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circleofdestruction
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 am
Posts: 805
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:10 pm 
 

RageW wrote:
Yep, let us not listen to anything ever again unless we pay for it. I am completely sure that'll do wonders for the new artists who want to get their music known! In fact, let us scorn those same listeners for downloading -- they certainly don't like the music if they don't buy it!

Thanks for illustrating the entitlement issues this generation seems to have...

I don't foresee downloading ever disappearing, I think some of us were simply pointing out that it hasn't always been that way, and that musicians also have bills to pay, so it's kind of shitty to think you're entitled to everything they do for nothing, all the time.
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ralfikk123
Waffle

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:14 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:15 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
csehszlovakze that's for the info, I never knew. Lol even though it's a meme it re-enforces the belief that this generation of worthlessness honestly thinks they deserve everything just because their mom shat them out.


Bit aggressive, no? And yes, our generation of worthlessness that thinks we deserve everything...because we are the only ones pirating right NOW, and no previous generation has ever bootlegged/stole (whatever you wanna call it.)

And as an amateur musician myself (Who hasn't released anything) I understand that an artist wants recognition and pay for the work he did. I understand that completely. (I'm talking about music here only.) And If I offend anyone with what I'm gonna say, I'm sorry, but If you are going to deny someone the privilege to see and share your work because they can't pay for it, in my opinion you are creating art for the wrong reasons. Isn't getting your work out there more important than receiving money for it? And it's not like people are taking your work and saying 'It's mine! I made this!", No. They get it to listen to it and appreciate it, I think a lot of people forget that. People listening to an artist's work and forming their own opinions about it is what I think art is all about, and that I think is the most important thing that matters when it comes to that. Joy > money, but that's just me.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:15 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
There wasn't plenty of avenues to sample an album like there are now.


That's pretty much the core issue here; those who grew up in the 70s, 80s or even 90s will defend the old ways and scorn downloaders; those who grew up in the late 90s and really got into music in the 2000s will be a little less hard-assed about downloading. It's just a question of one's age and how one was brought up. These are new, different times - things are changing. We're in a massive period of transition.

I really like supporting the artists. Whenever there's a really cool underground/less mainstream band I like (like Wrathblade, for example, or Crescent Shield even), I don't even download their album - I just go ahead and save up and buy it. But I admit, I download plenty of shit and I'm not ashamed of it. I buy CDs whenever I can and that's all I can do.
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RageW
Marisa's Harlot

Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:44 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:52 pm 
 

circleofdestruction wrote:
I don't foresee downloading ever disappearing, I think some of us were simply pointing out that it hasn't always been that way, and that musicians also have bills to pay, so it's kind of shitty to think you're entitled to everything they do for nothing, all the time.


Yes, I admit we're leeches. It would be dumb not to, because it's the pure truth. However, if you need to pay your bills that much, a job is a much better, and practical, option. I give away all of my music for free, including CDs; I don't know why anyone wouldn't -- I just want people to listen to them.
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ralfikk123
Waffle

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:14 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:54 pm 
 

RageW wrote:
However, if you need to pay your bills that much, a job is a much better, and practical, option. I give away all of my music for free, including CDs; I don't know why anyone wouldn't -- I just want people to listen to them.


This. This. This. As an artist, you take a risk.
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:23 am 
 

I don't rip my collection of cds. Just about all my friends don't use mp3 players or rip their albums.
But the issue here isn't about you buying the mp3s that's great go on and do that more power to you. It's all the people who think they deserve to have access to the music regardless of how they get it.

Lol on anyone who thinks that an artist shouldn't get anything for their work just because they choose to give away their material. That's how you promote yourself and that's grand but that's not how everyone operates.

additionally that's hilarious anyone thinks an artist should just suck it up basically if their material is taken. Some might not feel the same way.

Sure I release my stuff and I actually don't care that the first day of release that it was immediately up on several blogs to be downloaded. Not everyone feels the same as I do on that and it should've be some sort of sweeping 'oh well' by everyone else.

I just guess the work ethic and earning something is just totally lost nowadays by many. And I'm not even that old. I went to college and got my degree while working full time and whatever part time jobs I could so I could get what I really wanted. I didn't fall back on my parents, i purchased everything i wanted myself. Have zero credit card debt, own my own home and 3 vehicles with my wife, vehicles are all paid off, just got the house 3 years ago... so I'm working on that.

So all the excuses of oh i need to eat or whatever that's why I download are lost on me. I went without buying food or eating when i rather have an album by a band I enjoyed. I knew eventually I'd eat something later and the hunger would past but i'd always have that album in my hands.

So that's why i'm so passionate about this whole... I don't have any money but I want to have this album but I might buy it later mentality just sorta cheapens it for everyone else.
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John_Sunlight
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Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:26 am 
 

I'd download a car. Are we talking about a magical means whereby a car can be materialized by running a computer program? All the saved resources...
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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
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Location: Chile
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:56 am 
 

ralfikk123 wrote:
ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
csehszlovakze that's for the info, I never knew. Lol even though it's a meme it re-enforces the belief that this generation of worthlessness honestly thinks they deserve everything just because their mom shat them out.


Bit aggressive, no? And yes, our generation of worthlessness that thinks we deserve everything...because we are the only ones pirating right NOW, and no previous generation has ever bootlegged/stole (whatever you wanna call it.)

