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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
Posts: 6701
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:17 pm 
 

Rocka_Rollas wrote:
Dont care a fucking shit. Never cared about Black Sabbath at all.
I know they had a lot of influence of more modern metal, and I KNOW THAT...
But seruoyslt. They never reallt made a real metal album, more like metal songs that would compile into a metal albul. And a fucking awesome one upon that! But for every war pig and black sabbath theres some fucking blues jam nobody cares about....


:lol: drunk rage?
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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
Posts: 10259
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 pm 
 

I think he's serious? He doesn't like Deep Purple either!! :nono:

Markthevictor, ok, I stand corrected...but Dehumanizer was definitely recorded in the UK. ANyway, this stuff just makes me sad for the old-timers who simply can't cut it anymore. Now I'm just hoping that Iommi recovers and that he can record some more music with whoever the hell he wants in the future.
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Vlachos
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:11 am
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:26 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Vlachos wrote:
Um... Forbidden...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk

(I think...)

YOU SUCK MORRIGAN!!

(I wasn't sure either)
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I_Am_Vengeance
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:11 pm
Posts: 1700
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:26 am 
 

Rocka_Rollas wrote:
Dont care a fucking shit. Never cared about Black Sabbath at all.
I know they had a lot of influence of more modern metal, and I KNOW THAT...
But seruoyslt. They never reallt made a real metal album, more like metal songs that would compile into a metal albul. And a fucking awesome one upon that! But for every war pig and black sabbath theres some fucking blues jam nobody cares about....


:ah-ha:
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Goatfangs
Wicker Mantis

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:02 pm
Posts: 2217
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:01 am 
 

Shame to see the Black Sabbath reunion fall through. One thing that really really pisses me off is that they constantly state that this new album will be their first in "33 years"... completely disregards the albums Ronnie James Dio and Tony Martin did. In all, TEN albums since Ozzy had his ass booted from the band. Eleven if "The Devil You Know" counts, and damn straight that counts!

I really hope Tony Iommi gets through his bout with lymphoma. I think that was truly the wrench that unraveled the machine. I think Zodijackyl's point that Bill Ward possibly wanting a contract that would enable him and his family to travel to England for the rehearsal and recording sessions is right on the money. If that's the case, it's possible that the pressure on Ozzy, Geezer and Tony would be great enough to let them work something out for Bill. The latest statement from Bill Ward is most definitely the olive branch, he WANTS to be a part of this reunion as badly as the other three.

The "Ozzy and Friends" thing precludes the possibility that Tony Iommi just might not be well enough for touring in time for the summer. This doesn't mean that the Black Sabbath reunion would be ruined, just that Tony Iommi needs time to recover from this disease.

Speaking of which... what is the status of Tony Iommi? Has he been receptive to treatment and has there been any positive signs that he can be cured of the disease by the end of this year?
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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:38 am 
 

I haven't heard anything about his progress, lack thereof, or otherwise. Virtually all of the Black Sabbath talk recently has been about Bill Ward not participating in the reunion.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:12 am 
 

Vlachos wrote:
YOU SUCK MORRIGAN!!

:D
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WaywardSon
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:48 am
Posts: 903
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:09 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Vlachos wrote:
Um... Forbidden...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk

(I think...)


I figured the smiley would have made it obvious. Meh, I tried. :(

Also, can we get some type of breathalyzer for posting? Rocka_Rollas seems to post a lot of nonsense under the pretense of being "drunk."
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americanholocaust
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:38 pm
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Location: FUCK YEA!!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:16 am 
 

I'm not sure if this news has already circulated in the Archives, but the Black Sabbath Reunion Tour has been downgraded to OZZY AND FRIENDS

Black Sabbath Reunion Tour no more: In the face of internal struggles, including guitarist Tony Iommi's cancer treatment and drummer Bill Ward's continuing contract dispute, the pioneering metal quartet have rebranded their upcoming reunion tour with a somewhat depressing "Ozzy and Friends" banner. According to a report from the Guardian, "and Friends" will include Iommi and Sabbath bassist Geezer Butler, as well as Ozzy Osbourne/Black Label Society guitarist Zakk Wylde and Slash (the latter of whom may be doing a little reuniting of his own with Guns N' Roses later this spring).

