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FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:01 pm 
 

Hey guys I'm having a problem with my guitar tone. I simply can't get the sound I want out of my guitar and my equipment.

GEAR:

-Gibson SG Special with Dean Markley strings
-Line 6 Spyder III Solid State 30 Watt amplifier
-Line 6 FBV Express Multi effects pedal (it's basically just a switchboard for the different distortion levels on my amp, but also with a volume control/wah pedal attached. I'm assuming it's designed for Line 6's only)

I've been playing around with the settings on my amp for the past while, and I'm frustrated with the tone I'm getting. No matter what I do, be it decreasing the bass tones and turning up the treble or whatnot, I always seem to be getting this muddy "crackly" (but not as if there's a problem with the amp) overtone that resembles Weedeater (you know how they have that ultra thick, murky and crackly tone. It's perfect for what they're playing, but I don't want my guitar to sound anywhere close to that), and this overtone is present no matter what settings my amp is using (except of course when there's no distortion).

My band plays a mix of black metal, sludge, doom, and groove with melody as well. I guess you can say that with my tone I'm trying to aim towards something similar to the sound of Sargeist's "Let The Devil In", Cirith Gorgor's self titled, Enthroned's "Pentagrammaton", Emperor's "Prometheus" (or any of Ihsahn's solo material for that matter), recent Enslaved material, Shining's last 2 albums, Taake's "Noregs Vaapen", Wolves In The Throne Room's "Two Hunters"...

Basically I'm trying to go for a sound that has quite a bit of distortion but without the muddiness and crackling sound that I have now. Obviously you still want some grittiness in the tone, if it were too clean it wouldn't sound like metal at all but I don't want my guitar to sound like it's muffled, murky and was dragged through a pool of shit (literally. No offense Shep).

What should I do? Is there a way I can adjust the amp I have to get a better sound?

Should I get a new amp? If so, what kind? (I'd also like to try to get something with a nice full clean sound, like Fender amps have)

Should I try some different pedals?

New strings?

What should I do?

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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
Posts: 1488
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:30 pm 
 

I'm going to be honest with you. I've own the 75 w version of that amp and it just wasn't good enough.
I'd recommend you try to trade/sell it and get another amp. Try Vox Valvetronix. Those amps are very versatile and if you don't want a half stack and just a small combo those are worth the price!

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dethmetal
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:58 pm
Posts: 24
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:40 pm 
 

It's the amp, dude. I've played on both the 75 watt version and the one you're using. The 75 one is good enough, but anything lower than that is just terrible. Save up for a new amp.

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Hermit Hill
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:19 pm
Posts: 48
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:42 pm 
 

I have heard bad things about that amp (line 6) but I'm not knowledgeable enough on the matter to make any suggestions.

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FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:20 pm 
 

Porman wrote:
I'm going to be honest with you. I've own the 75 w version of that amp and it just wasn't good enough.
I'd recommend you try to trade/sell it and get another amp. Try Vox Valvetronix. Those amps are very versatile and if you don't want a half stack and just a small combo those are worth the price!


I may, although I remembered that one of my friends has a Vox and I didn't like the sound of it that much. Obviously it could have been the settings he had it on, but being said I'm a little iffy on that. I've heard some audio samples though and it sounds pretty sweet, especially the clean tones, but I'd probably want to try one out on my guitar beforehand. Plus if I get a vox I'd most likely have to get a new pedal as well (it's stupid how mine only works with line 6's -_-)

Thanks for your input though, I'll consider. To whoever else sees this thread, PLEASE I still want opinions.

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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
Posts: 1488
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:24 am 
 

Well, what can you afford and does it have to be a combo? Solid state or tube?

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somefella
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 2458
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:48 am 
 

FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:
Porman wrote:
I'm going to be honest with you. I've own the 75 w version of that amp and it just wasn't good enough.
I'd recommend you try to trade/sell it and get another amp. Try Vox Valvetronix. Those amps are very versatile and if you don't want a half stack and just a small combo those are worth the price!


