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americanholocaust
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:38 pm
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Location: FUCK YEA!!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:24 am 
 

I was just curious if anyone could give any solid tips on getting a heavy, crunchy doom/death metal tone, in the vein of Incantation, Cianide, Morpheus Descends, Benediction. We are having trouble finding a good sound, I think it is partly due to the acoustics of the room we are playing, which we are working on, but also because we just can't seem to get the right mix on the guitar. It comes out too trebled, and with not alot of body. It just sounds sort of flat. I would figure a good death metal tone would need more mids and lows than anything, but I may be totally wrong. I know alot of guitarists don't like to show their hand too much, which is totally understandable if you have found the perfect sound, but any advice would be great.

The equipment being used or available is:
Jackson Warrior in C tuning (emg 60 pickups)
Marshall JCM800 2203
Dunlop M135 Mxr Smart Gate pedal
DOD FX86B Death Metal pedal
Boss M2 Metalzone pedal

I just wanted to note that I am the drummer (I know jack shit about guitars), and we are pretty much doing whatever we can to find a better sound for the guitar. A good tone that can be sustained at a high volume is what we are looking for, but the integrity of the sound is lessened when the volume gets turned up. I know experimentation is how people get the perfect tone, we are just looking for a few pointers. If you have any questions, I will answer them to the best of my ability. Thanks in advance.
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:29 am 
 

do not use the death metal pedal or m2 pedal they destroy anything that's considered a good tone.

tune the warrior down to A standard cause just about all the bands you meantioned tuned lower than C. use the head distorion on the marshal and don't sweep out the fucking mids. go for something similar to from low to high 8 6 5. I can't say exactly mainly since I'm not there to mess around with it.

anything I've done I've used amp distortion

like these for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svXV89gN6Zc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw1cYCzj6WI

tuned to A standard using a Jackson Warrior and a Dean V.
Ampeg SS150 head using the distortion on it.
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americanholocaust
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:39 am 
 

If it is tuned down to A would it still be possible to do leads?
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:51 am 
 

Yes it's totally possible. get you some nice thicker strings. you won't even notice it's tuned down since the tension will be still the appropriate amount.
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Araucaria
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:39 am
Posts: 35
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:17 am 
 

JCM800's are not the highest gain of amps, so the regular head distortion won't be sufficient for what your looking for. I would recommend ditching those pedals and put a tubescreamer (TS9, or TS808) in front of it, tightens and thickens the tone. If that tone isn't what your looking for, try and find an old Rat, they can give you a huge bottom end. Also depending on the cabinet your using those amps tend to be bright, I generally set mine with treble on 4, mids 4, bass maxed, and presence on 0.

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americanholocaust
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:43 pm 
 

The amp is really nice, I think it would definitely be possible to get a good tone, there is just alot of tweeking to be done..
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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2451
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:44 am 
 

I'll ask for something similar: I'm recording some death metal songs tuned in C standard. I don't have a pedal or a guitar amp (I'm more a bassist and drummer) but I have Peavey Revalver mkIII vst, which features many amps, like the 6505+ and it has a very good simulation of JCM800. The emulations seems to be very realistic but I can't configure a really heavy/fat tone with it.

I would love to have a similar tone in character/heaviness (not quite the same) than last Disma or Incantation's Ownward to Golgotha.

I'm aware that the final tone will result of eq, - maybe - compression, mixing/mastering + the bass + the guitar + my way of playing but I want to have a good tone to start. I did a demo-like song which I posted here for references (I used the 'acm 900'amp http://www.goear.com/listen/597f855/maqueta-1-ren).

I can load on it some other vst's like a tubescreamer or stuff like that. I have some Engl, orange, many Peavey and Marshall impulses too. Oh, and I use a very old Epiphone Les Paul with Bill Lawrence pickups.

Thanx in advance for any advice.
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Mysticaloldbard
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:10 pm
Posts: 1248
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:56 pm 
 

You know, I've tried tabbing out some Disma and I had to tune down to A, I don't think you could achieve a too similar tone with C standard tuning.
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:07 pm 
 

A is always the way to go with these sorts of bands. it's almost instantly you will sound like them
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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2451
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:18 pm 
 

Doesn't Suffocation and Cryptopsy (in None so Vile at least) plays in C? I mean, can I sound as heavy as those bands just in C? (I could buy a 7str- set and use those but for now I like the C).

I don't want to sound exactly like them, it's just as heavy as them in terms of overall sound (and I truly dislike modern production works with very few exceptions).

Thanx
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:47 pm 
 

I think Suffocation used to tune to A. Not sure about Cryptopsy.

I thought you said like similar to Disma and Incantation. The two you just listed don't sound like Disma or Incantation at all aside they use guitars and drums.
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http://www.cavepaints.com <--Horrid art and musics.
http://www.facebook.com/MaulerCustomCabs <--- huge heavy/loud boxes I build.
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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2451
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:10 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
I think Suffocation used to tune to A. Not sure about Cryptopsy.

