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MetalCuresHeadaches
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:35 pm
Posts: 526
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:14 am 
 

To be honest, the majority of the comics in my collection are classic Marvel issues. I have a slight obsession with the old-school horror and giant monster comics from the 50s & 60s
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SuperVeji4
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:33 pm
Posts: 590
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:35 pm 
 

It's safe to assume that most of us have read the comic book series Watchmen, and because of that I feel this is probably a good place to ask this question, a question on something that has been bothering me about the ending for a while. To stay on the safe side however, I have to write this with a spoiler tag.

Spoiler: show
Why does Dr. Manhattan kill Rorschach? Sure it could be easily explained that it's because Rorschach was gonna ruin the "utopia" of the world and Dr. Manhattan wanted to stop that from happening. But with his immense powers, why couldn't Dr. Manhattan just contain Rorschach or erase his memory of the knowledge of Ozymandias's plot? The only answer to this is that Dr. Manhattan knows that Rorschach would not want his mind to be messed with, and instead would rather be killed. So Dr. Manhattan kills him in order to respect his wishes. But it is strongly hinted at the end that the existence of Rorschach's journal would reveal Ozymandias's plot to the world, and therefore would undo everything. Though the ending kind of leaves this part open to interpretation, it's kind of hard to ignore Dr. Manhattan's mysterious last words, "Nothing ends Adrian, nothing ever ends." If that is the case, then it completely cancels out the reason for Dr. Manhattan to kill Rorschach, for the plot would be undone whether Rorschach is alive or not. Thus making Rorschach's death unnecessary. So why did he have to kill him?


I seriously would want someone to tell me their thoughts on this. I've read many analysis and supplementary readings, but none of them have answered this problem.

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marktheviktor
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:41 am
Posts: 6883
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:40 am 
 

Didn't Overkill put out some sort of promotional comic book a couple years ago?

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ForNaught
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:37 pm
Posts: 1193
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:28 pm 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
It's safe to assume that most of us have read the comic book series Watchmen, and because of that I feel this is probably a good place to ask this question, a question on something that has been bothering me about the ending for a while. To stay on the safe side however, I have to write this with a spoiler tag.

Spoiler: show
Why does Dr. Manhattan kill Rorschach? Sure it could be easily explained that it's because Rorschach was gonna ruin the "utopia" of the world and Dr. Manhattan wanted to stop that from happening. But with his immense powers, why couldn't Dr. Manhattan just contain Rorschach or erase his memory of the knowledge of Ozymandias's plot? The only answer to this is that Dr. Manhattan knows that Rorschach would not want his mind to be messed with, and instead would rather be killed. So Dr. Manhattan kills him in order to respect his wishes. But it is strongly hinted at the end that the existence of Rorschach's journal would reveal Ozymandias's plot to the world, and therefore would undo everything. Though the ending kind of leaves this part open to interpretation, it's kind of hard to ignore Dr. Manhattan's mysterious last words, "Nothing ends Adrian, nothing ever ends." If that is the case, then it completely cancels out the reason for Dr. Manhattan to kill Rorschach, for the plot would be undone whether Rorschach is alive or not. Thus making Rorschach's death unnecessary. So why did he have to kill him?


I seriously would want someone to tell me their thoughts on this. I've read many analysis and supplementary readings, but none of them have answered this problem.


I am of the opinion that that scene was:

Spoiler: show
a mercy killing. He didn't have to kill him, it didn't really make any difference either way as you've said. But Roschach's deathwish peaked with the revelation of what Adrian did. Because he sees the world in strictly black and white terms and never compromises it's obvious to him that he can't be complicit in covering it up. But this does place him under immense strain, obviously. So he... starts trying to walk home. From Antartica. With no warm gear on. The owlship is not exactly in good working order at this point, and it's unlikely that he has the expertise to fix it anyway. In other words, he has begun a process of what will probably turn out to be slow suicide while technically staying true to his ideals. Jon just made it quick and painless, and in a manner that lets Rorschach save face.

As for Manhattan's last words, I think he was just toying with Adrian! Applying a bit of a mindscrew. Additionally he was pretty much just stating a theme of the book outright. Poetic in a way, but I don't this scene really sheds any light on Roschach's death.