I may, although I remembered that one of my friends has a Vox and I didn't like the sound of it that much. Obviously it could have been the settings he had it on, but being said I'm a little iffy on that. I've heard some audio samples though and it sounds pretty sweet, especially the clean tones, but I'd probably want to try one out on my guitar beforehand. Plus if I get a vox I'd most likely have to get a new pedal as well (it's stupid how mine only works with line 6's -_-)

Thanks for your input though, I'll consider. To whoever else sees this thread, PLEASE I still want opinions.


This might be a better idea, since Vox amps take pedals pretty well, without discolouring the tone or anything. Vox digital models sound a hell of a lot better than Line 6, but that's just me.

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FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:18 pm 
 

Porman wrote:
Well, what can you afford and does it have to be a combo? Solid state or tube?


It depends on really what I can get, I know tube amps can get a lot more expensive and I'm not exactly made of money so I may not be able to afford. I think the most I'd be willing to spend right now (obviously more later on afterwards) is around the $500 level, so it looks like simply a better solid state might be what I should try. If there are any tube amps though around that price that'd be cool, from what I know tube amps just sound a hell of a lot better.

By combo, do you mean amp + pedal or a small stack? If it is amp + pedal and ends up being a different brand that I choose then I would probably need a combo so I can switch easily between settings, as the pedal I have now is for Line 6's only. II'd want to be able to switch between at least 3 settings, if that helps narrow it down.

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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4704
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:40 pm 
 

Those amps are nearly impossible to work with. I have used one a lot though, since a friend has one and using it was preferable to lugging around my amp. I believe the model you listed has the digital selectors with a little one line display.

The countless digitalized amp sims make it really hard to find one thing that sounds alright to work with. Once you bump the "amp models" knob, which has 12 settings, you need to reset the amp by flipping off the current digital sim and then back to it.

Start with preset "Bumblefoot 1". I think the other ones I had success with were "FFAF UK" and maybe the Vertical Horizon one. The Bumblefoot sound is thinner than the FFAF sound, so better for black metal.

Keep both effects knobs + reverb @ 0
Channel volume @ 10
Bass @ 5-7
Mid @ 4-5
Treble @ 7-10
Drive @ 7-10

That should give you something close to what you're looking for.

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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
Posts: 1488
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:53 pm 
 

You get a lot for 500 bucks, combowise.

I suggest that you visit a local music shop and try out the different brands that they have. Bring your own guitar if possible.

A classic is the Peavey Bandit. But I think that one is still only a two channel amp.

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FearlessUndeadMachines
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:57 am
Posts: 77
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:50 pm 
 

I've also owned and used the 75 watt Spider combo. They can be a really great budget amp for bedroom recording and daily practice (the Peavey Vypyr occupys a similar niche imo).

But I found them to generally be not well suited for band / live work. When you push them, bad things start to happen. When they run hot, the tone starts to kind of fall apart. In a band I currently play in, the other guitarist (who is quite good) managed to fry his Spider head. I'm letting him borrow a solid state Randall RX120RH head, and it seems to be performing a lot better for him.

Check out Randall. They make a wide variety of affordable, loud, great-sounding, solid state amps - combos, heads, cabs - that seem to be pretty much designed for metal.

Keep the Spider for practice / warmups!

Or do what I did and trade your Spider for a used laptop! :-D

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FearlessUndeadMachines
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:57 am
Posts: 77
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:11 pm 
 

Porman wrote:
A classic is the Peavey Bandit.


I love those amps, they scream.

Also, I'm under the impression that the Brazilian thrash band Violator http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Violator/5123 has used them. The guitar tone on Chemical Assault is pretty damn good in my opinion, especially considering we're talking about a $350 amp.

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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
Posts: 1488
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:13 pm 
 

I've read that Emperor used it on In the Nightside. Sotiris from Septic Flesh told me that he recorded his guitars on their earlier albums on a Bandit.

Definitely worth their money for being a solid state combo. I own the really old one, without TransTube, but the newer ones are probably good as well.

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FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:07 pm 
 

Porman wrote:
I've read that Emperor used it on In the Nightside. Sotiris from Septic Flesh told me that he recorded his guitars on their earlier albums on a Bandit.

Definitely worth their money for being a solid state combo. I own the really old one, without TransTube, but the newer ones are probably good as well.


Used on Nightside eh? Sounds pretty legit then, but I still want to check that out for myself.