With the new deal, all world tour dates Black Sabbath had been planning have been replaced by a paltry 15-date run; five gigs were officially cancelled and now the only official Black Sabbath-billed date still on the books is the U.K.'s Download Festival, which runs June 8-10, and even that will be played sans Ward. Seriously, a tour called "Almost Black Sabbath Reunion Tour" might be less disappointing than another Ozzy-not-Sabbath-branded string of dates.

The band announced their plans to reunite in November for a new album, their first with original frontman Ozzy since 1978, due this fall on Vertigo/Universal, as well as the now-edited world tour. For the moment, however, who knows whether that fall release is still on, as Ward still refuses to join the band on tour at all; the drummer will only record with them when he receives a "signable" contract (and not, as he's said of previous iterations, "disrespectful"), and that hasn't happened yet (at least now we know who Ozzy consider his "Friends").

http://www.spin.com/articles/black-sabb ... nd-friends

Goddamnit what a letdown. I don't give a fuck about practically the same bullshit they have been doing for the past twenty years.
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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:26 pm 
 

So who's drumming for Ozzy and Friends? I am so lost...
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Oddeye
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:24 pm
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:36 pm 
 

I got a mail yesterday from Live Nation about "Ozzy & Friends" replacing Black Sabbath. Really glad they also take refunds.

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americanholocaust
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:38 pm
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Location: FUCK YEA!!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:20 pm 
 

Oddeye wrote:
I got a mail yesterday from Live Nation about "Ozzy & Friends" replacing Black Sabbath. Really glad they also take refunds.


Yeah I would be pretty pissed if I already got tickets and they were being dicks about refunds. I think all of the fans that pull out of the events thanks to the line up change should really show Ozzy and Friends that most people don't give a fuck about seeing their abomination.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:59 pm 
 

Ozzy and Friends :lol: That is the stupidest fucking thing. But also absolutely hilarious at the same time.
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CF_Mono
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:21 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:24 pm 
 

Looks like my ex's dad was right... A real Sabbath reunion will never happen.

Bob you never let me down.
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Seelenfeuer
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:02 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:56 pm 
 

How come this turn of events doesn't surprise me at all? I doubt that we'll ever see a real Black Sabbath reunion unless some of the egos get a serious downsizing after Ozzy & Friends turns out to be a huge flop. Nobody should go see this farce of a reunion.
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Erisgaroth
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:18 am
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Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:32 am 
 

So, it seems that we will never see the original Black Sabbath lineup. What a disgrace! I don't care too much for Ozzy, the only thing that matters is Black Sabbath.

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LegendMaker
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:24 am
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Location: France
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:16 pm 
 

LegendMaker on 08 Feb 2012 wrote:
Everything is going according to plan. Now give it a couple of months weeks and Tony Iommi will be replaced by Zakk Wylde, and we'll be all set.

Here, they proved me right earlier than I had foreseen, so I've fixed my own prediction accordingly.

Lotta Love. O$$y & his Bitche$. :nods:

Spoiler: show
Also, I'm back online. :hail:
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americanholocaust
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:24 pm 
 

LegendMaker wrote:
LegendMaker on 08 Feb 2012 wrote:
Everything is going according to plan. Now give it a couple of months weeks and Tony Iommi will be replaced by Zakk Wylde, and we'll be all set.

Here, they proved me right earlier than I had foreseen, so I've fixed my own prediction accordingly.

Lotta Love. O$$y & his Bitche$. :nods:

Spoiler: show
Also, I'm back online. :hail:


I would say your powers of intuition are amazing, but I feel dumb for having not foreseen this myself.
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Morfiend
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:54 pm
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Location: WA
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:55 pm 
 

So, is this dead now or what?
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Ribos
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:11 am 
 

Apparently "Black Sabbath" is headlining Lollapalooza this year.

1. Black Sabbath does not belong at Lollapalooza ever.
2. Seriously, Black Sabbath and not Ozzy & Friends or whatever. Tony's doing well, I guess.
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Kveldulfr
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Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
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Location: Chile
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:44 am 
 

After seeing Heaven & Hell live, There's nothing that will surpass that experience concerning Sabbath. The original line-up is of course legendary, but since there won't be Ward on it, there's nothing to see here.
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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:56 am 
 

Ribos wrote:
Apparently "Black Sabbath" is headlining Lollapalooza this year.

1. Black Sabbath does not belong at Lollapalooza ever.
2. Seriously, Black Sabbath and not Ozzy & Friends or whatever. Tony's doing well, I guess.


