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MasterKrispy02
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Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:17 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:32 pm 
 

I just saw this not more than a few moments ago posted on Bill's site:

Dear Sabbath Fans, Fellow Musicians and Interested Parties,

At this time, I would love nothing more than to be able to proceed with the Black Sabbath album and tour. However, I am unable to continue unless a “signable” contract is drawn up; a contract that reflects some dignity and respect toward me as an original member of the band. Last year, I worked diligently in good faith with Tony, Ozzy and Geezer. And on 11/11/11, again in good faith, I participated in the L.A. press conference. Several days ago, after nearly a year of trying to negotiate, another “unsignable” contract was handed to me.

Let me say that although this has put me in some kind of holding pattern, I am packed and ready to leave the U.S. for England. More importantly, I definitely want to play on the album, and I definitely want to tour with Black Sabbath.

Since the news of Tony’s illness, and the understanding that the band would move production to the U.K., I’ve spent everyday getting to or living in a place of readiness to leave. That involves something of a task, and as I’ve tried to find out what’s going on with the U.K. sessions, I’ve realized that I’ve been getting “the cold shoulder” (and, I might add, not for the first time). Feeling somewhat ostracized, my guess is as of today, I will know nothing of what’shappening unless I sign “the unsignable contract.”

The place I’m in feels lousy and lonely because as much as I want to play and participate, I also have to stand for something and not sign on. If I sign as-is, I stand to lose my rights, dignity and respectability as a rock musician. I believe in freedom and freedom of speech. I grew up in a hard rock/metal band. We stood for something then, and we played from the heart with honesty and sincerity. I am in the spirit of integrity, far from the corporate malady, I am real and honest, fair and compassionate.

If I’m replaced, I have to face you, the beloved Sabbath fans. I hope you will not hold me responsible for the failure of an original Black Sabbath lineup as promoted. Without fault finding, I want to assure everyone that my loyalty to Sabbath is intact.

So here I am. I lay my truth down before you. I’m good to go IF I get a “signable” contract. I don’t want to let anyone down, especially Black Sabbath and all the Sabbath fans. You know I love you. It would be a sad day in Rock if this current situation fell to the desires of a few.

My position is not greed-driven. I’m not holding out for a “big piece” of the action (money) like some kind of blackmail deal. I’d like something that recognizes and is reflective of my contributions to the band, including the reunions that started fourteen years ago. After the last tour I vowed to never again sign on to an unreasonable contract. I want a contract that shows some respect to me and my family, a contract that will honor all that I’ve brought to Black Sabbath since its beginning.

That’s the story so far.

Stay safe and stay strong.

I love every single one of you.

–Bill Ward

Here's the link to the page: http://www.billward.com/2012/02/stateme ... lbum-tour/

I think this is really too bad. It just seems wrong if what he's saying is happening is true. Hopefully things are worked out in the end, but we'll just have to wait and see...your thoughts and opinions?
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americanholocaust
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:33 pm 
 

Man it would be awful without Bill. He is my favorite member...
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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:37 pm 
 

Legal problems, uh? Fuck.
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Necroticism174
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:38 pm 
 

They probably just tried to screw him over or something. I respect his decision to bow out if that's the case.
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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:39 pm 
 

Necroticism174 wrote:
They probably just tried to screw him over or something. I respect his decision to bow out if that's the case.

As you say, if that's the case, then more power to him. Still, something smells really bad about this.....
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godsonsafari
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:41 pm 
 

I can't say I'm not surprised to some degree. My guess is that he needs the money less than Geezer - maybe he saved up his pennies and doesn't need to sign a 360 deal with Ozzy's wife?
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americanholocaust
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:47 pm 
 

Even if it is sad though, I have to say.. Good for you, Bill.
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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:52 pm 
 

godsonsafari about Bill Ward's possible motives wrote:
(...) maybe he saved up his pennies and doesn't need to sign a 360 deal with Ozzy's wife Satan?