FearlessUndeadMachines wrote:
I've also owned and used the 75 watt Spider combo. They can be a really great budget amp for bedroom recording and daily practice (the Peavey Vypyr occupys a similar niche imo).

But I found them to generally be not well suited for band / live work. When you push them, bad things start to happen. When they run hot, the tone starts to kind of fall apart. In a band I currently play in, the other guitarist (who is quite good) managed to fry his Spider head. I'm letting him borrow a solid state Randall RX120RH head, and it seems to be performing a lot better for him.

Check out Randall. They make a wide variety of affordable, loud, great-sounding, solid state amps - combos, heads, cabs - that seem to be pretty much designed for metal.

Keep the Spider for practice / warmups!

Or do what I did and trade your Spider for a used laptop! :-D


I've heard of the Peavey Vypyr as well, I've heard good things, and I've heard Randall amps are good too. Thanks for the input, I'll take a look into those.

To everyone else, still send in suggestions. The more opinions the better

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Chainsaw Omega
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:43 pm
Posts: 98
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:52 pm 
 

For a $500 budget, here are my suggestions.


1. Peavey Valveking 100w head
Any cab

Some people will say the Valveking sucks, but for an introduction into Tube heads, it is a highly affordable and pretty good sounding option. IT is not as distinguishable or a tone as the 5150(6505), but it still sounds great, especially compared to what you are using. Craigslist that shit and get rocking.

2. JCM 900 combo

I'm looking at one right now for $550 OBO on Craigslist so yes, this is possible to get. And really, the JCM 900 is some end-game level quality stuff. If you find that the distortion isn't beefy enough for you(which is should be), then pick up an Ibanez Tube screamer or one of the countless other copies of it.

3. Marshall AVT head
Marshall AVT cab(or anything in the price range)

The AVT also suffers from a reputation of "not sound as good as a JCM 800," and I think that is a pretty naive way to look at it. Of course it doesn't sound as good as the high-end Marshalls, and thats why a JCM 800 costs $1800 and this can be picked up used for $200. It does sound good though, especially for the price. It was good enough for Chuck Shuldiner. He used this setup on The Sound of Perseverance, so that album would be a good place to look to for what this thing's characteristics are. A lot of bite and sizzle. For the price range, very good stuff.

Any of those options are good. For what you are going for, you really don't need a whole lot of distortion. The tones on stuff like new Enslaved and later Emperor are a lot more organic than you think. Ihsahn starting fucking about with all kinds of effects and whatnot over the past 10 years, but I think a lot of it is all to get back to sounds that you can really get pretty effortless anyway. Marshall is also the best bet for what you want. They generally have brighter characteristics than other amps, so getting those good black metal chords to ring out and all the trem-picked stuff will be a lot brighter than say a Peavey 5150 or a Mesa Dual Rec.

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FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:04 am 
 

Chainsaw Omega wrote:
For a $500 budget, here are my suggestions.


1. Peavey Valveking 100w head
Any cab

Some people will say the Valveking sucks, but for an introduction into Tube heads, it is a highly affordable and pretty good sounding option. IT is not as distinguishable or a tone as the 5150(6505), but it still sounds great, especially compared to what you are using. Craigslist that shit and get rocking.

2. JCM 900 combo

I'm looking at one right now for $550 OBO on Craigslist so yes, this is possible to get. And really, the JCM 900 is some end-game level quality stuff. If you find that the distortion isn't beefy enough for you(which is should be), then pick up an Ibanez Tube screamer or one of the countless other copies of it.

3. Marshall AVT head
Marshall AVT cab(or anything in the price range)

The AVT also suffers from a reputation of "not sound as good as a JCM 800," and I think that is a pretty naive way to look at it. Of course it doesn't sound as good as the high-end Marshalls, and thats why a JCM 800 costs $1800 and this can be picked up used for $200. It does sound good though, especially for the price. It was good enough for Chuck Shuldiner. He used this setup on The Sound of Perseverance, so that album would be a good place to look to for what this thing's characteristics are. A lot of bite and sizzle. For the price range, very good stuff.