Didn't Ozzy start Ozzfest because he couldn't get onto Lollapalooza? Funny how things work out, eh?
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Morfiend
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:26 pm 
 

I hope a tour still happens, I'd love to see Sabbath one more time...
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MasterKrispy02
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Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:17 pm
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 4:01 pm 
 

Bill Ward has issued what I assume will be the final say on the matter of his participation in Black Sabbath's reunion. I hope the mods do not mind the resurrection of this thread...hopefully not since the last post was only a month ago.

"Dear Sabbath Fans and Fellow Musicians,

I sincerely regret to inform you that after a final effort to participate in the upcoming Sabbath shows a failure to agree has continued. At this time I have to inform you that I won’t be playing with Black Sabbath at the Birmingham gig dated May 19th, 2012, nor will I be playing at Download on June 10th, 2012. Further, I will not be playing at Lollapalooza on August 3, 2012.

It is with a very sad heart that I bring you this news. I am sincerely passionate in my desire to play with the band, and I’m very, very sorry that it’s fallen to this. This statement is even more painstaking to write, as I was particularly excited to play alongside Tony Iommi after the recent treatments he underwent. I wanted that to become a reality.

To express my thoughts about you, the Sabbath fans, I’m going to speak to you all through an experience my brother James had recently. My brother Jimmy lives in the U.K. When speaking with him a couple of days ago, he told me that an acquaintance had stopped him on the street and confronted him, “is your brother playing Birmingham? What’s going on? I waited in line with my son and paid x amount for the concert tickets.”

The man’s son is a young drummer. He’s going to see Sabbath, and he wants to see Bill Ward play drums. Upon hearing this news, I felt horrible. I couldn’t help feeling some resentment towards the failure to reach an agreement, the failure to remember where we came from, the failure to be as brothers, as we once were. To be clear, I’m not blaming the other guys or finding any faults with them. I would think it can’t be easy for them either, but this situation is just really sad. It’s sad that it’s come to this. “This” will surely leave a mark and be unwelcome to the memory. Hopefully “this” will heal and pass in time.

My heart sank when Jimmy told me about this young boy. I know this boy is going to be disappointed, and I don’t know how to amend it, other than to put my arms around the boy and tell him I love him. Sabbath fans have a voice and a face, to me you’re human, you have families and despair. You have ferocity and emotions and graciousness, and at this moment as far as I’m concerned you are also that young boy in England. I don’t know how to amend my part in these failings other than to put my arms around you and say I love you and let you know I’m very, very sorry.

Throughout this process, which began over a year ago, I have had to stand up for myself time and time again. I have had to stand up for myself and in doing so realize my actions indirectly, although unintentionally, are upsetting and hurting a lot of you. I know in my heart I couldn’t have done these concerts by agreeing the terms suggested. I made a solemn vow after the last European and Ozzfest concerts that I would never again enter into what was, in my opinion, a totally unsatisfactory contract. I have to stand for something, and as painful as it is, I’m doing it.

Earlier in April 2012, I’d been asked to participate “minimally” in the Download festival. I believe I’d been offered no more than three songs to play while another drummer presumably played the rest of the show with Black Sabbath. I was not willing to participate in that offer. I was not prepared to watch another drummer play a Sabbath set, while I was to play only three songs.

I found out about the Birmingham gig on Monday, April 30 through the Internet ad. I was taken aback somewhat by the date, and the fact it was Birmingham. Knowing the “signable” contract negotiations were at best in shreds, I was upset by the idea that the band was going to play Birmingham and play it assumedly without me. I had no prior knowledge of the date and location, and I felt totally excluded. We contacted the representative for Black Sabbath to see if something could be worked out. In the meantime my drum crew and I, along with our US endorsers, finished all the necessary planning for a swift departure to the UK. There wasn’t a whole lot to complete; we’d all been on standby more or less since mid-January 2012. The remaining work in the UK was confirmed done by our European and UK endorsers and we were good to go by Friday, May 4 2012. There were two stress points: firstly, getting an agreement in place, and secondly, getting to England in a timely manner. Jetlag time was taken into account as well as drum practice, a drum practice room in the heart of Birmingham, accommodation, and travel arrangements were all in place to meet with any band rehearsals that may have transpired before the Birmingham show. So far everything that had been arranged was on my dime, but we didn’t move ahead without a realistic confirmation.