And as an amateur musician myself (Who hasn't released anything) I understand that an artist wants recognition and pay for the work he did. I understand that completely. (I'm talking about music here only.) And If I offend anyone with what I'm gonna say, I'm sorry, but If you are going to deny someone the privilege to see and share your work because they can't pay for it, in my opinion you are creating art for the wrong reasons. Isn't getting your work out there more important than receiving money for it? And it's not like people are taking your work and saying 'It's mine! I made this!", No. They get it to listen to it and appreciate it, I think a lot of people forget that. People listening to an artist's work and forming their own opinions about it is what I think art is all about, and that I think is the most important thing that matters when it comes to that. Joy > money, but that's just me.


I think SLK is completely right and you demonstrate it. You seem to think that the artist' work have a value only given for what the public are willing to pay (which nowadays is 0). Artist are not beggars and should not be.

To write a song/album, to play it consistently, to record it properly, to put it on a cd/tape/vinyl, to distribute it, to manage the websites, to rehearse; all those things have a value, costs money, takes talent, effort and resources to be done. Of course it's awesome when people likes it, but the best and only real way a 'fan' can support an artist it's to buy the damned album, merch and attending the gigs. I don't think the majority of the musicians takes all that effort and costs just to put their work for lazy/uninterested people to get it. Yes, people who actually just download stuff and don't buy a shit have 0 love for the music and the artist that creates it. Very few - if no one - gives a high value to something that can get for free.

And we can't simply compare the tape trading with this ridiculous era of endless downloadings. Tape trading wasn't about to leave the pc all night downloading thousands of albums (where the leecher will listen barely a 5%, if not less), to rip an album often you had/wanted to do it with friends, listening the album, having a good time, etx. When you recorded your tapes, you actually listened the albums from start to finish - to make sure it was recorded well and cause it was THE way to discover new bands (along with zines, for example). You actually shared your tastes, not just saying 'hey, here's a link of xxxx album', but saying 'hey, I've got this new album, let's get some beers and hear it! It was something social, it was a real way to share not just music, but having good times, having a friendship, you know?

Maybe this sounds nostalgic but I truly think this generation that have and wants everything for free at the minimum effort have a minimum or a null grasp of what an album is worth, what art takes to exist, what it takes to be an artist and surviving as one.
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lalande 21185
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:22 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:05 am 
 

Piracy will never end, it's just how things are now. The fans and collectors will always buy the product, and support the band. As was stated be glad someone is even listening to your music. Unless you are Metallica or Judas Priest, you will never make a profit playing metal. Every musician who wants to play in a metal band, should accept this going in. If you are able to make a profit, cool. If not but you got to play for 10 people, and 2 of them bought your CD I think that's pretty impressive. How many people can say they played to 10 people, and 2 of them spent money on their CD? More than I ever did.

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circleofdestruction
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:54 am 
 

RageW wrote:
Yes, I admit we're leeches. It would be dumb not to, because it's the pure truth. However, if you need to pay your bills that much, a job is a much better, and practical, option. I give away all of my music for free, including CDs; I don't know why anyone wouldn't -- I just want people to listen to them.

I'm not saying artists should be greedy, I'm saying their time is worth at least as much as anyone else's. I don't think it's out of line for a musician to want a couple bucks to cover their gear and a few beers from time to time.

Also, what Shaolin and Kveldulfr said. Making music takes some time and money, equipment costs money. I'm not talking about getting rich, I'm talking about breaking even so one can continue to make music.

On the other side of things, dunno is you need to be on his FB to read it, but here is Vrangsinn (from Carpathian Forest's) view on piracy, which I found interesting:
http://www.facebook.com/notes/vrangsinn ... 9178441667
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ralfikk123
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:33 am 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
I think SLK is completely right and you demonstrate it. You seem to think that the artist' work have a value only given for what the public are willing to pay (which nowadays is 0). Artist are not beggars and should not be.

To write a song/album, to play it consistently, to record it properly, to put it on a cd/tape/vinyl, to distribute it, to manage the websites, to rehearse; all those things have a value, costs money, takes talent, effort and resources to be done. Of course it's awesome when people likes it, but the best and only real way a 'fan' can support an artist it's to buy the damned album, merch and attending the gigs. I don't think the majority of the musicians takes all that effort and costs just to put their work for lazy/uninterested people to get it. Yes, people who actually just download stuff and don't buy a shit have 0 love for the music and the artist that creates it. Very few - if no one - gives a high value to something that can get for free.

And we can't simply compare the tape trading with this ridiculous era of endless downloadings. Tape trading wasn't about to leave the pc all night downloading thousands of albums (where the leecher will listen barely a 5%, if not less), to rip an album often you had/wanted to do it with friends, listening the album, having a good time, etx. When you recorded your tapes, you actually listened the albums from start to finish - to make sure it was recorded well and cause it was THE way to discover new bands (along with zines, for example). You actually shared your tastes, not just saying 'hey, here's a link of xxxx album', but saying 'hey, I've got this new album, let's get some beers and hear it! It was something social, it was a real way to share not just music, but having good times, having a friendship, you know?

Maybe this sounds nostalgic but I truly think this generation that have and wants everything for free at the minimum effort have a minimum or a null grasp of what an album is worth, what art takes to exist, what it takes to be an artist and surviving as one.