Any of those options are good. For what you are going for, you really don't need a whole lot of distortion. The tones on stuff like new Enslaved and later Emperor are a lot more organic than you think. Ihsahn starting fucking about with all kinds of effects and whatnot over the past 10 years, but I think a lot of it is all to get back to sounds that you can really get pretty effortless anyway. Marshall is also the best bet for what you want. They generally have brighter characteristics than other amps, so getting those good black metal chords to ring out and all the trem-picked stuff will be a lot brighter than say a Peavey 5150 or a Mesa Dual Rec.


So basically what you're saying is that while all the options are good, I should try to go for the Marshall? I'll take a look into that then. I'm still going to give a good try on a bunch of types, but I'll consider what you said and what sounds good. I never really gave it much thought that I might be wanting less distortion. I guess I just assumed that with black metal you constantly had constant fuzz. Would you say that about all the examples of what I was going for, like the Taake or Cirith Gorgor for example?

Also, what would you suggest a good pedal would be to go along with it? What I'm using now is basically just a switchboard/control panel to go between amp settings and might have a few extra gizmos of it's own?

Also, what's the clean sound like on Marshalls? I'm looking for something that has a very warm clean sound, something very full and not so twangy sounding, but I can still get different sounds if needed

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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4704
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:11 pm 
 

If you're tight on budget for an amp, don't spend anything on pedals. The general consensus around here seems to be against recommending pedals for tone, I certainly agree with this.

You can probably find a used Peavey 5150 head for $500-600, they're durable as hell, have plenty of distortion, and quite versatile. That doesn't leave any budget for a cabinet, but the 5150 is great for plenty of reasons - there are also a ton of them around, so it shouldn't be too difficult to find one. I strongly prefer Peavey over Marshall.

If you want black metal fuzz, don't go for a pedal. Rather than recording with the amp EQ set to 5/5/5 or 6/4/6, turn up the treble and/or put a secondary microphone at the edge of the speaker. You can also emphasize it further in mixing.

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FearlessUndeadMachines
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:57 am
Posts: 77
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:19 pm 
 

Chainsaw Omega wrote:
1. Peavey Valveking 100w head
Any cab


I had a ValveKing head. Although I eventually sold it and put the money towards a JSX head, my experiences with the ValveKing were extremely favorable, and since then, I've seen / heard them used by other players, and my assessment of the ValveKing is that they are a great sounding, no-nonsense tube amp with plenty of gain and power. Great amps for the money.

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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4704
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:40 pm 
 

FearlessUndeadMachines wrote:
I had a ValveKing head. Although I eventually sold it and put the money towards a JSX head, my experiences with the ValveKing were extremely favorable, and since then, I've seen / heard them used by other players, and my assessment of the ValveKing is that they are a great sounding, no-nonsense tube amp with plenty of gain and power. Great amps for the money.


Could you describe it a bit, possibly in comparison to other amps? Does it have the crunch of a 5150?

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Chainsaw Omega
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:43 pm
Posts: 98
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:26 pm 
 

The ValveKing does NOT have the crunch of the 5150, though it does have all the characteristics you'd expect from a Peavey: Warm, think lows, with plenty of head room. Peavey will always bee good for high volume, high gain music.

Just refreshed myself on Taake(which is good, the new stuff is pretty killer), and my assessment stands. They have a pretty clean sound. Again, very Marshall sounding. Look into a Marshall, and if you can, shell out the extra cash for a tube amp. I went from playing on a Valvestate head to a JCM 2000 and the difference is night and day.

Cleans on a Marshall are fantastic. Though we really don't play clean with my band, I have played around with clean stuff on both my amp and my other guitarist's head(A Peavey ValveKing), and hands down, the Marshall sounds better clean.

As for pedals, for what you want, you dont need anything. Pedals color your tone a lot, and the amp distortion is more than enough. As a metal guitarist, my first instinct was always "MORE DISTORTION." However, once I sat down and really started to try and replicate the sounds I was going for, spending hours dialing in tones, generally, I wound up taking things away, ESPECIALLY with black metal. You have to remember, one of the sonic foundations of black metal is minimalism. This applies not only to the riffing, but to the whole production, including gear. Darkthrone is a good example of all types. their classic period was basically crappy solid-state amps with a ton of treble and the gain maxed. Thats why it has that fuzz. Mid-period is more gain, but with a marked improvement in sound, probably because Nocturno shelled out the cahs for a tube head. New Darkthrone I have absolutely matched the tone, and it is the distortion channel 1, not the high-gain channel, with not a lot of gain, and some more toned back EQ.