Yeah, that's also a possibility.
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Necroticism174
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:07 pm 
 

I see what you did there.
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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:10 pm 
 

What? I did absolutely nothing :-P
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Lex Dangler
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:26 pm 
 

Despite his contention in the last paragraph concerning blackmail, it is exactly blackmail by using the fans that want a new recording from the original lineup and a tour, to make the rest of the band and their capitalist cronies feel guilty enough to give him a deal that "Recognizes and is reflective of (his) contributions to the band, including the reunions that started fourteen years ago."

Even as Tony fights a disease (Ward had a heart attack a while back and he's still fat now so maybe they are worried he is a medical liability), these guys are still bickering like petulant little teens and 20 year old's arrogant enough to think they will live forever. Maybe it is that cunt Sharon to some extent, but they all have huge egos. I saw them on their first reunion tour in 1997 and that was awesome and enough for me.

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godsonsafari
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:38 pm 
 

Its not about making them "feel guilty". No one gets anything in contract negotiations if that's the angle they shoot for. Its about trying to get public sentiment on his side to get a better deal, which is the only leverage he has. I'm sure they're offering nothing but a 360 (because that's what EVERYONE gets offered these days), and he's probably never signed one of those in his life and doesn't want to. And he probably shouldn't, either, TBH, because the record is almost certain to recoup costs without the label needing to dip into merch/touring money.
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Ribos
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:19 am 
 

He keeps talking about his contributions, and how he's not the one to blame "if" this results in trouble. YEAH OKAY. Seriously dude, you're not going to be doing anything while Tony's still out of commission, there was no need to make a public statement at this point. You're apologizing for something that hasn't happened... yet.

Bill, if you're feeling shafted in the contract, how about you try telling your band members and the lawyers involved instead of making a populist appeal on facebook? You know, in other words, address the problem instead of just saying "if anything happens, it's not my fault." Because you know what that tells me? It tells me that if anything does go wrong, it IS your fault. It tells me that, at least on a subconscious level, you are expecting this to fail.

I love Bill's drumming on those early Sabbath albums, but honestly, I don't think he's got it in him to play like that nowadays. Not to mention that he's the most replaceable member: Ozzy carries his own fan base, and it's not Sabbath without Tony or Geezer.

tl;dr: Grow up, Bill, stop whining, and learn how to solve problems like an adult.
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americanholocaust
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:28 am 
 

Sorry to be the uninformed one of the discussion, but what is a 360 deal?
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Necroticism174
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:36 am 
 

I believe it's when you pay hundreds of dollars for a console that will crash within a year. Don't quote me on that though.
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americanholocaust
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:47 am 
 

Necroticism174 wrote:
I believe it's when you pay hundreds of dollars for a console that will crash within a year. Don't quote me on that though.

Yeah, pretty sure that is the exact reason why I didn't google it. :lol:
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FredSanford
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:05 am 
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/360_deal

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Razakel
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:43 am 
 

Well this blows ass. First Iommi's illness and now this? Looks like this reunion might be doomed after all. Fingers crossed everything gets sorted out. I need to see this line up of Sabbath live.

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Agroguitarist
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:48 am 
 

It just looks like no-one is keeping him in the loop with what's happening, and offering him less than he feels he deserves.
More fucken power to him, I say.
He's Bill goddamn Ward of Black Sabbath - all four members should have an equal share and an equal say at the outset. Anything less is bullshit of the highest order.

And I think we all know that Ozzy and Tony will be reaping in the big tom compared to Geezer and ol' Bill there....

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americanholocaust
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:56 am 
 

Bill should have more of a say about what goes on and who gets what than Ozzy... Just saying.
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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:42 am 
 

americanholocaust wrote:
Bill should have more of a say about what goes on and who gets what than Ozzy... Just saying.