What do you think? Also, isn't it fun trying to puzzle out the various conundrums of ethics and behaviour Watchmen presents?
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Necroticism174
Kite String Popper

Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:46 pm
Posts: 4850
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:44 pm 
 

Batman is the greatest of all superheroes.This is not arguable.
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Xlxlx
May contain traces of nuts

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 5199
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:55 pm 
 

Necroticism174 wrote:
Batman is the greatest of all superheroes.This is not arguable.

You're wrong. That title belongs Spawn. Well, more anti-hero than superhero, but eh.....
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GuntherTheUndying
Crimson King, Eater of Worlds

Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:36 pm
Posts: 2519
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:56 pm 
 

I hate Spawn. The first few arcs are pretty damn awesome, but the series has become so much of a clusterfuck that I really don't care.
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Xlxlx
May contain traces of nuts

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 5199
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:58 pm 
 

I actually care very little for actual comics, but I really enjoy reading about the mythology sorrounding them and the characters that appear in them. I only truly liked comics for a brief period of time when I was a kiddo.

And Gunther, you should watch the animated series based on Spawn that was done for HBO some years ago. It was insanely cool, and it did much more justice to the character than that horrendous movie..... Also, it only covers the early arcs, as it got canceled later :(
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THESE GILLS BREATHE HATERADE

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GuntherTheUndying
Crimson King, Eater of Worlds

Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:36 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:01 pm 
 

Oh yea, I watched the animated series....really damn awesome stuff!
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Ismetal wrote:
GuntherTheUndying IS THE GAY NUMBER 1, HE DOESNT LIKE TO READ THE TRUTH, SO I THINK THIS PAGE IS FOR GAYS WHO WANTS TO READ MESSAGES LIKE "I LOVE MY BAND", "THEY ARE MY LOVE"

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Xlxlx
May contain traces of nuts

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 5199
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:04 pm 
 

I just wish Billy Kincaid would've died like in the comics. Getting stabbed to death with popsickle sticks and hung by chains is much better than just getting shot in the head by Clown.
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THESE GILLS BREATHE HATERADE

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GuntherTheUndying
Crimson King, Eater of Worlds

Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:36 pm
Posts: 2519
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:08 pm 
 

Yea that's one of the most memorable Spawn moments ever.

"He made children scream, so I made him scream, and scream, and scream, and scream..."
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Ismetal wrote:
GuntherTheUndying IS THE GAY NUMBER 1, HE DOESNT LIKE TO READ THE TRUTH, SO I THINK THIS PAGE IS FOR GAYS WHO WANTS TO READ MESSAGES LIKE "I LOVE MY BAND", "THEY ARE MY LOVE"

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Xlxlx
May contain traces of nuts

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 5199
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:13 pm 
 

Yeah, Spawn really went for an overkill with that guy. The fat bastard deserved it, though.
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4630
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:32 pm 
 

Necroticism174 wrote:
Batman is the greatest of all superheroes.This is not arguable.

Not a big Batman fan. In fact, I greatly prefer his ersatz Marvel counterpart Moon Knight. Or even his ersatz Ultimate Marvel counterpart Hawk-Owl. Or even his ersatz Marvel MAX counterpart Nighthawk.

Marvel has way more interesting takes on Batman than DC!
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Xlxlx
May contain traces of nuts

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:39 pm 
 

Moon Knight is officially better than Batman because Batman doesn't cut people's faces off to wear them like masks.
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ForNaught
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:37 pm
Posts: 1193
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:59 am 
 

I prefer the Moon Roach. Is... is that wrong?
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4630
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:40 pm 
 

No, the Moon Roach is a perfectly valid AU version of the character. Quite well developed.
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MacMoney
Man of the Cloth

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 10:17 pm
Posts: 1930
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:54 pm 
 

ForNaught wrote:
I prefer the Moon Roach. Is... is that wrong?


Yes, yes, it is. Now hold tight and keep your hands on the keyboard while the Comics Police will enter your apartment and beat you to death. You will recognize them by their Judge-uniforms.

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kingnuuuur
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:35 pm
Posts: 2120
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:13 pm 
 

Jean "Moebius" Giraud, one of the most well-known and internationally recognized French comic artists, has died yesterday.

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oogboog
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 864
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:14 pm 
 

I have a question about the position of Wolverine's claws.

Spoiler: show
Sometimes in the comics I have seen them as parallel, and sometimes I have seen the outer two fan out slightly (seems to be the case in the movies). The overall shape does also seem to change among the writers and illustrators.