How do you know what I think? Trust me, I'm willing to pay a lot for albums. After all, I have to pay 20 bucks or more for a new vinyl release. I think it's worth it. And of course that to each artist, their work has a lot of sentimental value to them. However, each person/listener puts their own value on what an album is worth (not a money issue entirely.)

Okay, cool. I understand that it takes effort and talent, I write and compose my own music too (on piano mostly.) See the thing is, bands won't make a living on album sales. The vocalist for Alestorm is on this forum, he said that pretty much the only way you can make money is from merch and gigs. Well, can you pirate merch? Sure, you can make your own, but how many people do that? And even if they paint the band logo on a sweatshirt, it's still not official. Thus, 99% of people buy official merch which directly supports the band in full effort. You obviously can't pirate a gig, so if you are a fan you go to a gig and you support the band. Where does this idea that people who download, hate that band and only download to steal money and royalties, come from? How are these people uninterested? And why is it that those people have no love for the artist? They take the time to listen to him/them, cherish their music, go to gigs and buy merch. How is that not love?

How is it not the same? Both of it is illegal. Both are means to share new music, explore new artists, and have fun with friends. Why is it that I can't burn the files onto a CD, call up my friends and say "Hey let's listen to this new awesome band! I'll bring the beers dudes!." The point is, you were still sharing, you were still illegaly copying the tapes, but of course doing it at a smaller scale. You still hurt the bands and artists like you say.

And yes, I bet I'll be saying the same thing about the next generation, same way as you are saying this about this one, and how the one before was saying it about yours. But of course, you are the expert of what this generation is about, and what it's value of an album is!
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circleofdestruction
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:50 am 
 

ralfikk123 wrote:
See the thing is, bands won't make a living on album sales.

So unless they are going to get rich, they deserve nothing at all? Even in the past, underground bands still didn't make a living off their music. As someone already said, you have to be Metallica or Judas Priest to do that. I don't think anyone is suggesting that, if it weren't for downloading, all these garage bands and bedroom black metal projects would be getting rich off CD sales.

Quote:
How is that not love?

I also didn't see where anyone is saying downloaders don't necessarily "love" the music. Just that they aren't supporting it financially. Love doesn't pay for new/better equipment, or studio sessions.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:53 am 
 

Funny, y'all. I've been devoting my entire spare time and most of my income to making music for what, eighteen years now? I've been running a label for what, eight years? Still I have never even come close to breaking even. It's a money-sink, and I don't particularly care. I spend around a thousand bucks a year on new gear (getting a digital drumkit soon, neat-o), and about five hundred on tapes that no one buys. And I still don't care. I spend about three hours a day practicing my guitar, two hours of which I spend trying to come up with new riffs and putting them together to form songs, sometimes with success, sometimes wasting my time on dead ends. I spend about another hour a day practicing drumming. I am doing this because this is my passion, I live for making music. So I sink all my time, energy and money into this. And who buys it? Nobody. Do I care? No. It's not going to stop me. It never should. As long as I have a roof over my head and food on the table, why care?

That is just my opinion on how a musician should break even. Pretty much every other hobby is a money-sink. You think people who invest all their money on model trains and spend eight hours a day building elaborate tracks through little mountains and little villages with hundreds of tiny details break even? No. They don't earn a dime from it. You think people who spend four hours a day going to the gym working out break even? No. They don't earn a dime from it. How about the people who travel the world? Or Zippo collectors? Or whatever? I think I like the example with the model trains best. That's just how it is with these things, whether they are "just hobbies", or whether, like the model train builder, you invest every spare moment into it to get it to perfection, in the end all you have a nice model landscape, or some big muscles, or a beautiful collection of rare Zippos, or whatever, to look at with pride. This is your work, your creation, from the sweat of your brow, and no one can take it away from you.

There's a lot of whining in this thread. I've been a musician since I got my first little flute at age six, and it's been my passion ever since. I know how much time and energy goes into it. And I've seen my demos and albums pop up on download blogs while the actual CDs and tapes rot away in my apartment, gathering dust and taking up space. You don't see me whining about it, that's just how things are and I've accepted this reality. It is how it is for most artists. It has nothing to do with piracy, either. Most of the bands who put out demo tapes in the 80s and 90s never got rid of them, either. Not every obscure Swedish death metal demo from 1991 becomes a cult classic. Very few of them did. The vast majority of bands, most of which to this day no one has ever heard of, put out their demo, traded a few copies with pen pals they know from xeroxed fanzines, and the rest of their demo tapes is now rotting away in one of the band members' basement, or some landfill, or anywhere than in the hands of someone who paid money for them. That's how it has always been in the underground, you're either really good and a tad lucky, or nobody will buy your stuff. Piracy or no piracy. Put out a demo and chances are 90% or higher that you won't get rid of it. Whether it's 2012 with Soulseek on every computer, or in 1991 before anybody has even heard of Fraunhofer's MPEG Audio Layer III.