Ozzy doesn't have a say in all of that. Sharon does.
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Gelal
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:57 am 
 

Without him being more specific about it, I can't tell if he's making fair demands or not, or whether what he's been offered is fair. In any case, I hope whatever problems there are can be solved and the reunion still happens. That, and they schedule more shows around here. There's no way I'm gonna go all the way to the Azkena Rock fest just for Sabbath, even if I had the money and didn't mind spending it for a single band (the rest of the lineup is not my cup of tea, except maybe Lynird if they still are any good).
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Acrobat
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:51 am 
 

To be frank (Bill), this is probably good news for those of us who don't want to see this reunion happening.
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godsonsafari
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:08 am 
 

Someone else already posted a link to the wiki, but in case you don't feel like following it there, the short explanation of a 360 is this: Back in the old days, record companies would pay you X.XX per record unit sold and .XX of each single, and the rest would go back to paying for advertisements, marketing, manufacturing, recording, paying back the advance, blah blah blah. Back in the 2000s, the record industry saw sales go through the floor, so new and establish acts started getting offered 360 contracts, in which the record company takes a percentage of everything you do - merchandise, performance fees, live events, the whole 9. This was a way to recoup income lost when record sales went south. Basically, it sucks for non-established artists big time, because it makes the old Steve Albini equation (the one where you sell 250K units and owe the label money) even worse.
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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:15 am 
 

Those are some really shitty conditions for a contract.
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TadGhostal
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:30 am 
 

Seems odd to me that they'd have made the reunion announcement without having ironed out contract details in advance. We can only speculate what Bill was offered and what he finds "fair", but I suspect he's turning to the fans because he's probably been made to feel like his involvement is the least important. It seems like there is a history of Bill being unhappy with what he's offered (he issued a similar statement about an unfair contract back in '04 or '05).

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death234
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:15 pm 
 

MasterKrispy02 wrote:
I just saw this not more than a few moments ago posted on Bill's site:

Dear Sabbath Fans, Fellow Musicians and Interested Parties,

At this time, I would love nothing more than to be able to proceed with the Black Sabbath album and tour. However, I am unable to continue unless a “signable” contract is drawn up; a contract that reflects some dignity and respect toward me as an original member of the band. Last year, I worked diligently in good faith with Tony, Ozzy and Geezer. And on 11/11/11, again in good faith, I participated in the L.A. press conference. Several days ago, after nearly a year of trying to negotiate, another “unsignable” contract was handed to me.

Let me say that although this has put me in some kind of holding pattern, I am packed and ready to leave the U.S. for England. More importantly, I definitely want to play on the album, and I definitely want to tour with Black Sabbath.

Since the news of Tony’s illness, and the understanding that the band would move production to the U.K., I’ve spent everyday getting to or living in a place of readiness to leave. That involves something of a task, and as I’ve tried to find out what’s going on with the U.K. sessions, I’ve realized that I’ve been getting “the cold shoulder” (and, I might add, not for the first time). Feeling somewhat ostracized, my guess is as of today, I will know nothing of what’shappening unless I sign “the unsignable contract.”

The place I’m in feels lousy and lonely because as much as I want to play and participate, I also have to stand for something and not sign on. If I sign as-is, I stand to lose my rights, dignity and respectability as a rock musician. I believe in freedom and freedom of speech. I grew up in a hard rock/metal band. We stood for something then, and we played from the heart with honesty and sincerity. I am in the spirit of integrity, far from the corporate malady, I am real and honest, fair and compassionate.

If I’m replaced, I have to face you, the beloved Sabbath fans. I hope you will not hold me responsible for the failure of an original Black Sabbath lineup as promoted. Without fault finding, I want to assure everyone that my loyalty to Sabbath is intact.

So here I am. I lay my truth down before you. I’m good to go IF I get a “signable” contract. I don’t want to let anyone down, especially Black Sabbath and all the Sabbath fans. You know I love you. It would be a sad day in Rock if this current situation fell to the desires of a few.

My position is not greed-driven. I’m not holding out for a “big piece” of the action (money) like some kind of blackmail deal. I’d like something that recognizes and is reflective of my contributions to the band, including the reunions that started fourteen years ago. After the last tour I vowed to never again sign on to an unreasonable contract. I want a contract that shows some respect to me and my family, a contract that will honor all that I’ve brought to Black Sabbath since its beginning.