I thought you said like similar to Disma and Incantation. The two you just listed don't sound like Disma or Incantation at all aside they use guitars and drums.


Not quite similar but both sound extremely heavy without using 8 string guitars or something. I just want to get a good tone, heavy, dark with an old school taste. Since I need to fix my guitar anyway, I'll take it to a luthier to repair the circuit, so I'll try the A tuning and I'll get my guitar calibrated in that tuning.
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:15 pm 
 

Yea they are very heavy but they play a different style totally. Just not the same tuning would be needed for something like that.

anyway yea give the A a shot. I swear you'll love it. Like I posted earlier in the thread... check the link if you want some proof of how good it sounds raw. A standard turning with an Ampeg SS150 head.
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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2451
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:26 pm 
 

I heard both songs... sounds great! and yes, that's pretty much what we want in terms of guitar sound.

Since I'll use the Peavey simulator I'll try to tweak it to get something similar, lot of bass (7), very little mid (2.3, since the Peavey has a shitload of mids) and 4-5 of highs I guess I'll get closer to it.

Thanx man and congrats, it's the Ep for purchase?
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:05 pm 
 

I'm glad you liked them both.
I'm not sure how the peavy settings would correspond to my ampeg's but mine is set bass-8 mid-6 high-5

the first song is from the first ep and I still have some to sell:
http://filtheater.bandcamp.com/album/caliginosity
the second one I no longer have any, there might be some distros that have it that are european but I think most of them are out of stock as well
http://filtheater.bandcamp.com/album/tenebrae

appreciate the compliment.
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americanholocaust
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:38 pm
Posts: 1983
Location: FUCK YEA!!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:53 am 
 

That Jcm800 just can't handle tuning down to A.. The head doesn't put out enough power, I guess. Could changing tubes help this, or is it hopeless?
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Vrede
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:07 pm
Posts: 752
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:28 am 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
I think Suffocation used to tune to A. Not sure about Cryptopsy.

They tuned to B standard (6 string guitars), at least until Unspoken King.
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:52 am 
 

Very cool. and on a side note Suffocation used AmpegSS150's early in their career.
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http://www.cavepaints.com <--Horrid art and musics.
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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
Posts: 1547
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:47 pm 
 

The more you downtune, the more you lose the natural harmonics of the guitar and strings and that's why you find it harder to get a good tone when you downtune to C (or below). I've played in D since the beginning and I find it just right.

Whatever you do, don't use a Metal Zone. The DOD Death Metal can achieve a pretty good sound, but there has to be a lot of tweaking and the treble set to zero!

I recommend a Metal Muff or a Boss HM2.

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:26 pm 
 

Completely disagree with not finding a good tone below C. Several of the other musicians I work with and talk with would also disagree.

It's harder for me to find a tone I like tuned in D.

and that DOD death metal pedal is pretty terrible and not worth the effort it would need to make it sound like anything good.
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http://www.cavepaints.com <--Horrid art and musics.
http://www.facebook.com/MaulerCustomCabs <--- huge heavy/loud boxes I build.
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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
Posts: 1547
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:13 pm 
 

I'm laying down the facts here. If you like me, like a simple setup with just a guitar and amp, then you might have a hard time to find a good tone if you downtune low. That's my experience at least. Then of course, it depends on what type of music you play. Fast and technical riffs might sound better if tuned higher, as the sound is way clearer.

But please run me through your setup. It's interesting to hear what other guitarists use.

Here's mine.

Jackson RR1 (tuned in D)
Boss Noise Supressor
Peavey 6505
Behringer Bugera slanted cab (can't remember which model)

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:53 pm 
 

I only use my amp and guitar. So that must be your experience and your guitar. Cause everyone who has came and jammed with me and used their own guitar properly strung up and tuned down have loved it.

here is my set up

for A one of these guitars:

Jackson Warrior, Dean V, Washburn whatever I really don't keep up with the actual names and styles.
Ampeg SS150
Krank Krankenstien Cab

That's it. So my set up is even more simple than yours. and I've played Slow crawling doom to techincal death metal with that set up and tuning.

I'm just laying down the facts here.
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http://www.cavepaints.com <--Horrid art and musics.
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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:12 am 
 

Whatever works for each one I guess.

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6561
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:05 am 
 

The most common problem people have with achieving extreme guitar tones is the pickups. It takes high output, and your stock Ibanez V7, let alone some stock singlecoil, might not do the job. DiMarzio and EMG manufacture some excellent, widely popular high-output pickups, basically designed for metal guitar tones.