And yeah, I've been buying CDs since I was a kid. I still buy a couple CDs each month. I think I got about 15 CDs in May. And I go to shows. And I buy t-shirts. And patches. Every cent that isn't spent on rent, food or music gear, is spent on buying CDs, going to shows, buying t-shirts and patches, supporting the artists. But guess what? I'm running Soulseek as I type this. Just today I have downloaded two bands' discographies. And don't you believe that bullshit that leechers only listen to 5% of what they download. When I download something, I listen to it. I download for the express purpose of listening to it. Listening to it with my full attention, at least several times. Alone or with friends. I don't download stuff for the purpose of letting it rot in some hidden folder on my harddrive, just to have the mp3s. I love music, and something is on the whole day. Perhaps this devotion makes me different from other people who download, people who leech everything they find and download all day every day, indeed only listening to 5% or less of it. I download a band's discography maybe once or twice a month, and fully familiarize myself with it. And eventually I buy everything I like. This is universally true for everything I have downloaded and enjoyed and which isn't currently out of print. There are a lot of generalizations in this thread, and I think it's rather sad. I will not have people question my dedication to good music or good musicians just because they are disgruntled that today's generation has easier access to music than they did.

I've been into tape-trading. Ever since I can think back. That's how I got into music as a toddler. Someone at school would have an album and you'd borrow it and copy it, and lend albums you have for them to copy. Then came zines giving you an opportunity to trade with people beyond your immediate surrounding, giving you even wider access to stuff. It was indeed a great way of discovering music. Someone from the other side of the country would copy you a 20 minute demo you requested, and fill up the rest of the 90 minute tape with other music he/she liked. Pretty neat for the time. Even when I started downloading music off the net, I'd continue tape trading for that reason. For years, no less. I got my first Napster account around 2000 and continued tape trading well into 2005 or so. Kveldulfr certainly is right that it had its perks. BUT anyone with any experience in downloading music can tell you that it has its perks too. You'd chat and exchange recommendations. You'd look at lists and check out stuff somebody else likes who has a lot in common with you, and so on. In the end, and that is why I eventually quit tape trading, it became just as rewarding, if not more so. Discovering the real gems is what matters. It leads to your spending the money on those who deserve it the most.

I really have to shake my head at what seems to be the general consensus here. A lot of it just seems really misguided, and mostly driven by, as speedemon86 once put it, "silly nostalgia, and possibly and even more ridiculous self-importance from seniority." Things are fine the way they are. This is coming from a full-blood musician, label owner, zine writer, podcast host, DJ, and all-around ultra-dedicated metalhead in particular and music fan in general. Lots of little rants in this post, I apologize, I just don't get all the fuss.
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ralfikk123
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:56 am 
 

^
Pretty much the smartest thing anyone has said in here, or could have said. I applaud you good sir. :nods:


@circleofdestruction

Kveldulfr said that.

And no I'm not saying that. Bands get little to nothing from album sales, so it's not a such a huge deal like a lot of people make it out to be. "Oh you don't buy albums, you don't support the artist!" Listening to a band, going to gigs, and buying merch from those gigs Is the best way a fan can support that band financially.
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:03 am 
 

Ralf said:
Quote:
The vocalist for Alestorm is on this forum, he said that pretty much the only way you can make money is from merch and gigs. Well, can you pirate merch?


:-D

Sorry, I'm going to sleep now, but I agree with everything he said and what a post by Droneriot. ShaolinLambKiller should take some notes, that's arguing with passion, there's no insults to be found there.
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circleofdestruction
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:01 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Discovering the real gems is what matters. It leads to your spending the money on those who deserve it the most.

What I got as the general consensus here is that people say they don't want to ever spend any money on any music, ever, not that they were spending it on whoever deserves it the most.
Quote:
"Oh you don't buy albums, you don't support the artist!" Listening to a band, going to gigs, and buying merch from those gigs Is the best way a fan can support that band financially.

true dat. I don't go to shows, so yeah, I buy albums. And again, what I got from most of this thread was that it was pointless to spend money on music, ever, and that's what I disagree with. I like having physical formats, and I can't see physical formats continuing to exist if no one ever buys them.
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:50 am 
 

RageW wrote:
Yep, let us not listen to anything ever again unless we pay for it. I am completely sure that'll do wonders for the new artists who want to get their music known! In fact, let us scorn those same listeners for downloading -- they certainly don't like the music if they don't buy it!



How many who download an album "just for a listen" don't bother buying a physical copy if they like it?

That's what youtube and places like Last fm are for, you can listen anytime you want, then when you find something you really like, buy it and show support.

Now that sites like bandcamp are being set up expressly to make sure artists get something for their efforts, there are less excuses to turn to other means. If you can't afford stuff, bookmark the page and it's there.
It's only ok to download for free when you have the artists permission, just because one is happy, or doesn't care, doesn't automatically give you the green light to download anything you want.


