Yeah Protector albums are bootlegged to hell these days, as well as most of the early Noise stuff (like the above Coroner CDs), Atom H, Active Records, early Black Mark, Combat, Drowned Productions, Music For Nations, early Roadrunner, Under One Flag, ... it's a minefield! Gotta keep an eagle eye on these assholes. Greece is definitely being overtaken by Russia/Baltic States for the bootleg capital of the world!

Don't be a pussy with bootleggers - tell him straight you know you've been scammed and aren't going to stand for it.

f'kn aye

The matrix is often the easyest way to see, but if you cant find it on the matrix/disc etc. For old CD's it maybe not that hard to find out if it is a resent bootleg, on old CD s the insert will have sign of age, typical yellowing/misscoloring for example around the open spaces of the jewelcase and the spine (also look at the inside).

the paper booklets etc will likely 'smell old' too, i always feel weird sniffing cds in the shop.

As has been said the matrix can be cheated so don't rely solely on that. For instance the Deathrow bootleg has the correct matrix code, but it does have a glaring mistake. It has the Noise International CAT# on the spine and the Noise (EU) CAT# on the CD. Nowadays you have to check possible fake copies with a close eye and get all the details together.

It seems also that most boots come from 80's thrash and 90's black metal releases.

@ Daemonlord - When you say that early Black Mark has been bootlegged what albums are you referring to? You've left me curious, mainly because I can't seem to understand what's the deal with all the Edge Of Sanity albums going around, although the current idea is that there have been some represses in the past decade.

Thanks, that's some useful information (and a relief!)



Hey come on, they're not THAT long yet! Ok ok, I'll cut them...



Alright, that's exactly what I will do! Scammers like these deserve shit! And yeah I guess I shouldn't be a pussy, I just wondered if I could avoid all that shit from him but I guess I just have to take it.

Well, I know for 100% that Agressor's Towards Beyond & Symposium of Rebirth on Black Mark have been bootlegged. I've also heard rumour that Invocator's Excursion Demise has also been booted by more than one source, but haven't seen that with my own eyes.

Funny, I had never heard of that band before. Seems like it could warrant some investigation!

Excursion Demise has also been booted you say?! Damned be! Since we're on the subject and you've got some knowledge of these things, can you shed some light on the Black Mark represses from 2003 onwards? It seems they've reprinted if not all then a big part of their back catalogue in that year, but there's hardly any info about it. There's also mention on the usual websites of 2006/2010 represses but info is again scarce. And I'm not referring to Russian editions from IROND. Do you have any info on this matter?

I have a copy of the first Dodheimsgard album which is fake, but matches the original right down to the matrix code.

Notes of known bootlegs and links to images of such would be a great addition to the archives. There should be an attempt to not only provide official releases but also unofficial bootlegs so that people do not get ripped off. After all, this website is a source for most collectors.

By the way, now that we're on the subject; can you tell me if there are any good, obviously reliable sellers and who I should avoid (other than this thetuneofUK)? I don't want this to be the end of my collecting (which hasn't even been going on for a long yet lol)

the trading board has some lists etc
http://www.metal-archives.com/board/viewforum.php?f=6

Shit news indeed Jiikky, as already mentioned a lot of releases from Russia etc nowadays are bootlegs. I myself order a lot of albums from amazon etc usually from uk sellers or the u.s. sometimes. A lot of the time I go for the pre-owned stuff, it's cheaper usually and just about 100% of the time they are original releases, prob due to people selling of their old collections etc or maybe from shops that mainly deal in second hand goods.

Aye, Agressor were pretty good - worth looking into. I have heard about these re-presses, but don't know a lot about it to be honest. As the label is still in operation it wouldn't surprise me if the stuff they have the rights to print & sell (Bathory, Edge of Sanity & anything else they're currently flogging on their webstore) is in a constant ongoing state of re-press. Anything they released which is now considered 'rare', they likely lost the rights to.

This interests me since I'm finally getting my Running Wild collection properly underway.

I suppose if it's such a good fake that I have no easy way of telling, I haven't lost out.

What are the differences with a genuine press, then? ifpi code ?
I'm interested in knowing, as I bought this one second hand not so long ago, and while it does have the same matrix code as discogs, it may be a bootleg...

I contacted the russian seller, he didn't get mad at all and told me the address I must return the items to. The message was quite long though; he said he bought the products from the internet, then he said that the products I bought are mega rare and very expensive all over the internet and he sold them to me for 3-4x cheaper. Why the fuck would he buy the product for an expensive price just to sell them to everyone for 3-4x cheaper?

"I really do not know, dear (name), what you think and what you expect when you buy a mega-rare CD for ridiculous money. I would have understood you, if I sold the Coroner "Mental Vortex" CD for 30-40 GBP, at it's real price. But I sold this CD for only 10.99 GBP. At 3-4 times cheaper. And the other CDs - the same thing." -the seller

Well what I think and expect is a CHEAP BOOTLEG, LOL! Isn't it obvious? It's as if he expects that the cheaper the price on rare CDs the better, while it's usually the other way around - the more expensive the more reliable they are!

"May be relatively objective criterion in Internet - the price of the product. I think that if you are an clever man - you agree with that." -seller

I wonder what he meant by that?

Anyway, no hassle like you had, Daemonlord

I believe so.

If an booklet/inlay of a CD from, lets say 1987 seems like new, then its a very good chance you have the recent fake and not the real item from 87.

Guys don't buy Russian licensed CDs except of Russian bands' CDs! Avoid the labels Irond, CD-Maximum, Soyuz and Sony BMG Russia if you want to buy non-Russian CDs. It's not about good quality. Sometimes it came with non-full booklets and some pirate copies are better, really. They are good only for those who haven't possibility to buy originals due to the lack of it in Russia. Be very careful with Russian sellers and always ask 'em before buying something. For example you may look for original CD but you'll get Russian license or even pirate copy! I think lot of people here in Russia still have their pirate copies from early 00's when it was hard to get something real and they can sell it as original. Sometimes that pirate copies can contain weird bonus tracks. And if you want to buy something from Russian metal music and CD costs more than 10$ - better avoid it because all our CDs cost no more than 10$. Also if the price is lower than 10$ for non-Russian bands be careful - it also can be pirate copy or Russian license. You know Russia is one of the most piracy countries. Yes, original CDs are possible to find and buy in few shops but prices are high, usually 15-20$ for 1 CD. If it's something rare... one of our shop in Moscow sell Protector original CDs and the price was higher that 80$. You know, some "well-organized" huckster sellers just want to get more and more money, they don't care what they selling.
And don't be too surprised if your shipping price will be higher than price of your items - we have expensive post rates.

Interesting, just checked now and it seems the seller has now delisted all their items from Amazon (failing that, they might've been pulled by Amazon). Awesome. Hopefully this thread played some part in that...

I ordered a couple metallica CDs from a seller called musicshop780 a while back. The master of puppets CD was a little washed out colored looking. You can never really tell if something is a bootleg I guess. musicshop780 sells for dirt cheap. I got megadeth rust in peace for like 6 dollars plus 3 dollars shipping.