That’s the story so far.

Stay safe and stay strong.

I love every single one of you.

–Bill Ward

Here's the link to the page: http://www.billward.com/2012/02/stateme ... lbum-tour/

I think this is really too bad. It just seems wrong if what he's saying is happening is true. Hopefully things are worked out in the end, but we'll just have to wait and see...your thoughts and opinions?


Maybe my one opportunity to ever see a Black Sabbath reunion tour, GOD DAMIT SOMONE GET THIS MAN A BETTER CONTRACT!

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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:29 pm 
 

Did Heaven And Hell ever have this kind of legal wrangling? I know Bill Ward was originally supposed to play for H&H but it seems like this bullshit only shows up when the Osbournes are around...

At any rate, I hope this gets worked out so that Bill can still be involved in the reunion. As much as I respect Vinny Appice (Who will probably end up being their go-to guy in such a situation), I'd like to hear how Bill is holding up these days.
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Necroticism174
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:40 pm 
 

ANationalAcrobat wrote:
To be frank (Bill), this is probably good news for those of us who don't want to see this reunion happening.


This also. Ozzy sounds like shit these days.
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TadGhostal
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:28 pm 
 

Per the Black Sabbath facebook page:

Quote:
We were saddened to hear yesterday via Facebook that Bill declined publicly to participate in our current Black Sabbath plans...we have no choice but to continue recording without him although our door is always open... We are still in the UK with Tony. Writing and recording the new album and on a roll... See you at Download!!!

- Tony, Ozzy and Geezer


Looks like they aren't interested in playing hardball with Bill.

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Razakel
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:19 pm 
 

As cynical as it is to say, the album they're making probably wouldn't sound any different with Appice (who seems like the obvious fill-in) than it would have with Ward.

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juicebitch
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:46 pm 
 

FUCK man, this really sucks. It would have been great to hear the original and complete Sabbath line-up do a record if only for one last time.

I hope Vinny gets recruited for this, now that Bill has left. I think he's great; I love his "less is more" playing style. Definitely one of my favorite things on the Heaven and Hell record...might even give it a spin now.
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Terminus
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:43 pm 
 

Razakel wrote:
As cynical as it is to say, the album they're making probably wouldn't sound any different with Appice (who seems like the obvious fill-in) than it would have with Ward.


I don't know if Appice is the obvious fill-in. It could've been Dio who talked Appice in, and he might not want to deal with Sharon either.
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FromADistance
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:47 pm 
 

I can smell Sharon all over this.

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Hawksword192
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:41 pm 
 

Mostly likely Bill couldn't actually perform with Sabbath physically and tried finding an out. I don't doubt the contract is probably shitty on his end since he probably didn't write much, but it seems funny that he'd start his diatribe about the contract now rather than before they announced it all.

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Pfuntner
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:28 pm 
 

I imagine that they'll get Vinnie, although knowing Ozzy I wouldn't be surprised if he brought in the drummer from his solo band. Other than that, I have no idea who they'd hire. It'd be cool if they brought in some one fresh or up and coming, but I don't know how close any of their ears are to the ground when it comes to newer music.
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godsonsafari
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:31 pm 
 

They could hire anyone competent and just tell them to do what they ask for more money than anyone else would have paid them. There's a million session musicians out there who are probably technically superior to the likes of Bill Ward.
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americanholocaust
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:03 am 
 

Here you go....

http://www.metalsucks.net/2012/02/03/bl ... bill-ward/
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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:05 am 
 

If I were them, at this point I'd tell Ozzy to go fuck himself, bring back Tony Martin (and find a way to resurrect Cozy Powell) and create a band called Headless Cross.
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americanholocaust
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Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:38 pm
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Location: FUCK YEA!!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:12 am 
 

LOL..

I love the Ozzy Sabbath, but it better sound like just that. None of his solo garbage of the last fifteen years.
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failsafeman wrote:
I'm so stoked someone finally called me a Nazi for my modding. That's an achievement on the Xbox version.

My Ebay Store

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