Maybe artists now rely on selling merch and tickets because so many fans don't expect to pay for music, which was initially caused by shops charging 15+ quid for an album (to a captive audience) which was way too much and the main reason people started downloading. Artists are taking more control, and with technology can cut out dependence on others who inflate the prices.
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:48 am 
 

I do what I do cause I love what I do. I don't ever expect to recoup the money otherwise I would've joined 3 doors down when they had drum tryouts so the singer could be just the singer. Not every artist plays shows be it by choice or circumstance. So saying... I'll download this but when they come to town I'll go attend. It's all flawed logic.


and Tony, there is no need for you meantion me since you fall in the category of the people I've rallied against. But I guess you didn't bother reading anything else I said since the 2nd page since I did a very similar post to droneriot. I get it, you don't like me around for whatever reason.
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:39 am 
 

To clarify, I'm not saying that every band should get rich or something or every downloader it's a 100% leecher that doesn't buy a damn thing. To make an album has its costs and effort and I think fans and people who happen to like the work should buy it to contribute in some extent to the people who creates and works to give you what you enjoy, just like any physical thing you buy and can't 'download/steal', not cause the artist wants/expect to make a living of it (who does it?), it's cause fans should value what the artists does and simply liking it it's not enough IMO - I mean, if you downloaded an album and you liked it, why don't buying it if you can? I still stand to the natural stance of people taking what they can no matter if it's 'correct' or not tho.

I just want to add something: not every people in the world has the chance to see their fav bands live every year. Besides the obvious distances, there are plenty of bands that simply don't tour. For instance, I would love to see Varathron playing live but I live in the butt of the world and I'm sure they won't be coming here. I'm a huge fan of Ulver, Borknagar, Empyrium, Kampfar, among many others, can I attend a gig of them right now? nope. Do they play live? some does, some doesn't. I've traveled and seen some bands, yes, but for most of center/southamerican, african, (some) asian people, they have attended just a handful of gigs of the most mainstream bands and probably they will never see their fav bands ever, so how we/they support the artist? I buy the albums/dvd's, buy merch, if I can, I go to the live shows, make recommendations. I have no other options.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:02 am 
 

circleofdestruction wrote:
What I got as the general consensus here is that people say they don't want to ever spend any money on any music, ever, not that they were spending it on whoever deserves it the most.

I have not seen that, but I admit to having only read the second half of the thread. And all I have seen there were broad generalizations and demonization based entirely on strawman arguments. And I see this is continuing even after I made a post which I hoped would clear some things up. Apparently some people can't get enough of their "mindless leecher who never spends a dime on music"-strawman.
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lord_ghengis
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:11 am 
 

It really does seem some people see downloaders as people who steal and NEVER buy, I can say my 400 or so album collection would never have happened without downloading. I might buy some Black tribe just to spite this thread and celebrate drones post (drone is black tribe right?)
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:09 am 
 

I have heard people say that they think it's a waste of time to buy music. Which is pretty sad.
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ralfikk123
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:33 am 
 

circleofdestruction wrote:
true dat. I don't go to shows, so yeah, I buy albums. And again, what I got from most of this thread was that it was pointless to spend money on music, ever, and that's what I disagree with. I like having physical formats, and I can't see physical formats continuing to exist if no one ever buys them.


Jeeeez Louise, WHO on earth has been saying this? Have you not been reading what I wrote?
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:14 pm 
 

I had a thought about consumption of music, and musicians getting money from it. It's not just people not buying albums, but also terrible conditions to play live and tour. It's long and rambling, but the point is that the bands see very little of the money that it takes to see a show. This has also changed over the years, and I think this is also a very significant factor in it being nearly impossible to earn money as a musicians.

I live in an area fairly close to a few large cities, a fairly central location. There are four cities (80-150k) each surrounded by suburbs (2-3x the population) that are all very close together - the furthest distance from one to another is ~30 miles, maybe 35 driving a bit out of the way on highways coming from the south end of one to the other. None of them have venues that book touring metal bands at all, though there are a few that do oldies with some jazz/blues mixed in, but nothing even close to hard rock. There's hardly a local metal scene, and it's rare to find a local metal band without hard rock/alt rock bands on the bill, so local shows don't happen too much. A bit further away, there's a venue that books roughly one metal show per year, and I generally go to that one show per year because it's only a ~45 minute drive. Essentially, the only options for shows in an affluent, densely populated area that otherwise has a ton of everything else:

NYC - $23 train ticket, plus the cost of gas driving to the train station. More money for a cab/subway/bus if you want, I just walk everywhere. Depending on the venue, it's 2-2.5 hours just in getting there. Everything is more expensive in NY, including tickets to shows, food, and drinks. A beer will cost $7-12 at a show. Add in a meal at twice the cost of what it would be anywhere else. A $20 ticket generally ends up costing around $35-40 after fees, a $30 ticket will end up being near $50, even with a bit of a reduction in fees recently. The $20 that the venue splits between them and all the bands comes out of:
$20 ticket + $15 fees + $23 train ticket + food/beer/merch or whatever. Assuming there are at least three bands on the bill, I'll assume that each band gets $8/5/2 from the cost of the ticket and the venue takes only a quarter of it. If I spend $60 to get to a show and get in, before food and beer and merch, I've spent $60 and a band isn't likely to get more than $8 from that. I could help them out by buying a shirt for $20 - assume $5 to buy the shirts and have them printed (less if they're cheap crap that I try to avoid, more if they're not a big band and don't print much merch) and then the venue takes 25-30%, so the band gets $9 or so from a $20 purchase.