It's just that I wonder if this is some kind of inconsistency.
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4630
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:47 pm 
 

It's as much an inconsistency as characters' build and facial structure changing over time. It's just the dis-continuity of being drawn by so many artists over time in so many styles. The thing is that there is no truly "orthodox" way to draw virtually any comic book character so there's no right or wrong answer here.

It's just a feature of comic book art. Likely a cultural thing, as much as an accidental thing. Compare to animated shows, for example, where proportions and shapes are generally strictly maintained through entire runs (nowadays with the aid of computers). It's just what is considered normal.
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somefella
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 2447
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:51 am 
 

Anyone else a huge fan of the Fear Itself event? I was totally blown away by the awesomeness despite being an avid Marvel fan for over a decade.

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anarchoXsavagist
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:30 pm
Posts: 5
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:35 pm 
 

Allan Moore's "Swamp Thing". That's my favorite stuff.

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Necroticism174
Kite String Popper

Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:46 pm
Posts: 4850
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:22 pm 
 

Yeah Swamp Thing is awesome. Always loved the original series too. I just finished reading The Dark Knight returns. What an amazing graphic novel.
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Metalfuckingrules
The Ralph Wiggum Monologue

Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Posts: 380
Location: Buried somewhere....
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:10 pm 
 

Necroticism174 wrote:
Batman is the greatest of all superheroes.This is not arguable.

^This.

Even though don't read Comic Books like I used to, Batman is the epitome of how people can still be a superhero without having any sort of super powers.

And speaking of Comic Books, I was hoping of getting back into reading Comic Books. Can anyone here tell me which comic series is good to start of with (besides Spider-man, X-men, Batman)?
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4630
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:01 am 
 

Yeah, yeah, sure. Moon Knight goes it without powers all the time and nobody cares. Unless you consider schizophrenia a super power.
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Anubis
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 4:25 pm
Posts: 456
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:44 am 
 

If you like comics at all, check out these:

Grant Morrison (Granted, a big name, but with a deep and varied catalogue)
Warren Ellis in general. He has his slip ups, but is untouchable when he's on.
Ted McKeever is a fucking genius. Check out Meta4.
Peter Milligan has a knack for making the esoteric work in a mainstream setting.
Elephantmen is a blast. Richard Starkings makes a good Sci-Fi book.
Alexandro Jodorowsky, specifically Metabarons and The Incal.

Fuck Marvel, for the most part, as well as Stan Lee and his "Marvel Method." Must be great to make a mountain of money on the back of his artists, most of whom lived and died in poverty. Check out Gary Freidrich. Fucking ridiculous.
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TheUglySoldier
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 3:44 am
Posts: 1662
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:31 am 
 

Anubis wrote:
Fuck Marvel, for the most part, as well as Stan Lee and his "Marvel Method." Must be great to make a mountain of money on the back of his artists, most of whom lived and died in poverty.


Maybe I haven't done enough research on the topic, but from what I can gleam a lot of the angst against Stan Lee comes out of thin air.

As for your problem with the Marvel Method, what do you mean by this? It is simply another method of writing and drawing comics.
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Anubis
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 4:25 pm
Posts: 456
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:15 pm 
 

My issue with the Marvel Method is that it completely undercuts a fundamental half of the construction of a comic. Don't get me wrong, guys like Kirby and Ditko, both of which had to work in, and flourished within the MM, were great visual storytellers, but it limits the medium and undercuts the form all together when the writer is just plugging in whatever fits after the fact.

Also, Stan Lee used to have offices full of artists who would work doubly hard, and often above that, to get comics out, so that he could throw in whatever dialogue and exposition he felt fit. He didn't work nearly as hard as anyone else on his creative team, but let them starve, sometimes literally, while he raked in money. I understand a successful business, but the mere fact that comics had to develop what functions as a welfare system just for comic artists and writers is a fucking travesty. DC is no more innocent, but the fact that Stan Lee continues to profit is what bothers me so much. It took whole generations of writers to actually introduce coherent and challenging storytelling into Marvel Comics, and if not for writers like John Buscema, Jim Starlin and Chris Claremont, shit never would have gotten better.
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LeMetalNoire
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:17 am
Posts: 18
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:44 pm 
 

Necroticism174 wrote:
Batman is the greatest of all superheroes.This is not arguable.



I'm a batman fan......But if it was Batman verses Ironman.....money against money..... gadgets against gadgets....I lean towards Ironman dominating....not saying he would win but *shrugs*
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