Communications between the representative and my lawyer continued through the weekend of May 5 finalizing on Wednesday, May 9. The offer we received on May 9 was, “come to the UK, play for free and see how the first show goes.” I was tempted. Playing for free would not have been a problem for me, but “seeing how the first show goes” left an element of risk which could have affected Download. My ideal thought was to play in full the Birmingham show, in full Download, and in full Lollapalooza.

I had notified the representative that May 10 was my cutoff day in order to have good lead-in time for England. On the night of May 9 I asked for a brief letter to be sent to the representative asking to find out if we were at an end. On the morning of Thursday, May 10, I received a reply in the affirmative. After consulting with my advisors and crew a decision was made to let go and stop.

I can’t prioritize the Sabbath fans making one show more important than the other. I can’t do that. All of you are important. It’s all the gigs or none at all. I can’t come to Birmingham and “see what happens” knowing there is a risk of not being able to play Download or Lollapalooza. Again, for me, it’s all or nothing. I had to say “no” to Birmingham on the principle of wanting to play all the shows. Saying no to Birmingham is very difficult for me. My family grew up in Birmingham. Black Sabbath grew up in Birmingham. It’s still my hometown and I resent having to arrive at such a difficult choice.

Although the statement was made that, “the door is always open” for me, as explained above, walking through that door is not always as easy as it sounds. There are many complicated issues and unseen and unspoken agendas on hand. I can assure you, my criteria for a “signable” contract is based in mindful principles, respectability, and acknowledgement of my history within the band.

I hold no malice or resentment towards the other band members. I love them; I’m tolerant of them; I’m frustrated with them, as they may be with me. My fight has never been with them. I’ll love them forever. In my opinion, nobody wins this time; the band doesn’t win; the fans for an original lineup don’t win. Nobody wins, nobody. Even the ones who thought they did.

I didn’t want to make this decision, but I have to be honest and transparent. This is the statement I didn’t want to write; it’s the last thing I wanted to do. But, I have written it, and now it can go into the universe.

Since Spring of 2011, I’ve waited patiently and hopefully for a signable contract, you know the rest. I stand for the boy in the U.K., for the coming drum student, for all the drummers, who write their parts out and get stiffed on the publishing, I stand with the Sabbath fans chanting “Bill Ward” and asking “why?” and I stand with Tony and Geezer and Ozzy.

On a final note, even though I’m at an end with the upcoming announced concerts, I will remain with an open mind and a position of willingness to negotiate “signable” terms with Sabbath’s representatives in the future.

Stay strong.
Stay safe.

With all my heart and strength, I love you,
Bill Ward"

and the link: http://www.billward.com/2012/05/stateme ... ath-shows/

Sad to hear this, but I do respect that Bill is standing up for himself.
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 4:24 pm 
 

The man is doing right. WTF is a reunion show where they'll make him play just 3 songs and/or playing for free and see what happens? Pure bullshit and disrespect.
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macrocosm
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:24 pm 
 

I fucking hope Ozzy is next in line to get cancer.

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Erisgaroth
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:24 am 
 

A total disgrace, so my hope to see the original Black Sabbath is crushed, destroyed...
I have nothing more to say.

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Razakel
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Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:36 pm
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:08 am 
 

Beautifully written, Ward. This is fucking bullshit of the highest caliber. I still don't know who we have to blame for this, but it's just such a damned shame.

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brandon1986
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 2:40 am 
 

ward is doing the right thing, the agreement they wanted to give him was a slap in the face

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orionmetalhead
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:31 am 
 

Much respect to Ward for doing what he felt is right and for standing up against a contract which degrades the history of Black Sabbath. At least someone has some spine still in this world.
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TadGhostal
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:36 am 
 

The thing about Ward being offered only 3 songs at a show make me wonder if a lot of this isn't simply about money but about the other members confidence in Bill's abilities. Word is that they are already demoing some new songs, which means they've been working without Bill. Also, there's recent interview with Vinny Appice floating around where he talks about how the songs for "The Devil You Know" were written by the other guys with a drum machine and he had to record the the drum parts they way they were written with the drum machine. THis makes me wonder if those guys tried to do the same with Bill. I could see that definitely causing friciton with Bill, who's more of free-wheeling, percussionist-style player as opposed to a strict time keeper.

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metalboy1
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 9:56 pm 
 

Good for Bill Ward.