Same situation but going to Hartford. ~110 miles round trip is going to be $20-30 in gas, plus any stops/picking up friends. I'll normally split that in half with a friend. Cheaper tickets because it's not NYC and the venue is a cave. The fees have been pretty bad in the past though - a $10 ticket to see two national headliners was $22 after fees, plus the cost of gas. Assuming I'm splitting the cost of gas with someone but also going a bit out of the way to get them, that's $15 each on gas, $10 on a ticket, $12 in fees. How much does a band get from a $10 ticket? Assuming there's a few bands, $2-3 if they're lucky. It costs me nearly $40 to see a show that a band gets a few bucks from. If I'm spending $60ish on a more expensive ticket and more expensive fees, maybe $15 total will be split amongst a few bands. Since so much of the cost is travel, it feels like it's worth it to go out and eat, have a few beers, and grab a shirt and spend twice the money in one trip rather than going super cheap for two shows.

The bands also have to deal with the high price of gas, which can easily make touring a money-losing affair. Unfortunate changes in circumstances have made it so that concerts are more expensive, and only a fraction of your money spent gets to the band. The cost of gas is high for you and the band, and unless you live in a major city, getting to shows isn't going to be much cheaper. Venues and ticketing services are taking a big cut too - venues have higher costs these days because of higher real estate prices and increased insurance costs/requirements on them. We really don't have an answer to any of this other than avoiding ticketing fees with independent venues. Live music is tough to support because of the cost of gas and the cost of operating a venue, they're much higher than they were in past years. More bands were able to tour when gas was $1 per gallon rather than $4-5.

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Rotting_Christ_Mike
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:48 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:31 pm 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
I just want to add something: not every people in the world has the chance to see their fav bands live every year. Besides the obvious distances, there are plenty of bands that simply don't tour. For instance, I would love to see Varathron playing live but I live in the butt of the world and I'm sure they won't be coming here. I'm a huge fan of Ulver, Borknagar, Empyrium, Kampfar, among many others, can I attend a gig of them right now? nope. Do they play live? some does, some doesn't. I've traveled and seen some bands, yes, but for most of center/southamerican, african, (some) asian people, they have attended just a handful of gigs of the most mainstream bands and probably they will never see their fav bands ever, so how we/they support the artist? I buy the albums/dvd's, buy merch, if I can, I go to the live shows, make recommendations. I have no other options.


Amen to that! That is exactly what I came here to say. What if you can't attend a gig? What if the band is a one-man band and does not tour? What if it's just a band that never tours for whatever reason? What if you live thousands and thousands of miles away from the band? You say that bands only make profit from merch and gigs, eh? That's because people like you continue not to buy the music forcing the artists to turn to other ways of making profit, i.e touring their assess off. By trying to justify your actions saying that you support the bands by attending gigs you just show that you're a part of that problem.

On the topic of this thread, I agree with Shaolin and circleofdestruction's views but I think that people like droneriot maybe can be excused for downloading because what he does is responsible downloading with the pure intention of checking out the music and later buying it. There are however countless brats who use that excuse but have never bought a single album int their entire lives; those people are not justified.
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dystopia4
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:44 pm 
 

First off, 100% agree with droneriot's post. I think complaining about piracy is fairly pointless, its not going to go away. For me, when I start releasing music (which hopefully will be this year), I honestly wouldn't care if people downloaded it for free. I'm a musician because I love the music first and foremost, not because I expect to make a profit. Without downloading most of us wouldn't have discovered our favourite bands; bands that we later bought the albums of. I think piracy actually helps the underground in a way as it lets people here bands they wouldn't otherwise even know about. As for it hurting major labels, they're parasites, I'd love to see them burn. However, I do think that people who only download and never buy the albums of bands they love are complete leaches and bad for the scene.

The one thing about piracy is it makes bands have to try harder to make people buy. I'm willing to spend extra money on a special vinyl release. I just bought Agalloch's newest full length on blue splatter vinyl for almost $35. I just bought Pelican's Australasia on gold vinyl for over $40. Interesting/amazing packaging definitely factors in when I'm considering a purchase. Also, it means bands have to get more creative with their merch. I mean, a Khanate hunting knife? I'd buy that in a second if it was still in stock.
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ralfikk123
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:27 pm 
 

Rotting_Christ_Mike wrote:


Amen to that! That is exactly what I came here to say. What if you can't attend a gig? What if the band is a one-man band and does not tour? What if it's just a band that never tours for whatever reason? What if you live thousands and thousands of miles away from the band? You say that bands only make profit from merch and gigs, eh? That's because people like you continue not to buy the music forcing the artists to turn to other ways of making profit, i.e touring their assess off. By trying to justify your actions saying that you support the bands by attending gigs you just show that you're a part of that problem.


You do realize that the reason artists don't make money from CDs is not because people don't buy them, but because artists really only receive a small fraction of album sales? Producers, managers, and labels get pretty much the entire part of the profits. It's not because people don't buy their music. That's silly. And you are saying that artists are forced to do this tedious, tiring, and 'only option left' touring because they don't get money from album sales? Hah! And there I though artists tour because they want to. They want to play in front of their fans and they do it willingly. How foolish am I to think that! And also about the profit thing, It's been said here and elsewhere that new bands won't make money while playing metal. So, why start a band with that mindset in the first place, that I have to make money doing this?

And well you do support bands by going to gigs and buying merch. You will support a band more by doing that than buying a CD. Either way (If you pirate or not) You still listen to the band and share their music with your friends, expanding their popularity.