Though much different stylistically than what you are going for, the guitar tone is very similar. A lot of what an amp sounds like is all in how you play it.

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CF_Mono
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:21 pm
Posts: 1303
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:50 pm 
 

Porman wrote:
I'm going to be honest with you. I've own the 75 w version of that amp and it just wasn't good enough.
I'd recommend you try to trade/sell it and get another amp. Try Vox Valvetronix. Those amps are very versatile and if you don't want a half stack and just a small combo those are worth the price!

This. I just bought one a month ago. Couldn't be happier. I've never owned a spider amp but word on the street is they're a huge ripoff.
_________________
Some of my own metal

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FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:21 am 
 

Chainsaw Omega wrote:
Just refreshed myself on Taake(which is good, the new stuff is pretty killer), and my assessment stands. They have a pretty clean sound. Again, very Marshall sounding. Look into a Marshall, and if you can, shell out the extra cash for a tube amp. I went from playing on a Valvestate head to a JCM 2000 and the difference is night and day.

Cleans on a Marshall are fantastic. Though we really don't play clean with my band, I have played around with clean stuff on both my amp and my other guitarist's head(A Peavey ValveKing), and hands down, the Marshall sounds better clean.

As for pedals, for what you want, you dont need anything. Pedals color your tone a lot, and the amp distortion is more than enough. As a metal guitarist, my first instinct was always "MORE DISTORTION." However, once I sat down and really started to try and replicate the sounds I was going for, spending hours dialing in tones, generally, I wound up taking things away, ESPECIALLY with black metal. You have to remember, one of the sonic foundations of black metal is minimalism. This applies not only to the riffing, but to the whole production, including gear. Darkthrone is a good example of all types. their classic period was basically crappy solid-state amps with a ton of treble and the gain maxed. Thats why it has that fuzz. Mid-period is more gain, but with a marked improvement in sound, probably because Nocturno shelled out the cahs for a tube head. New Darkthrone I have absolutely matched the tone, and it is the distortion channel 1, not the high-gain channel, with not a lot of gain, and some more toned back EQ.

Though much different stylistically than what you are going for, the guitar tone is very similar. A lot of what an amp sounds like is all in how you play it.


Haha ya the new album is amazing. I must get it!

Good to know that the clean tones are nice, I also have problems with the clean tones on my amp right now. Get two birds with one stone.

I never really gave that much consideration actually, my instinct was also to have as much distortion as possible. I still like having a lot of distortion because it goes well with what I play, but I'll see what types of sounds I can get with less. In terms of pedals, would the amp I buy come with some sort of foot mechanism to switch between channels? (I'm not that experienced with buying amps, I bought this one off of our former guitarist, the pedal/amp combo for $100) Because if it did that would be great, it'll be difficult to play a song and have to take a hand off the guitar to switch channels.

I also remembered that my dad has an extra Crybaby Wah pedal lying around, I'm assuming that it wouldn't hurt if I used that to help out with some soloing and stuff.

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FearlessUndeadMachines
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:57 am
Posts: 77
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:15 am 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
FearlessUndeadMachines wrote:
I had a ValveKing head. Although I eventually sold it and put the money towards a JSX head, my experiences with the ValveKing were extremely favorable, and since then, I've seen / heard them used by other players, and my assessment of the ValveKing is that they are a great sounding, no-nonsense tube amp with plenty of gain and power. Great amps for the money.


Could you describe it a bit, possibly in comparison to other amps? Does it have the crunch of a 5150?


I can compare it to a JSX, since I sold my ValveKing and put the money towards a JSX: the Valveking kind of reminded me of some of the older Mesa Boogie amps I've heard. It was a very mean, aggressive, fuzzy, American distortion, indicative of a modified Fender, powered by 6L6 power tubes. The JSX, which I still have, is powered by EL34s, and has a more British, Marshall-esque, pretty, even-ordered, harmonic type of distortion.

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FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:02 pm 
 

By the way to all that are just seeing this thread now, keep posting your thoughts about what I should do! The more opinions I can get the better

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