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Kveldulfr
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Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2450
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 7:19 am 
 

Sabbath' answer:

"We have decided not to make any detailed comment on Bill's latest statement. There are two sides to every story. We have been working hard at rehearsals making excellent progress after Tony's treatments and we have engaged a substitute drummer for the forthcoming shows. See you at Download." - taken from https://www.facebook.com/BlackSabbath

Wow. It's incredible how bad they've managed this. Looks like BS is ending its days like scabs. The new album? I won't buy the fucker by any means.
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Abominatrix
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Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:25 am 
 

TadGhostal wrote:
The thing about Ward being offered only 3 songs at a show make me wonder if a lot of this isn't simply about money but about the other members confidence in Bill's abilities. Word is that they are already demoing some new songs, which means they've been working without Bill. Also, there's recent interview with Vinny Appice floating around where he talks about how the songs for "The Devil You Know" were written by the other guys with a drum machine and he had to record the the drum parts they way they were written with the drum machine. THis makes me wonder if those guys tried to do the same with Bill. I could see that definitely causing friciton with Bill, who's more of free-wheeling, percussionist-style player as opposed to a strict time keeper.


Yeah, I was thinking along those lines myself, although I wasn't aware of Vinnie's comments. I don't think it should be too hard for those fellows to adapt to the old way of playing again, but it's been a long time since 1978 and a lot of habits have probably been firmly established in their playing and recording techniques since then. I also remember the studio tracks on reunion featuring a drum machine, at least in part, even though Bill played on the album.
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Hush and hark, without murmur or sigh,
To shoon that tread the lost aeons:
To the sound that bids you to die.

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Ribos
Radioactive Man

Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:10 pm
Posts: 3029
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:37 am 
 

My speculation on the "three songs and we'll see" bit: Bill was way fucked up thanks to his alcoholism back in the day. I can understand some questioning as to whether he is even physically capable of handling a full set. Without further details, I wouldn't be too quick to put the blame on Tony and friends.

They wouldn't do a "three song" deal if it were about money, so something else has to be going on.
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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2450
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 12:09 pm 
 

If they are worried for his performance and nothing else, why not rehearse and see how is he playing? Why not consider him for a studio effort where there won't be problems about stamina since he can record by sections, taking his time and doing all takes he needs? (unless Bill it's completely useless nowadays).

If Bill were to be useless, why they started promoting and SELLING an original line-up reunion in the first place?

Reasons might be countless, but I think the most rational ones are:

1 - Money. No explanation needed (and it was said that Sabbath management didn't want to move Ward and co, paying everything and stuff, but they will do/did for the rest).

2 - Songwriting: While it's clear that Tony it's the mainman, maybe Ward wanted to take part into the songwriting and NOT playing what they told him to play - like they did with Vinnie. Tony could have get used to the drum machine and Ward said: fuck it, I wanna be there in the rehearsal room while we're writing the songs, like we did 40 years ago.

Ribos wrote:
They wouldn't do a "three song" deal if it were about money, so something else has to be going on.


Promoting a 'reunion' gig where one of the founding members will play for free and just 3 songs it's still a reunion gig. It makes all sense to me, where the tickets won't be cheap and the whole money will be shared for 3 instead 4, giving a very small payment to the hired drummer (hey, he might be playing for free too, just for the honor of playing with BS). Furthermore, if Bill wants his share, the rest can say: you just played 3 songs. It's cold but it's possible, especially with Sharon around.
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TadGhostal
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:31 pm
Posts: 830
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:57 pm 
 

Odds are that it's a whole lot of issues that are causing this. Maybe Bill is making some unreasonable demands or maybe the band has severe doubts about his abilities, be it performaning or songwriting. The band should have sort this shit out before making the fucking announcement! No matter the reason, Black Sabbath looks totally stupid in all of this.

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uzilover
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:28 pm
Posts: 199
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:44 pm 
 

http://legacy.roadrunnerrecords.com/bla ... mID=174182

This whole thing just got a lot more farcical!

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Psytopsy
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:27 pm
Posts: 345
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:21 pm 
 

uzilover wrote:
http://legacy.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=174182

This whole thing just got a lot more farcical!
Yes i think that's just childish. cropping him out of band photos? come on now they're not kids.....
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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
Posts: 10259
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:24 pm 
 

Ah, Rock stars....they never mature, they just grow more bitter!
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