And for the countless time, I buy all my music, physical copies, no downloads. Probably the most major purchase I did was buy Cauldron's entire discography for 80 bucks.
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RageW
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:39 pm 
 

Hot damn, this is like the DeviantArt types begging people to PayPal them donations so they can "keep doing their art." It's a hobby, I do it because I love writing and recording music, and if people will listen to it and like it, all the better. I give all of my stuff away at shows because local metalheads barely have enough money to cost the simple trip to the venue, and I do it because it's fun. It's fun to play, it's fun to write, it's fun to record, it's fun to spend money on buying equipment and releasing stuff because I like to do it.

If an artist gets into art, it's because they genuinely find passion in doing it, regardless of whatever they spend on it. I say that as somebody who has put a lot of time, effort and resources into his music, and I wouldn't want it any other way. I may be pretty young, but I've been into writing music for around ten years, even before I got a guitar; it has always been my favourite thing to do; and with that, even being able to make a tiny amount of money just enough to cover a couple of beers after playing a gig is the most amazing feeling in the world. Again, if you want to pay your bills, get another job; music and art probably will not do it for you.
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Rotting_Christ_Mike
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:01 pm 
 

ralfikk123 wrote:
Rotting_Christ_Mike wrote:


Amen to that! That is exactly what I came here to say. What if you can't attend a gig? What if the band is a one-man band and does not tour? What if it's just a band that never tours for whatever reason? What if you live thousands and thousands of miles away from the band? You say that bands only make profit from merch and gigs, eh? That's because people like you continue not to buy the music forcing the artists to turn to other ways of making profit, i.e touring their assess off. By trying to justify your actions saying that you support the bands by attending gigs you just show that you're a part of that problem.


You do realize that the reason artists don't make money from CDs is not because people don't buy them, but because artists really only receive a small fraction of album sales? Producers, managers, and labels get pretty much the entire part of the profits. It's not because people don't buy their music. That's silly. And you are saying that artists are forced to do this tedious, tiring, and 'only option left' touring because they don't get money from album sales? Hah! And there I though artists tour because they want to. They want to play in front of their fans and they do it willingly. How foolish am I to think that! And also about the profit thing, It's been said here and elsewhere that new bands won't make money while playing metal. So, why start a band with that mindset in the first place, that I have to make money doing this?

And well you do support bands by going to gigs and buying merch. You will support a band more by doing that than buying a CD. Either way (If you pirate or not) You still listen to the band and share their music with your friends, expanding their popularity.

And for the countless time, I buy all my music, physical copies, no downloads. Probably the most major purchase I did was buy Cauldron's entire discography for 80 bucks.


Think for a moment that before the downloading era, bands could make a lot of money from physical album sales whereas today that is damn near impossible. The reason why the band only gets a small fraction from the money earned by the sales is that the label has to cover its cost to make the album meaning the things that you posted (mastering, producing, pressing) plus make profit. Since less people buy the albums than earlier years, a smaller amount of money is left for the band after the costs of the label have been covered. In other words because so few people actually buy the product, by the time the costs of the label have been covered there is barely some extra profit left a part of which goes to the band.

Of course there are artists touring for the love of it, but there are also plenty who clearly say that it's not their kind of thing but it's the only option left for them to make a buck. Statements like that are made daily and are the ones who are usually start long debates in the comment section of Blabbermouth, where discussions like this one take place. Of course many of them enjoy playing for their fans, but not necessarily enjoy staying in shitholes and driving for hours and hours to play in shitty small clubs and receive only minimal amounts of money. Many bands like the occasional performance but not the hard life of the road. No one said that they have to become rich out of this. What we are trying to say is that the artist should receive something in exchange to their product on which they spend hours of work and considerable amounts of money. They should at least come close to covering their costs because lets face it; as much as you love metal you have to survive therefore you have to make money.

You do support the bands by going to their gigs, but what I was trying to say is that most fans of a band do not have the chance to attend a band's gig.

I do not doubt that you buy your music.
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WaywardSon
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:10 pm 
 

RageW wrote:
Hot damn, this is like the DeviantArt types begging people to PayPal them donations so they can "keep doing their art."


I'm just reading along because everything pretty much has been said, especially in droneriot's post, but I do have to say this is possibly the stupidest comment in the thread.
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:08 pm 
 

If you have nothing interesting to contribute, don't post.
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:01 pm 
 

It would be interesting to hear the views of more established bands, so far its only been from hobbyists (no offence intended) who have no problem giving their music for free and don't expect to make a living from it.


RageW wrote:
Again, if you want to pay your bills, get another job; music and art probably will not do it for you.


People who write good music should always be rewarded for their contribution, maybe it's attitudes that need to change? Maybe all internet users should be charged a small amount monthly which goes to artists whose work has been downloaded?
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ralfikk123
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:16 pm 
 

Rotting_Christ_Mike wrote:
Think for a moment that before the downloading era, bands could make a lot of money from physical album sales whereas today that is damn near impossible. The reason why the band only gets a small fraction from the money earned by the sales is that the label has to cover its cost to make the album meaning the things that you posted (mastering, producing, pressing) plus make profit. Since less people buy the albums than earlier years, a smaller amount of money is left for the band after the costs of the label have been covered. In other words because so few people actually buy the product, by the time the costs of the label have been covered there is barely some extra profit left a part of which goes to the band.