I have:
- Ibanez RG1570 with, as of yet, stock pickups. They are shit, but I can't afford new ones yet.
- ENGL Screamer 50w combo. Some call this the worst ENGL of all, but it's mainly because of senseless design rather than sound (there are apparently some issues with capacitors being placed too close to the tubes, making the capacitors heat too much).
- I can achieve anything from rock to metal distortion, though nothing near brutal death metal or raw black metal level (for the latter, I have a pedal).
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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
Posts: 1547
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:23 am 
 

You can pretty much turn a medium price range guitar into a very great sounding guitar with just a better pickup. Don't overlook the second hand bin when shopping for pickups. Got me a pink (!) Seymour Duncan JBJ for just 300 SEK (which is about 30 Euro).

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wreath_of_coils
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:38 am
Posts: 493
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:04 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
Cause everyone who has came and jammed with me and used their own guitar properly strung up and tuned down have loved it.


I have to second that. The Ampeg SS150 sounds fucking beast. You can play the most back-to-basic riff and it sounds monolithic. And not only is the tone crushing but it's also loud as all fuck. I have to damn near sit on top of SLK's drumset just to hear him.

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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
Posts: 1547
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:19 pm 
 

How does that amp hold up to when playing in rehearsal, being solid state and all?
Most solids turn to mush when you drive the volume past the half mark and it's still not enough volume.

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kingnuuuur
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:35 pm
Posts: 2145
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:26 pm 
 

Don't be fooled by the solid state thing, the amp is fucking brutal and easily rivals the top dog tube ones. I still hit myself on the head for failing to buy one.

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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
Posts: 1547
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:44 pm 
 

I've never tried one. Always considered Ampeg a bass amp manufacturer. Obviously, I was wrong.
But what I wanna know is, how does it hold up volume-wise?

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kingnuuuur
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:35 pm
Posts: 2145
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:56 pm 
 

SLK once said that it's louder than his Sunn Enforcer.

Louder than the Sunn Enforcer... Sorry, I thought that was worth repeating. :P

But yeah, it has to be extremely loud.

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wreath_of_coils
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:38 am
Posts: 493
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:00 pm 
 

Porman wrote:
I've never tried one. Always considered Ampeg a bass amp manufacturer. Obviously, I was wrong.


Yeah, they have a few amps that are highly revered. The SS 150 and VH-140c among others.

kingnuuuur wrote:
But yeah, it has to be extremely loud.


It is.

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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
Posts: 1547
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:25 pm 
 

Too bad that they aren't that easy to come by. And it's not like I want to buy one over the net, without trying it first.

Maybe Behringer will manufacture some clones in the future, if they already haven't.

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 12172
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:57 am 
 

Yea pretty much what king and wreath said. Wreath has heard it first hand and it's not even on 10. I normally run it on 8. and if I play both the Sunn and the Ampeg cranked all the way up on the same amps... the Ampeg is louder than my Sunn... to the point it drowns it out.

Yea they aren't always easy to come by cause so many people love the sound which is why when one comes up for sale I purchase it. I have 3 SS150's and 2 SS140's
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http://www.cavepaints.com <--Horrid art and musics.
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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
Posts: 1547
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:12 pm 
 

From what I've seen, they're pretty versatile as well. Not only suited for metal but for other types of music as well. How does the gain/distortion sound on the SS150 when driven hard?

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kingnuuuur
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:35 pm
Posts: 2145
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:32 pm 
 

Sounds beefy and growling without the fizziness of modern high-gain amps like the Mesas, Peaveys, ENGLs, etc... Like this. Pretty much instant Suffocation tone.

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:47 pm 
 

check out some of my links in my profile... aside from draug.

all of them were recorded with ampegSS150's.

additionally
filtheater.bandcamp.com/

http://shokushugoukan.bandcamp.com/
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http://www.cavepaints.com <--Horrid art and musics.
http://www.facebook.com/MaulerCustomCabs <--- huge heavy/loud boxes I build.
http://speedritualrecords.storenvy.com/ Check out my music here

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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
Posts: 1547
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:04 pm 
 

That sounds like a good solid state amp. Most just start to fart when you turn up the volume.

The best solid I've ever tried so far was probably the Roland Jazz Chorus. Obviously not built for metal, but it has a good clean tone. Great to build on with various pedals.

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 12172
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:18 pm 
 

yea, it's never farted out ever.

the ampeg has a great clean tone as well. You can easily do some blues or jazz with it.
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http://www.cavepaints.com <--Horrid art and musics.
http://www.facebook.com/MaulerCustomCabs <--- huge heavy/loud boxes I build.
http://speedritualrecords.storenvy.com/ Check out my music here

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MrTubefox
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:37 pm
Posts: 564
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:08 pm 
 

Mysticaloldbard wrote:
You know, I've tried tabbing out some Disma and I had to tune down to A, I don't think you could achieve a too similar tone with C standard tuning.


Not particularly. Once you get below D or so, the effect of string tension and size on your tone seems to become more and more pronounced.


Also...I don't think the metal zone is what you want for this style, given how fucking tinny it is.
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