Of course there are artists touring for the love of it, but there are also plenty who clearly say that it's not their kind of thing but it's the only option left for them to make a buck. Statements like that are made daily and are the ones who are usually start long debates in the comment section of Blabbermouth, where discussions like this one take place. Of course many of them enjoy playing for their fans, but not necessarily enjoy staying in shitholes and driving for hours and hours to play in shitty small clubs and receive only minimal amounts of money. Many bands like the occasional performance but not the hard life of the road. No one said that they have to become rich out of this. What we are trying to say is that the artist should receive something in exchange to their product on which they spend hours of work and considerable amounts of money. They should at least come close to covering their costs because lets face it; as much as you love metal you have to survive therefore you have to make money.

You do support the bands by going to their gigs, but what I was trying to say is that most fans of a band do not have the chance to attend a band's gig.

I do not doubt that you buy your music.


Okay, don't forget that downloading means that you download an album, both pirating it, and buying it (from iTunes for example) which most people do. If bands could have made a lot of money, why were there so many failed bands? Why were there so many bands that popped out, released albums, but never got big and never made money? And no. The reason why bands only get a small fraction of money from an album isbecause that's how it's always been. How is there less people buying an album? You realize that more people buy an album legally rather than torrenting it? A label will never give a band more money than they have to, less, but not more. And where do you get this idea that 'so few people actually buy the product'? Where is this idea coming from? Have you seen the 'Recently purchased' thread?

And yes, there are bands who don't like to tour. But, like Reiter said, get a job. Don't expect to make money and support yourself. In most cases that's not even possible. Yeah, driving and staying in shitty conditions is bad, but that's a sacrifice you need to make in order to play for your fans. After all, it is a hobby. And why would you expect to make a living off of CDs, while agreeing that you can't make a profit from it anymore as a metal band, blaming piracy for it, and then complaining that you are forced to tour because you're not making money from CDs? What... Hard life on the road, again, sacrifice (hobby.) "No one said that they have to become rich out of this", than why are you complaining that bands don't make money off of CDs? And artists do receive something in exchange, the money from merch and gigs. And they should come close to covering the costs? But you yourself agreed with droneriot that it is a hobby, and that means you shouldn't expect to make money from it, but do it for fun (Thus being an artist for the right reasons.) And if you want to make money and survive, (Knowing you won't make a living off of metal) get a job. That's how most bands do it.

Well than oh well, you still buy merch. There are dedicated fans who travel miles to see their bands.
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:22 pm 
 

mindshadow wrote:
It would be interesting to hear the views of more established bands, so far its only been from hobbyists (no offence intended) who have no problem giving their music for free and don't expect to make a living from it.


RageW wrote:
Again, if you want to pay your bills, get another job; music and art probably will not do it for you.


People who write good music should always be rewarded for their contribution, maybe it's attitudes that need to change? Maybe all internet users should be charged a small amount monthly which goes to artists whose work has been downloaded?

What about people who are writing bad music? That's quite subjective.
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iAm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:23 pm 
 

mindshadow wrote:
It would be interesting to hear the views of more established bands, so far its only been from hobbyists (no offence intended) who have no problem giving their music for free and don't expect to make a living from it.


coughMetallicacough
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:26 pm 
 

iAm wrote:
mindshadow wrote:
It would be interesting to hear the views of more established bands, so far its only been from hobbyists (no offence intended) who have no problem giving their music for free and don't expect to make a living from it.


coughMetallicacough


Tobias Sammet is pretty hardcore anti-downloading.
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:29 pm 
 

Metantoine wrote:
What about people who are writing bad music? That's quite subjective.



Set up legitmate sites for downloading (licensed?) everytime someone downloads an album, EP or whatever, credit is accrued for that artist, if their music isn't popular they won't make much. So many people using the internet who aren't interested in music or would only download a nominal amount cover the ones who take more (but have a cap on their usage which is policed by their internet service provider)
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:31 pm 
 

Back in the day (around 2000-2002) mp3.com had a system set up that gave you a few cents when someone downloaded or streamed your music.
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Wolfgong
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:33 pm 
 

So how much would change if piracy was completely stopped.
You were forced to buy the album.

People with little to no money would still buy nothing, alas no longer perhaps hear anythough either. People that already collect would maintain status qou spending and supporting the same, perhaps they would hear less in the end without downloads, but the money being spent/made via album sales relatively stays the same.

Maybe the broke people out of desperation would purchase the odd album here or there ?

Really it seems to me not much would change. The personalities that buy already or still do, and those that don't probably never would anyways.


Personally, there is soooooo much being produced that it's impossible even for a fairly well to do soul to support everything.

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hey
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:41 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:45 pm 
 

Wolfgong, that really doesn't seem like a valid conclusion at all. From your post, it sounds like saying that people only pirate music because they don't have enough money to actually pay for it. While there's certainly some people who that's true for, isn't it a bit unrealistic to account for everybody who primarily realizes on pirating as not having disposable income to buy music? To me, it would seem more likely that they're ignoring whatever legal or artistic rights the artist may have (regardless of the validity of them) or find that the cost and convenience of pirating would make it more appealing. I'd imagine that if piracy were to just somehow disappear, album sales would go up.

It's not like people would just lose interest in music, would they?

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